Fatal Tesla crash, software based issue?
Discussion
Hmm, as much as I dislike Tesla's attitude on occasion, I don't see how any sort of blame can be aimed at them for this.
By the sounds of it, one idiot turns on his cruise control and then settles down to watch TV(!) then another idiot pulls out in front of him and the cruise control doesn't manage to stop the car in time... there's at least two things more to blame than the car in that scenario.
The only thing you can perhaps blame Tesla for is giving their feature a rather misleading name.
By the sounds of it, one idiot turns on his cruise control and then settles down to watch TV(!) then another idiot pulls out in front of him and the cruise control doesn't manage to stop the car in time... there's at least two things more to blame than the car in that scenario.
The only thing you can perhaps blame Tesla for is giving their feature a rather misleading name.
For those that cite Tesla calling it "Autopilot" is tantamount to culpability... are there any pilots on here who could clarify what "Autopilot" on an aircraft means to them? My assumption would be that they still expect to be "in control" and therefore responsible for the safety of the aircraft. My point being, therefore, even if the general push is that "the name is to blame" (I sense a headline there 
), it's actually the interpretation of the name that is to blame. Not as catchy, granted but moves the onus, IMHO, to the user/owner/driver/pilot/top-gun/maverick/goose/homosexual-undertones.
), it's actually the interpretation of the name that is to blame. Not as catchy, granted but moves the onus, IMHO, to the user/owner/driver/pilot/top-gun/maverick/goose/homosexual-undertones.RobDickinson said:
On any given day 90 other people die on US roads not using self driving cars..
The accident here was caused by poor driving from the truck driver turning in front of oncoming traffic.
Could the tesla have avoided it? Could a human driver paying attention avoided it?
Not every accident is avoidable.
Absolutely, kill and maim thousands on the roads every year and nobody bats an eyelid, technology possibly gets it wrong once and it should be banned ! The accident here was caused by poor driving from the truck driver turning in front of oncoming traffic.
Could the tesla have avoided it? Could a human driver paying attention avoided it?
Not every accident is avoidable.
Price of progress, people will still die in cars as long as we choose to hurtle round at high speed in tin boxes, this is about mitigating the risk and reducing deaths and injuries, a tesla is still one of the safest cars on the road nod the tech will improve rapidly
Is that the first fatality in a tesla, ? Thousands out there.
Wikipedia defines it thus:
Wikipedia said:
An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of a vehicle without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace a human operator, but assist them in controlling the vehicle, allowing them to focus on broader aspects of operation,...
I'm a bit torn on this one - my first reaction was the driver was at fault. Ultimately, he's got to be in control of the car, and should be paying enough attention to override the autopilot if necessary.
However, if he's been in this situation before, and the car has responded correctly before, how would he know it's not going to do the right thing here? Is it any different to me 'knowing' that the brakes on my car will stop me from a certain speed in a certain distance and driving accordingly? I don't drive my car expecting brake failure, I drive it expecting it to behave in the same way it did yesterday, and it could be that the Tesla driver used autopilot with similar expectations.
However, if he's been in this situation before, and the car has responded correctly before, how would he know it's not going to do the right thing here? Is it any different to me 'knowing' that the brakes on my car will stop me from a certain speed in a certain distance and driving accordingly? I don't drive my car expecting brake failure, I drive it expecting it to behave in the same way it did yesterday, and it could be that the Tesla driver used autopilot with similar expectations.
A couple of months ago I was a passenger in a new XC90 with built in crash avoidance that had a low speed crash thanks to driver error - the system had disabled itself thanks to a dirty camera/sensor on the front. While the driver of the XC90 immediately admitted responsibility - he pulled out into a car he didn't see that was turning across him into the street we were pulling out of - it does demonstrate first hand that these systems are not infallible.
Even the Tesla system is still a driver assistance tool, rather than the driver assisting the car when required, which seems to be the way Tesla drivers are treating it.
Elon Musk replied to a tweet this morning saying that a Tesla cannot scan up high for the side of trucks as it would see overhead traffic gantries and bridges as an obstruction.
Even the Tesla system is still a driver assistance tool, rather than the driver assisting the car when required, which seems to be the way Tesla drivers are treating it.
Elon Musk replied to a tweet this morning saying that a Tesla cannot scan up high for the side of trucks as it would see overhead traffic gantries and bridges as an obstruction.
Edited by Emeye on Friday 1st July 09:24
So the radar is pointing toward the ground and it didn't detect the trailer/truck as it didn't have safety bars on the back of the trailer/truck and the on board camera(s) didn't detect the truck as it was white on a bright background?
I'd rather they forced all trucks/trailers to have rear and side safety bars, the risk to all cars/bikes to submarine under a trailer/truck without them should make it common sense to mandate that they are fitted?
