At last - MPs agree all-lane running is dangerous!
Discussion
skyrover said:
The answer is incredibly clear. It's called hard shoulder.
If your going to widen a road... do it properly, and leave room for future expansion.
We have pointed out the Hard Shoulder option. But it is impossible to get through four lanes of stationary traffic. Not good when you have reports of serious casualties If your going to widen a road... do it properly, and leave room for future expansion.
One way to reduce congestion would be to have more people work from home.
This country seems to be quite bad at uptake to modern concepts and ideas. For example, I could easily do my job from home 4/5 days and go to the office once a week for a catch up with my manager. I do work from home through the night whilst I'm on call, but for some reason I'm expected to work from the office everyday.
I bet a large number of people would be in a similar boat, where you don't need to be in an office but are forced to be for some reason.
Obviously not saying this is suitable for everyone but surely a large number?
This country seems to be quite bad at uptake to modern concepts and ideas. For example, I could easily do my job from home 4/5 days and go to the office once a week for a catch up with my manager. I do work from home through the night whilst I'm on call, but for some reason I'm expected to work from the office everyday.
I bet a large number of people would be in a similar boat, where you don't need to be in an office but are forced to be for some reason.
Obviously not saying this is suitable for everyone but surely a large number?
The Surveyor said:
Riley Blue said:
chasingracecars said:
I hate all lane running on B roads!! Driving that close to the edge scares me!!!
This is being done because half (I recon) drivers on British roads can't drive and wouldn't pass a test. I think these systems work. They are only dangerous because of the idiots that can't drive.
How many severe accidents have there been on managed motorways vs the three lanes with congestion?
Oh yes I get it now, empty hard shoulders can run police down to escort the PM's to tea and cakes at Parliament!
Hard shoulders are where vehicles seek refuge if they breakdown. There have been well reported incidents where drivers have not obeyed 'lane closed' signs and run into stationary vehicles on stretches of all-lane running, most notably the one in which three men were killed by a coach near Toddington services on the M1.This is being done because half (I recon) drivers on British roads can't drive and wouldn't pass a test. I think these systems work. They are only dangerous because of the idiots that can't drive.
How many severe accidents have there been on managed motorways vs the three lanes with congestion?
Oh yes I get it now, empty hard shoulders can run police down to escort the PM's to tea and cakes at Parliament!
Also, there are plenty of duel carriageways throughout the country with the same speed limit as motorways but nobody is demanding that they are widened to include a hard-shoulder. The key is that drivers need to respond accordingly and keep their eyes open and almost expect that there may be a broken down car on the inside.
Ideally roads should be widened of course but sometimes that's not possible for either physical or fiscal reasons.
Banning lorries during the day will never happen, and rightly so!
Changing the law to restrict them to lanes one and two ( or lane one on a two lane motorway) will help free things up.
In addition to this we should implement a minimum speed limit on motorways. 50 mph for lane 1
56 for lane 2
68 for all others (unless we can get an increase in maximum speed)
Changing the law to restrict them to lanes one and two ( or lane one on a two lane motorway) will help free things up.
In addition to this we should implement a minimum speed limit on motorways. 50 mph for lane 1
56 for lane 2
68 for all others (unless we can get an increase in maximum speed)
PoleDriver said:
Banning lorries during the day will never happen, and rightly so!
Changing the law to restrict them to lanes one and two ( or lane one on a two lane motorway) will help free things up.
In addition to this we should implement a minimum speed limit on motorways. 50 mph for lane 1
56 for lane 2
68 for all others (unless we can get an increase in maximum speed)
They are restricted to lanes 1 & 2 on a motorway. Agree with minimum speed limits and dual carriageways though. Changing the law to restrict them to lanes one and two ( or lane one on a two lane motorway) will help free things up.
In addition to this we should implement a minimum speed limit on motorways. 50 mph for lane 1
56 for lane 2
68 for all others (unless we can get an increase in maximum speed)
The types of vehicles not permitted to use the right hand (offside) lane on a motorway, which has three or more lanes open for use by traffic travelling in the same direction are:
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes,
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which exceeds 7.5 tonnes;
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which does not exceed 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter.
a motor vehicle drawing a trailer
a vehicle which is a motor tractor, a light locomotive or a heavy locomotive.
There are exceptions to this rule, which are:
when it is necessary for the vehicle to be driven to enable it to pass another vehicle which is carrying or drawing a load of exceptional width.
for a vehicle to change lane during a period when it would not be reasonably practicable for it to do so without involving danger of injury to any person or inconvenience to other traffic.
PoleDriver said:
Banning lorries during the day will never happen, and rightly so!
Why rightly so? Are you a driver? I'm not against lorries at all but the delivery of non-perishable goods out of peak hours just seems like common sense. Supply chains may have been designed to be efficient but if the consequence of that is an impact on other systems then it should be considered surely?
I think another poster hit the nail on the head. People need to work from home more and travel only when they need to or at the very least business needs to stagger hours. I have a friend who drives 45,000 miles p/a around various sites because 'that's how it is done' but he's only seeing internal people. Madness.
Hitch said:
Lorries should only be allowed to operate between 7pm and 7am. This would be unfortunate for lorry drivers, but that role will be phased out due to automation anyway. It would free up the outside lane for cars (hardly any use it at present) and stop snail racing taking up two lanes and creating barriers which slow people down every mile or two.
That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
I think I said this once before and I seem to recall it wasn't popular, but the law should be changed so that lorries (with whatever weight/size parameters are appropriate; probably all those legally or otherwise speed-governed) should be banned from the outside lane of any road. Places like the 2-lane M26 in Kent, which, eastbound, is slightly uphill for most of it's length, are terrible places for elephant racing. It should have negligible effect on the trucks, they *should* all be limited to the same speed, so if Mr Scania's governor is set at 0.25mph higher than Mr DAF's, suck it up and sit tight. It can cause significant tailbacks for several minutes at times.That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
skyrover said:
Abolish differential speed limits
Modern trucks can stop very well indeed... no need to restrict the to 56mph any more when they are perfectly capable of safe 70mph running
Would they run any faster? Already companies are restricting their lorries to 52 or 50 to save fuel...Modern trucks can stop very well indeed... no need to restrict the to 56mph any more when they are perfectly capable of safe 70mph running
chasingracecars said:
They are restricted to lanes 1 & 2 on a motorway. Agree with minimum speed limits and dual carriageways though.
The types of vehicles not permitted to use the right hand (offside) lane on a motorway, which has three or more lanes open for use by traffic travelling in the same direction are:
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes,
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which exceeds 7.5 tonnes;
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which does not exceed 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter.
a motor vehicle drawing a trailer
a vehicle which is a motor tractor, a light locomotive or a heavy locomotive.
There are exceptions to this rule, which are:
when it is necessary for the vehicle to be driven to enable it to pass another vehicle which is carrying or drawing a load of exceptional width.
for a vehicle to change lane during a period when it would not be reasonably practicable for it to do so without involving danger of injury to any person or inconvenience to other traffic.
No. They are restricted to all lanes but the right hand one.The types of vehicles not permitted to use the right hand (offside) lane on a motorway, which has three or more lanes open for use by traffic travelling in the same direction are:
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes,
a goods vehicle having a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which exceeds 7.5 tonnes;
a passenger vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver the maximum laden weight of which does not exceed 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter.
a motor vehicle drawing a trailer
a vehicle which is a motor tractor, a light locomotive or a heavy locomotive.
There are exceptions to this rule, which are:
when it is necessary for the vehicle to be driven to enable it to pass another vehicle which is carrying or drawing a load of exceptional width.
for a vehicle to change lane during a period when it would not be reasonably practicable for it to do so without involving danger of injury to any person or inconvenience to other traffic.
So on a four lane motorway they can (and do) use lanes 1, 2 and 3
Europa1 said:
PositronicRay said:
Hitch said:
Lorries should only be allowed to operate between 7pm and 7am. This would be unfortunate for lorry drivers, but that role will be phased out due to automation anyway. It would free up the outside lane for cars (hardly any use it at present) and stop snail racing taking up two lanes and creating barriers which slow people down every mile or two.
That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
This is ridiculous. Lorry drives overnight waits for a business to open, tips his partial load. Then stuck during daylight hours, drives to next drop, waits until until open, then stuck again. That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
As I understand it, many areas have restrictions on night time deliveries due to the noise it would create near residential areas. People want lorries banned from cities during the day as well because of the danger they supposedly present to cyclists. The problem is, the more commercial activity there is during the night, the more traffic there will be at night. We'll just have danger and congestion on the road at night as well as during the day.
The article makes a distinction between smart motorways where the hard shoulder is opened at busy times and the newer All Lanes Running smart motorways where the hard shoulder is removed completely and made into an extra lane. The likes of the AA and RAC seem to think occasional use of the hard shoulder is acceptable and safe.
The problem remains that, when the hard shoulder is in use as an extra lane, there is the potential for stationary traffic in it and in the event of an accident it's blocked to emergency services. The M60 around Manchester is being turned into a smart motorway and a minor shunt between two lorries resulted in it being closed all day because the lorries couldn't be moved. That disrupted the airport because the main route to it for passengers, staff and deliveries was blocked.
Dual carriageways that carry motorway levels of traffic tend to be upgraded, such as the A1. Motorways are supposed to be safer and more advanced roads so making them like older, less advanced roads isn't really a sensible course of action for our future.
The article makes a distinction between smart motorways where the hard shoulder is opened at busy times and the newer All Lanes Running smart motorways where the hard shoulder is removed completely and made into an extra lane. The likes of the AA and RAC seem to think occasional use of the hard shoulder is acceptable and safe.
The problem remains that, when the hard shoulder is in use as an extra lane, there is the potential for stationary traffic in it and in the event of an accident it's blocked to emergency services. The M60 around Manchester is being turned into a smart motorway and a minor shunt between two lorries resulted in it being closed all day because the lorries couldn't be moved. That disrupted the airport because the main route to it for passengers, staff and deliveries was blocked.
Dual carriageways that carry motorway levels of traffic tend to be upgraded, such as the A1. Motorways are supposed to be safer and more advanced roads so making them like older, less advanced roads isn't really a sensible course of action for our future.
V8RX7 said:
Europa1 said:
PositronicRay said:
Hitch said:
Lorries should only be allowed to operate between 7pm and 7am. This would be unfortunate for lorry drivers, but that role will be phased out due to automation anyway. It would free up the outside lane for cars (hardly any use it at present) and stop snail racing taking up two lanes and creating barriers which slow people down every mile or two.
That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
This is ridiculous. Lorry drives overnight waits for a business to open, tips his partial load. Then stuck during daylight hours, drives to next drop, waits until until open, then stuck again. That and these ridiculously expensive automated motorways should be designed to enforce speed, tailgating and keeping left unless overtaking. That can't be that hard can it?
People who can get to a train station? Perhaps we should stagger company start times, all the companies beginning with A at 7? Maybe all the company cars between 5 and 6, then the personally owned 7 till 8?
Or accept that the issue is a bit more complicated than a few lorries and many cars at a certain time?
I don't think its the motorways that are actually the problem, its the roads leading directly off of them.
I often see exit slip roads full of queuing cars, often they are waiting for lights at a roundabout.
Quite often the queue spills back in to the inside lane of the motorway.
This has a direct effect on traffic on the motorway, because the traffic in lane 1 slows down, some cars remaining on the motorway jump in to lane 2 at low speed to avoid the slow cars/queue, everyone already in lane 2 check up, some move to lane 3, those in lane 3 check up, suddenly everyone is doing 40mph, the ripple effect goes backwards and a mile or two before the exit the traffic is at a halt.
At the same time you have the jonny come latelys trying to hop from lanes 2 and 3 through 1 to get on to the slip road, they also cause lanes 2 and 3 to slow as they try and match their speed to join the lane to their left.
So partly driver education to get in the right lane early would help. What can be done to help the roads that lead off of slip roads, I'm not sure.
The other thing I've noticed is on slips being screwed about with, see here : https://goo.gl/maps/MK7268jEa582
This used to be a normal two lane on slip, the roadworks you see has added another lane around the roundabout to create a feeder lane from the previous roundabout junction on to the slip road so traffic coming from that exit doesn't have to stop at the roundabout.
