Unfair Contract Term?

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UpTheIron

Original Poster:

3,992 posts

267 months

Monday 27th June 2016
quotequote all
Hopefully this will be best in here rather than Homes & DIY.

I've just taken delivery of a log cabin (in component form on a large pallet). This particular design has two front-facing windows alongside each door. Unfortunately 3 of the 4 double-glazed units have arrived cracked.

A quick check of the Terms and Conditions of the supplier states that:

Website said:
Glass breakage

All our log cabins are packed very tightly and secure. In the extremely unlikely event you find a crack in the glass please photograph it while it is in the pallet with the pallet and packaging visible and email it to us so a claim can be made against the haulier.

We will ask you to obtain it locally and we will reimburse you the cost of the glass ONLY and like for like. We will not pay for installation of the glass by a glazier as this is very easy to do.

Please note the glass is NOT toughened glass and nor is it required to be for garden buildings in the UK.

Replacement glass is generally £10 – £40 from a glass supplier. It is extremely easy to replace by removing the frame beading. Please source from a local glass supplier and send us the receipt via email.
Whilst perhaps partly my fault for not reading all the Terms & Conditions before purchasing, it strikes me that this term is possibly unfair and therefore perhaps not enforceable?

The headache it gives me is:

- I'm no glazer, so I don't know what spec the glass is, although I assume the supplier can tell me.
- What if I cannot get the same spec - I will have 3 windows that do not match the other 5 that form the front doors & windows of the cabin
- Whilst I am sure replacing it is not beyond me, I will expend my time doing so, and also expense finding a replacement

So... do I have a leg to stand on, or do I just suck it up and send them the bill for glass only as per the terms? If it makes any difference, there was no sign of damage during transit.

As an aside, anybody know a glass supplier in the Welwyn Garden City area, and/or would like to hazard a guess at the cost of a replacement double glazed unit to fit a timber window, I'd guess roughly 18" square?



TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 27th June 2016
quotequote all
UpTheIron said:
- I'm no glazer, so I don't know what spec the glass is, although I assume the supplier can tell me.
Just take the cracked glass in.

UpTheIron said:
- Whilst I am sure replacing it is not beyond me, I will expend my time doing so, and also expense finding a replacement
Sorry, just to confirm... This is a self-assembly flat-pack cabin, right...?

UpTheIron said:
As an aside, anybody know a glass supplier in the Welwyn Garden City area
https://www.yell.com/s/glass+suppliers-welwyn+garden+city.html

UpTheIron said:
and/or would like to hazard a guess at the cost of a replacement double glazed unit to fit a timber window, I'd guess roughly 18" square?
<wet finger in the air>
About £10-40, I'd reckon.

UpTheIron

Original Poster:

3,992 posts

267 months

Monday 27th June 2016
quotequote all
Wow, thanks for the help, I'll consider myself told to stop whinging :-)

Yes it's a flat pack cabin, but why should I spend time and money sourcing and fitting a replacement that arrived broken through no fault of my own?

It does at least look like the cost is indeed in the £10-£40 range, just need to find a recommendation for a local glazer and spend my time and money going back and forth to them, and then fitting the replacements myself. Arse.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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You can probably easily get the glazier to come out to you to fit.

I doubt the T&C clause about you having to pay for the fitting cost would stand up in court. Ultimately it is the suppliers responsibility to repair the damaged item not yours. Get a quote of the total repair cost and email that to the supplier requesting confirmation they will reimburse you. If they do not you have the option of rejecting the goods or taking them to court.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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PurpleMoonlight said:
You can probably easily get the glazier to come out to you to fit.

I doubt the T&C clause about you having to pay for the fitting cost would stand up in court. Ultimately it is the suppliers responsibility to repair the damaged item not yours. Get a quote of the total repair cost and email that to the supplier requesting confirmation they will reimburse you. If they do not you have the option of rejecting the goods or taking them to court.
This is quite correct. It is the supplier's responsibility to supply the item you bought. The T&Cs are not binding. They are attempting to restrict your rights. If the glass is broken, it is not fit for purpose.


98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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UpTheIron said:
Wow, thanks for the help, I'll consider myself told to stop whinging :-)

Yes it's a flat pack cabin, but why should I spend time and money sourcing and fitting a replacement that arrived broken through no fault of my own?
Because life it too short.

They are willing to pay and its simply a matter of going into a local glazier and picking up a new pane.

life can throw these big issue your way every now and then. Sometimes its receiving the news that both your parents have dementia, and the Doctors want to discuss their end of life plan with you. Other times its a broken pane of glass on your new log cabin.

Sometime you just have to soldier through smile

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'd expect them to supply what they said they would. I would expect them to put right any error without a quibble. I would expect them to realise that poor packaging costs them. I'd expect them to do what they said they would and according to the law.

Letting manufacturers get away with shoddy service means that they'll continue to do so. It also means that those who wish to provide a good service will be penalised as they would have to pay for packaging suitable for its task. Their prices would be more because they did what they were supposed to have done.


nikaiyo2

4,672 posts

194 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I'd expect them to supply what they said they would. I would expect them to put right any error without a quibble. I would expect them to realise that poor packaging costs them. I'd expect them to do what they said they would and according to the law.

Letting manufacturers get away with shoddy service means that they'll continue to do so. It also means that those who wish to provide a good service will be penalised as they would have to pay for packaging suitable for its task. Their prices would be more because they did what they were supposed to have done.
I think people need to be realistic, the company is by stating broken glass MUST be reported at the point of delivery, this is entirely reasonable, otherwise where does their liability end?
Is it reasonable for them to pick up the costs of the glass when an IT consultant has tried to carry prefabricated shed bits round to his back garden and dropped them 3 times?
Does it end when the Ad salesman has dropped his hammer through them when attempting to felt the roof?
I know when I helped my mate build his daughters "palace" we broke all the glass fitting it and ended up buying perspex from B&Q.
There is case law, I CBA to find it involving Pilkingtons (I think) from the 70s or 60s.

There are companies that supply and fit garden buildings, this is the hassle free option, you have no worries, it is the full service option. Buying a kit to build yourself is always a trade off between cost and grief.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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nikaiyo2 said:
There are companies that supply and fit garden buildings, this is the hassle free option, you have no worries, it is the full service option. Buying a kit to build yourself is always a trade off between cost and grief.
Massively agree on pragmatism and only putting in the appropriate effort/stress/reward balance. However, if this was a Macbook that arrived with a broken screen, would the advice here be "go down to the Apple shop and buy a replacement"? After all, any person's 3 year old might have grabbed it and dropped it down the stairs.

UpTheIron

Original Poster:

3,992 posts

267 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Indeed pragmatism rules here, and I'm not expecting them to send a fitter and a replacement glass, that would be daft.

On the flip side, it will take me a couple of hours of hassle to sort, including a couple of trips to source the glass.

Given that my rights are broadly in line with what I thought then I'll be suggestion the supplier make a small contribution as a goodwill gesture to cover the hassle.

Yes I bought "off the net", but the item in question was not cheap, nor was it purchased on the basis of price alone - quality and supplier reputation was also behind choosing this supplier.

No I did not use a local supplier - a fairly extensive search did not find a similar product available locally, but my the same argument does that mean my next car must be bought from the local Vauxhall dealer, and if I choose to buy an brand new Aston from a dealer some distance away and have it delivered then if the car arrives broken it's all my fault and I should suck it up? At worst they would cover the total bill at the local dealer...

I'm not going to lose sleep over the thing, but it's valuable drinking time that I'll lose whilst fixing it :-)

@Tonker, if you can remove the existing glass, measure it, arrange and collect the replacements and fit in three minutes the job is yours, call it £60/hour pro-rata? smile

Edited by UpTheIron on Tuesday 28th June 10:32

ging84

8,829 posts

145 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
The real question is do the terms and conditions also say no taksies backsies, because assuming you are buying as a consumer not a business that would not normally be allowed.
If they are saying you can reject the goods and get a full refund, or you can accept them as is and we'll pay for you to source replacement window panes but not fitting, that doesn't seem that unreasonable for something which is already self assembly and presumably vastly cheaper than having one supplied fully built.

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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UpTheIron said:
Indeed pragmatism rules here, and I'm not expecting them to send a fitter and a replacement glass, that would be daft.

On the flip side, it will take me a couple of hours of hassle to sort, including a couple of trips to source the glass.

Given that my rights are broadly in line with what I thought then I'll be suggestion the supplier make a small contribution as a goodwill gesture to cover the hassle.

Yes I bought "off the net", but the item in question was not cheap, nor was it purchased on the basis of price alone - quality and supplier reputation was also behind choosing this supplier.

No I did not use a local supplier - a fairly extensive search did not find a similar product available locally, but my the same argument does that mean my next car must be bought from the local Vauxhall dealer, and if I choose to buy an brand new Aston from a dealer some distance away and have it delivered then if the car arrives broken it's all my fault and I should suck it up? At worst they would cover the total bill at the local dealer...

I'm not going to lose sleep over the thing, but it's valuable drinking time that I'll lose whilst fixing it :-)

@Tonker, if you can remove the existing glass, measure it, arrange and collect the replacements and fit in three minutes the job is yours, call it £60/hour pro-rata? smile

Edited by UpTheIron on Tuesday 28th June 10:32
How many hours (including this post) do you think it will take you to go legal? You've still got to build the sodding thing in the first place tongue out

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
I'd have to chuckle if he began his letter before action..."Dear Sirs, I sit here with my water sodden typewriter in your poorly windowed shed..."

boyse7en

6,671 posts

164 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Massively agree on pragmatism and only putting in the appropriate effort/stress/reward balance. However, if this was a Macbook that arrived with a broken screen, would the advice here be "go down to the Apple shop and buy a replacement"? After all, any person's 3 year old might have grabbed it and dropped it down the stairs.
If I could replace the macbook screen myself, then I would do. It's usually quicker and easier to do it yourself than to package it up, return it to the supplier, wait for a replacement to be sent...

But it's not easy to replace a Mac screen.

It is easy to put a new piece of glass into a shed (certainly for someone who has the tools, skill and inclination to build a shed from a flatpack). If you return the shed and ask for replacement there is as much chance that the next one would come cracked as well

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
While sometimes it is simpler to sort an issue yourself, I think it would get my back up if the retailer basically stated that if there is an issue I had to sort it out and send them a bill for the cost of parts.

That is not how the law works nor how decent businesses treat their customers.

UpTheIron

Original Poster:

3,992 posts

267 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Who said anything about "getting legal"? I just wanted to double check that their statement was not enforceable before I told them that I didn't think much to fixing things that are their responsibility.

As it happens the supplier is shipping out a few replacement timbers to me that were also damaged during transit and in light of the fact it is a number of broken panes they are happy to pay for a glazier to fit and bill them direct.


robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Buy new glass. Fit new glass. Get supplier to reimburse you.. Finish garden cabin. Get a cold beer, sit down, and congratulate yourself.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And, I bet, they've 'come through' to all the others who've received cracked panes. In other words, they've saved themselves money at the expense of their customers.


TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And, I bet, they've 'come through' to all the others who've received cracked panes. In other words, they've saved themselves money at the expense of their customers.
Money that would, otherwise, have gone onto those customer's purchase costs.

I really can't see the problem here.
This is a flat-pack, self-assembly cabin. It is not unreasonable to assume that there will be a degree of assembly competence in the customer.
The panes will be the work of seconds to remove and replace - so the only actual effort on the customer's part will be measuring the old one and taking it to the local glass place. Well, blimey.

TBH, I'm actually surprised they supply the units in the first place, rather than just measurements to get them made locally.

JonV8V

7,177 posts

123 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
The answer is for the supplier to supply the glass but not fitted to the structure and get you to install it as the last step of construction. That should avoid most broken glass issues and make it more reasonable to say "go out and buy replacement glass" if it does get damaged. Either way, to moan about DIY on a DIY build seems a bit petty. Buying it yourself at least puts the timescales in your hands.