I think we also need a mandatory driving course for driver assistance, I'm not convinced the majority know the limitations of the systems.
I'd rather they forced all trucks/trailers to have rear and side safety bars, the risk to all cars/bikes to submarine under a trailer/truck without them should make it common sense to mandate that they are fitted?
I think we also need a mandatory driving course for driver assistance, I'm not convinced the majority know the limitations of the systems.
The Model S manual is plastered with warnings. I'm sure that won't stop Tesla from being sued but hey
Tesla said:
- Warning: Do not depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately and appropriately slow down Model S. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to brake at all times. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not eliminate the need to apply the brakes as needed, even at slow speeds.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can not detect all objects and may not detect a stationary vehicle or other object in the lane of travel. There may be situations in which Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not detect a vehicle, bicycle, or pedestrian. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model S to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may misjudge the distance from a vehicle ahead. Always watch the road in front of you. It is the driver's responsibility to maintain a safe distance from a vehicle ahead of you.
- Warning: When you enable Traffic-Aware Cruise Control in a situation where you are closely following the vehicle in front of you, Model S may apply the brakes to maintain the selected distance.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control has limited deceleration ability and may be unable to apply enough braking to avoid a collision if a vehicle in front slows suddenly, or if a vehicle enters your driving lane in front of you. Never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow down the vehicle enough to prevent a collision. Always keep your eyes on the road when driving and be prepared to take corrective action as needed. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow the vehicle down enough to prevent a collision can result in serious injury or death.
- Warning: Driving downhill can increase driving speed, causing Model S to exceed your set speed. Hills can also make it more difficult for Model S to slow down enough to maintain the chosen following distance from the vehicle ahead.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally brake Model S when not required based on the distance from a vehicle ahead. This can be caused by vehicles in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), or by stationary objects.
- Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is particularly unlikely to operate as intended in the following types of situations:
- The road has sharp curves.
- Visibility is poor (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
- Bright light (oncoming headlights or direct sunlight) is interfering with the camera's view.
- The radar sensor in the center of the front grill is obstructed (dirty, covered, etc.).
- The windshield area in the camera's field of view is obstructed (fogged over, dirty, covered by a sticker, etc.).
- Caution: If your Model S is equipped with Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, you must take your vehicle to Tesla Service if a windshield replacement is needed. Failure to do so can cause Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to malfunction.
- Warning: Many unforeseen circumstances can impair the operation of Traffic-Aware Cruise Control. Always keep this in mind and remember that as a result, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not slow down or may brake or accelerate Model S inappropriately. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.
- Warning: Traffic-aware cruise control may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
Terribly sad, but hopefully it will put a stop to further development into this whole dead end. Why do I say dead end? Read on. .... Under those exact conditions all of those cars will make the same mistake. Until the software/hardware is updated on all of them. They now ALL have to be updated. Put 100 humans into the same situation and yes, some would make the same mistake. Some wouldn't. The fault lies with the individual. Only the individuals who make the mistake have the fault. People cry "AAAh, but what about when the autonomous machines make less mistakes in 100 different scenarios than a sample of 100 humans would?" That not the point. Find the one scenario where ALL the machines make the same mistake and then its a re-engineering recall on ALL of them. Then there's the legal aspect. Tesla engineered this machine. Had a human made the mistake, the bereaved family might be able to sue the individual, his estate until there is literally nothing left, but it stops there, they can't go after money from all the other humans who would have made the same mistake. But in this case? and the next, and the next - hence I'm pretty confident that this nonsense will end soon. Its not about how good the tech is, its about breadth of culpability.
EricE said:
The Model S manual is plastered with warnings. I'm sure that won't stop Tesla from being sued but hey
So......given all of the above, what's the point of it.Tesla said:
- Warning: Do not depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately and appropriately slow down Model S. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to brake at all times. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not eliminate the need to apply the brakes as needed, even at slow speeds.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can not detect all objects and may not detect a stationary vehicle or other object in the lane of travel. There may be situations in which Traffic-Aware Cruise Control does not detect a vehicle, bicycle, or pedestrian. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model S to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may misjudge the distance from a vehicle ahead. Always watch the road in front of you. It is the driver's responsibility to maintain a safe distance from a vehicle ahead of you.
- Warning: When you enable Traffic-Aware Cruise Control in a situation where you are closely following the vehicle in front of you, Model S may apply the brakes to maintain the selected distance.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control has limited deceleration ability and may be unable to apply enough braking to avoid a collision if a vehicle in front slows suddenly, or if a vehicle enters your driving lane in front of you. Never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow down the vehicle enough to prevent a collision. Always keep your eyes on the road when driving and be prepared to take corrective action as needed. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow the vehicle down enough to prevent a collision can result in serious injury or death.