The line of cones have been replaced by a dividing kerb followed by chevrons, so you can't cross in to the inside lane of the slip road from the roundabout (if you advance forwards the kerb appears int he next frame), the two lanes on the roundabout in the foreground have to merge in to the outside lane of the slip road as it turns, this combined with the slope causes slow traffic in the outside lane of the slip road which then has to join the motorway, it causes inside lane traffic already on the motorway to check up.
The irony is there is far more traffic coming around the roundabout than uses the feeder lane, so while everyone jostles in the outside lane of the slip trying to merge the inside lane of the slip road is empty - once you've managed the merge the dividing kerb is gone and you can move in to the inside lane of the slip road, but the damage is then done.
I can't for the life if me see why someone thought it was a good idea.
I often see exit slip roads full of queuing cars, often they are waiting for lights at a roundabout.
Quite often the queue spills back in to the inside lane of the motorway.
This has a direct effect on traffic on the motorway, because the traffic in lane 1 slows down, some cars remaining on the motorway jump in to lane 2 at low speed to avoid the slow cars/queue, everyone already in lane 2 check up, some move to lane 3, those in lane 3 check up, suddenly everyone is doing 40mph, the ripple effect goes backwards and a mile or two before the exit the traffic is at a halt.
At the same time you have the jonny come latelys trying to hop from lanes 2 and 3 through 1 to get on to the slip road, they also cause lanes 2 and 3 to slow as they try and match their speed to join the lane to their left.
So partly driver education to get in the right lane early would help. What can be done to help the roads that lead off of slip roads, I'm not sure.
The other thing I've noticed is on slips being screwed about with, see here : https://goo.gl/maps/MK7268jEa582
This used to be a normal two lane on slip, the roadworks you see has added another lane around the roundabout to create a feeder lane from the previous roundabout junction on to the slip road so traffic coming from that exit doesn't have to stop at the roundabout.
The line of cones have been replaced by a dividing kerb followed by chevrons, so you can't cross in to the inside lane of the slip road from the roundabout (if you advance forwards the kerb appears int he next frame), the two lanes on the roundabout in the foreground have to merge in to the outside lane of the slip road as it turns, this combined with the slope causes slow traffic in the outside lane of the slip road which then has to join the motorway, it causes inside lane traffic already on the motorway to check up.
The irony is there is far more traffic coming around the roundabout than uses the feeder lane, so while everyone jostles in the outside lane of the slip trying to merge the inside lane of the slip road is empty - once you've managed the merge the dividing kerb is gone and you can move in to the inside lane of the slip road, but the damage is then done.
I can't for the life if me see why someone thought it was a good idea.
chasingracecars said:
They are restricted to lanes 1 & 2 on a motorway. .
.
Only on 3 lane motorways, they cannot use the outer lane, so they clog up 4 and 5 lane motorways!.
Parts of the M25 and M1 are really clogged up by lorries in lane 3 when they could easily keep to the other 2. People driving at 50 or less just make matters worse, forcing the lorries out to the 'faster' lanes.
Edited by PoleDriver on Saturday 2nd July 11:58
Hitch said:
PoleDriver said:
Banning lorries during the day will never happen, and rightly so!
Why rightly so? Are you a driver? I'm not against lorries at all but the delivery of non-perishable goods out of peak hours just seems like common sense. Supply chains may have been designed to be efficient but if the consequence of that is an impact on other systems then it should be considered surely?
I think another poster hit the nail on the head. People need to work from home more and travel only when they need to or at the very least business needs to stagger hours. I have a friend who drives 45,000 miles p/a around various sites because 'that's how it is done' but he's only seeing internal people. Madness.
I drive cars!
Re introduce the fast & slow lanes naming, there was a reason it was originally called so.
Introduce a License cull with the middle laners being banned off the road for good.
Ban elephant racing at peak times as per much of Europe is doing
Police the road networks much much more than currently
Introduce a License cull with the middle laners being banned off the road for good.
Ban elephant racing at peak times as per much of Europe is doing
Police the road networks much much more than currently
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