Can the curse of modern cars, steering feel, be retrofitted?

[brotherharry]

I thought I had found the answer to my search for 'the one' - characterful engine, rear or 4wd, good noise, properly quick but usable on B-roads, great build, modern tech and quality interior, space for a drumkit, stealthy enough for daily use - in the current Audi RS3 until I drove one and was distinctly underwhelmed by the lack of feel from the handling.

This got me wondering, if the only thing 'wrong' with an RS3 is how un-feeling it is to drive, what would it take to add back the thing that's missing?

This is not a thread about what other vehicles might fit that bill, rather, could the one thing that's missing from cars you'd otherwise buy be engineered back in after-market? Suspension components or geometry, steering rack mods? Tyres?

....

[Daston]

I must say I am kinda in the same boat as you, sadly I can't afford an RS3 for a while yet but it is most certainly at the top of the family car list.

I imagine most of the steering feel to be the result of the power steering system, these are an electronic system are they not? You could swap the shocks and bushes out but that will more than likely just make the car stiffer and ride harder.

[brotherharry]

brotherharry said:

.... what would it take to add back the thing that's missing?....

should have added, without radically altering the other stuff that is right.

[SuperchargedVR6]

brotherharry said:

Suspension components or geometry, steering rack mods? Tyres?

Exactly those things. What sort of feel are you after? One man's granular vibration through the wheel is another man's 'coarseness'.

[brotherharry]

Hmmm, how to quantify 'feel'. Sensation of being connected to the wheels would be a start. Just felt really disconnected.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Daston said:

I must say I am kinda in the same boat as you, sadly I can't afford an RS3 for a while yet but it is most certainly at the top of the family car list.

I imagine most of the steering feel to be the result of the power steering system, these are an electronic system are they not? You could swap the shocks and bushes out but that will more than likely just make the car stiffer and ride harder.

tyres help a bit, the audi OEM conti's are wallowy balloon tyres, fitting MPSS's improves feedback, turn in and tram lining

[TurboHatchback]

I can't really see why you'd want 'steering feel' in a car like an S3. It puts a huge amount of power through its front wheels and is designed to feel fast, comfortable and competent not the last word in sensation. I don't think that wrestling the wheel every time you go over a bump under power would improve the car personally. In a little RWD sports car I want the steering to feel 'tingly' but not so much in a fast AWD luxury car.

[SuperchargedVR6]

brotherharry said:

Hmmm, how to quantify 'feel'. Sensation of being connected to the wheels would be a start. Just felt really disconnected.

Indeed! How to get that connected feel without being thrown around a B road like a drunken Walrus from bump steer, torque steer and tramlining?

The RS3 already has alloy hubs / wishbones and non-voided wishbone bushes, so isn't bad in that department. Variable rack, massive tyres, variable dampers, loads of caster and the other geometry angles are all probably conspiring against your feedback info.

Maybe you could try:

Better tyres - Michelin SuperSports
Poly steering rack and ARB bushes
Track day special spherical bearing top mounts (very noisy!)
A bit more negative camber at the front and some other angles.

That should sharpen things up a bit.

[brotherharry]

TurboHatchback said:

I can't really see why you'd want 'steering feel' in a car like an S3.

because I don't think feel and connection detracts from enjoyment or comfort of a car. Sure, hard as nails race configured suspension or lairy lightweight screaming through the wheel would be too wearing in a daily, but to have nothing appreciable coming through?

Why wouldn't you want it?

[Bodged]

you're never going to get true steering feel in that unless you radically change the suspension geometry and that is going to be very expensive and will void your warranty.

[TurboHatchback]

brotherharry said:

TurboHatchback said:

I can't really see why you'd want 'steering feel' in a car like an S3.

because I don't think feel and connection detracts from enjoyment or comfort of a car. Sure, hard as nails race configured suspension or lairy lightweight screaming through the wheel would be too wearing in a daily, but to have nothing appreciable coming through?

Why wouldn't you want it?

I wouldn't want it because the 'steering feel' will be massively corrupted by the power, if the system was configured to give 'feedback' all you'd get is torque steer, tramlining and vibration etc with little useful or pleasant information being transmitted. It would essentially feel like you were fighting the car rather than working with it.

Of course each to their own, maybe some people like that. Personally if I wanted 'steering feel' I would get something small, light, with little wheels and most importantly RWD as this lends itself much more to engineering in some positive feel (IMHO of course).

[Mike_Mac]

Personally I'm regarding this as EPAS's fault. I can't think of a car yet that I've been in with it that has felt remotely nice to drive compared to something with a hydraulic rack. Some EPAS systems are better than others, but only within the EPAS frame of reference.

Unless you change the whole rack back to HPAS I can't see what else you can do either! I'm resigned to my next car just having a lot less steering feel.

Progress I suppose - saves a few MPG...

[Rick101]

LOTUS

[Bennet]

The weird thing is, apparently it is possible to engineer in steering feel without making it feel frantic.

MK2 Mondeo and MG ZS to name two I've driven. Jaguar X-type to name one I haven't but I've heard is good.

Yet Audi and BMW manage to come up with bone shaking rides and still no steering feel. (Based on the Z4 I drive occasionally and what I read here about Audi.)

[SuperchargedVR6]

Mike_Mac said:

Personally I'm regarding this as EPAS's fault. I can't think of a car yet that I've been in with it that has felt remotely nice to drive compared to something with a hydraulic rack. Some EPAS systems are better than others, but only within the EPAS frame of reference.

Unless you change the whole rack back to HPAS I can't see what else you can do either! I'm resigned to my next car just having a lot less steering feel.

Progress I suppose - saves a few MPG...

What is it about HPAS that provides feedback?

I'm just thinking EPAS still uses the basics of HPAS, i.e. A rack and pinion directly connected to the hubs with ye old fashioned tie rods, which is rigidly or semi-rigidly bolted to a subframe. The only thing that has changed is the method of assistance.

I know these two aren't the epitome of feedback, but EPAS MK5 Golfs have more feedback than HPAS MK4 Golfs. And conversely, EPAS Type Rs are liked less than HPAS type Rs.

I think there's more to it than the steering method, unless it's a horrible 'steering box' that BMWs used.

Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 28th June 15:11

[Mr. Nice Guy]

What happens if you take the fuse out of the EPAS? or turn it off another way? Is that even possible?

[s m]

Bennet said:

The weird thing is, apparently it is possible to engineer in steering feel without making it feel frantic.

MK2 Mondeo and MG ZS to name two I've driven. Jaguar X-type to name one I haven't but I've heard is good.

Yet Audi and BMW manage to come up with bone shaking rides and still no steering feel. (Based on the Z4 I drive occasionally and what I read here about Audi.)

The steering on the X-type was universally praised in the mag reviews for feel.

However, in the recent SOTW article it seemed to be condemned as one of the worst that people had driven so something went wrong there!

[Steven_RW]

My 2007 r56 Mini Cooper S: I replaced the rear wish bone bushes with the polyflex black bushes (very little give). As a result the steering is MUCH more direct.

Those sort of mods can help. Whether that solves all your issues or creates you new ones, I don't have a view. It really depends on what the actual issue is. Too much rubber in the system or the assistance bringing vagueness into the equation.

RW

[k-ink]

Anything can be improved if you spend the time and money on them. For example the Audi TT mk1 had the settings changed at the factory to add more safe understeer. But this can be dialled back out again. A few choice components apparently make a big difference too.

[kambites]

Mr. Nice Guy said:

What happens if you take the fuse out of the EPAS? or turn it off another way? Is that even possible?

The steering gets very, very heavy and even more artificial feeling because you're having to turn the motor by hand.