- Warning: Driving downhill can increase driving speed, causing Model S to exceed your set speed. Hills can also make it more difficult for Model S to slow down enough to maintain the chosen following distance from the vehicle ahead.
- Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally brake Model S when not required based on the distance from a vehicle ahead. This can be caused by vehicles in adjacent lanes (especially on curves), or by stationary objects.
- Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is particularly unlikely to operate as intended in the following types of situations:
- The road has sharp curves.
- Visibility is poor (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
- Bright light (oncoming headlights or direct sunlight) is interfering with the camera's view.
- The radar sensor in the center of the front grill is obstructed (dirty, covered, etc.).
- The windshield area in the camera's field of view is obstructed (fogged over, dirty, covered by a sticker, etc.).
- Caution: If your Model S is equipped with Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, you must take your vehicle to Tesla Service if a windshield replacement is needed. Failure to do so can cause Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to malfunction.
- Warning: Many unforeseen circumstances can impair the operation of Traffic-Aware Cruise Control. Always keep this in mind and remember that as a result, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may not slow down or may brake or accelerate Model S inappropriately. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.
- Warning: Traffic-aware cruise control may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death.
Technology for technologies sake, and the average muppet behind the wheel won't understand any of that, and will always think its something it isn't, as probably evidence by this incident. And I'm sure this will just be the first of many to come.
The aviation industry is starting to see the issues/pitfalls of complacency and 'relying' on technology, and yet the car industry will blindly follow suit.
There's seems no stopping the stupidity of man in pursuit of technology to promote laziness in the human race.
Imagine a car with two sets of controls and two human drivers, so LHD and RHD simultaneously. You've been driving for a couple of hours and haven't needed to do anything for a long time because the guy with the other set of controls seems to be doing everything OK. Would you be able to maintain your concentration at full driving level "just in case"?
That to me is the biggest problem with autonomous cars. They're not autonomous. They're semi-autonomous.
That to me is the biggest problem with autonomous cars. They're not autonomous. They're semi-autonomous.
The whole idea of self steering and braking cars is, IMHO massively flawed. Emergency systems on cars that some don't even know about is one thing, but something like this autopilot is too far. As this dead guys says in his vid, "it takes all the stress away, it may be slower etc" Great, but sadly, it is that "stress" ie the level of concentration and ability to react / produce homrmones that may well mean this guy would be alive today.
And it is entirely possible that this investigation will say, "human error" ie he was not using it as intended..well saldly if that is true then therein lies the fundamental issue with it...
It should be banned, it is absurd. And if you don't want to actively steer or drive your car, take the f
king bus.
And it is entirely possible that this investigation will say, "human error" ie he was not using it as intended..well saldly if that is true then therein lies the fundamental issue with it...
It should be banned, it is absurd. And if you don't want to actively steer or drive your car, take the f
king bus. RobDickinson said:
Updating all of them is piss easy they do it overnight wirelessly.
Appreciate that - but how long will it take to re-engineer for this scenario? How will the update integrate with existing software. How will it integrate with previous updates - look at windows updates. What if its a hardware issue?, Plus there's hardly any of them about at the moment, Imagine how many new situations will have to be accounted for when there are 00000s of them. I'm envisioning a lot of late for work people because the car wouldn't start until the latest patch had installed.Edited by slybynight on Friday 1st July 10:00
Ozzie Osmond said:
Imagine a car with two sets of controls and two human drivers, so LHD and RHD simultaneously. You've been driving for a couple of hours and haven't needed to do anything for a long time because the guy with the other set of controls seems to be doing everything OK. Would you be able to maintain your concentration at full driving level "just in case"?
That to me is the biggest problem with autonomous cars. They're not autonomous. They're semi-autonomous.
That's my concern as well. When humans have nothing to do they get bored, and they get distracted. Many people can't drive down the road now without checking facebook, so how bad will it be when you potentially have nothing to do for hours at a time?That to me is the biggest problem with autonomous cars. They're not autonomous. They're semi-autonomous.
aeropilot said:
'relying' on technology
We all 'rely on technology' in a thousand different ways, all day, every day, and people get killed or injured when technology fails. Which technologies should we decide to stop developing, if something goes wrong, and which should we pursue?Multiple spectators were killed by one of the very first steam locomotives in 1815, should we have stopped there?
kambites said:
Wikipedia defines it thus:
We don't need to focus on broader aspects of operation.Wikipedia said:
An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of a vehicle without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace a human operator, but assist them in controlling the vehicle, allowing them to focus on broader aspects of operation,...
It's not a f
king Learjet.Anyway, shame the guy died. But it's not really Tesla's fault.
Move on .
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff