Young people and sensible boring saloons

[FN2TypeR]

AC43 said:

PhilGT2008 said:

Exactly why I still also have my 10 year old Deep Blue Pearl V6 Golf R32. Still turning heads in 2016.

Timeless, great all rounder, fantastic to look at, great noise.

A friend of mine has one with an unresonated Millitek exhaust fitted, it sounds amazing on full chat,

[JakeT]

I drive a 3 series and I am 20... It is an old 325ti which didn't cost me a whole load, and I bought it because it is RWD, manual and has a straight six. Also, my Golf GTi was really boring, and cost more to run. I was looking at Vauxhall omegas to run during my final year of university after my year in industry, but I bought a shed of a 3 series compact... Because it was £100 with MOT until feb. The badge doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I could lease a Golf R or something like that... But I want a house before I am 30... Boring...

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

I had £10,000 deposit.
At the time I earned £28k a year.
The most I could get a mortgage for was for approx £125,000.

Either you were a victim of the credit crunch (poor timing), or there were underlying issues with your credit risk rating.
In the current climate, with the above figures, you could have easily bought something at £150k. Monthly repayment would be less than £700/mth over 25yrs - comfortably affordable with a take-home of over £2300/mth (less than a third!).
If the AVERAGE house price where you live is £220k, a one-bed starter home would be in reach at that sort of level. It might not be your dream home, but it would represent independence if that was your priority.

xjay1337 said:

I could, if I didn't spend all the money I have done on my car over the last 3 or 4 years, probably be in a house.
But I would have very little money for anything else, I would be driving a £500 15 year old barge and struggling to get by on the day to day.

That's called compromise. It's what people do when they have a priority - yours was clearly p*ssing money up the wall on 'modding' a VW.
If it was that much of a priority, you wouldn't be doing "pleasure activities" or "pleasure travel". You wouldn't have Netflix or go out to the cinema. Personally I'd be mortified if I had spent so much on 'modding' a car, but could only afford to live as someone's lodger - but that's a matter of personal preference.

Yes, it's inherently more difficult to do it solo. But not for any of the reasons you've listed.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:08

[swisstoni]

It's crap when you are young. You'd look great in a Ferrari but they are usually the preserve of old geezers who can finally afford them or monied wkers.

[C70R]

swisstoni said:

It's crap when you are young. You'd look great in a Ferrari but they are usually the preserve of old geezers who can finally afford them or monied wkers.

Absolutely the thought that went through my mind when I saw a 50-something bloke's back-mullet flapping in the breeze as his F430 passed me the other day.

[funkyrobot]

xjay1337 said:

A few years ago I was looking at buying a house, by myself.

I had £10,000 deposit.
At the time I earned £28k a year.
The most I could get a mortgage for was for approx £125,000.

I was forced to move out at 18, so I've been paying between £400 and £550 to rent basically a room in various houseshares over the years. Some of my friends are lucky and live at home with Mummy and Daddy but lots of my friends are also living in rented accommodation, mainly due to pressures from parents and hushed wispers - "move out move out"
Currently I lodge with a very nice family and have done for nearly 2 years.
Next week I get the keys to a rented house with my Mrs , this is £800pcm.

It's not quite as simple and clear cut as you make out.

I could, if I didn't spend all the money I have done on my car over the last 3 or 4 years, probably be in a house.
But I would have very little money for anything else, I would be driving a £500 15 year old barge and struggling to get by on the day to day.
I would love a house but I don't think it's feasible without serious help from mine / my Mrs parents. The problem isn't the monthly outgoings on a mortgage it's the deposit needed to get a mortgage for £500-£700 a month. And that would be a LOT more than 5% (try 30-40%).

Around where I live (Newbury) the average house price is about £220k and even for that you are scraping the bottom of the acceptable barrel.
Even assuming a £40k deposit (that's a 82% LTV) .

You're looking at 2 years @ £753 (1.89%) and then remainder at 3.74% variable @ £911 a month plus a grand setup fee that is a LOT of money.

Let's assume you take home £2k a month (easy sums)
You currently rent £750 (typical price for newbury for an average flat/house)
Your council tax, leccy, internet, utilities etc come in at £180
Your food comes to £120 a month (excluding work lunches)
You have a car (perfectly reasonable) @ £200 a month
Your car tax is £20 a month (again pretty average)
car insurance is another £100 a month (again pretty average)
You have a phone bill @ £30 a month
You have Netflix at £8 a month
Your commute to work costs you £50 a week in fuel.
You treat yourself and your Mrs to dinner out once a fortnight at £50
Movie night at Cinema £25
You maybe buy a couple of albums each month - £15

So straight away your £2k is down to a shade over £450. That's without putting any money in savings, or having to repair your car when/if it breaks, or any other pleasure activities.
Let's assume you are really boring and never do anything else other than the above (no days out, no holidays, weekends away etc). Assume you never need to buy tyres or service your car, nothing ever breaks.


To build up £20k deposit (assuming you and your Mrs both earn the same) so that's your half
That's 44 months... 3 1/2 years.
Double that if you're on your own.

It really isn't that easy.





That's without any other costs EG pleasure travel ,

You could cut out the cinema, the albums, the meals out, Netflix etc. You could cut your phone bill down (mine is £12.50 a month). You save money on your food. Of all of this though, you could save a lot by not spunking it on a VW.

You are like many others who complain that getting a house is nigh on impossible.

It isn't easy (I went through the pain and managed to finally buy three years ago). However, it can be done. You just need to adjust.

You say you are moving in with your missus. Wouldn't the combined income make a house purchase even more affordable?

Edited to add - would you rather have a barried up VW on your rented or parent's drive, or a banger on your own drive?

Edited by funkyrobot on Thursday 20th October 16:16

[S10GTA]

xjay1337 said:

I would be driving a £500 15 year old barge and struggling to get by on the day to day.

Let's assume you take home £2k a month (easy sums)

You have a car (perfectly reasonable) @ £200 a month

car insurance is another £100 a month (again pretty average)

You have a phone bill @ £30 a month

You have Netflix at £8 a month

Your commute to work costs you £50 a week in fuel.

You treat yourself and your Mrs to dinner out once a fortnight at £50

Movie night at Cinema £25

You maybe buy a couple of albums each month - £15

Its not easy, but then why should it be? I've cut down your quote, but you have to make sacrifices, which people don't seem to want to do.

If you really want it you will smoke around in a cheap car. Myself and my partner have been in sub £1000 cars for the last few years, only this year have upped my budget for a newer car, 3k. Other half has a 56 plate car which cost £800.

That instantly does away with £200 a month on a car, saving £2400 per year

Insurance at £100 a month? Thats £1200 a year?! I'm 33 and am paying £250 a year. I'm sure your quote is too high, what is the car? I reckon changing the car to a barge will save you £400 a year. Now £2800 saved a year.

Phone at £30 a month? PAYG, £10 tops. Another £240 saved, £3040 in total.

Netflix, £8, £96 a year. Not needed. £3136 saved.

How far is your commute? Mine is 10 miles each way, I cycle, saves me £25 a week. Appreciate it might be a bit further however. I'll ignore this bit.

Dinner out each fortnight? Thats £100 a month. Get a couple of take-away for £20 instead, saving £60 a month, £720 a year. Total saved £3856.

Cinema once a month? I think we went once last year. Saving £275. Total £4131.

Couple of albums a month, even if you cut this to one it will save you £180. Total £4311.

Basic figures, but you could save another £350 a month, cutting the saving time down to 2 years rather than 3.7 years.

Edited by S10GTA on Thursday 20th October 16:17

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

xjay1337 said:

I had £10,000 deposit.
At the time I earned £28k a year.
The most I could get a mortgage for was for approx £125,000.

Either you were a victim of the credit crunch (poor timing), or there were underlying issues with your credit risk rating.
In the current climate, with the above figures, you could have easily bought something at £160k. Monthly repayment would be less than £700/mth over 25yrs - comfortably affordable with a take-home of over £2300/mth (less than a third!).
If the AVERAGE house price where you live is £220k, a one-bed starter home would be in reach at that sort of level. It might not be your dream home, but it would represent independence if that was your priority.

The quotes for the Mortgage above were from Barclays online mortgage calculator.
My personal quotes were from about 3-4 years ago. My credit risk is fine pal.
£2300 take home is more like £35k...hardly "average" you've bumped up people's assumed income by £10k.

C70R said:

xjay1337 said:

I could, if I didn't spend all the money I have done on my car over the last 3 or 4 years, probably be in a house.
But I would have very little money for anything else, I would be driving a £500 15 year old barge and struggling to get by on the day to day.

That's called compromise. It's what people do when they have a priority - yours was clearly p*ssing money up the wall on 'modding' a VW.
If it was that much of a priority, you wouldn't be doing "pleasure activities" or "pleasure travel". You wouldn't have Netflix or go out to the cinema. Personally I'd be mortified if I had spent so much on 'modding' a car, but could only afford to live as someone's lodger - but that's a matter of personal preference.

Yes, it's inherently more difficult to do it solo. But not for any of the reasons you've listed.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:05

That's my choice though. If I want to 'mod' (as you call it) my VW I shall do that.
You are suggesting that the average income single person does literally nothing every night of the week just to save up for a house? That is not a way to live. Can't go out to the cinema once or twice a month because "you're saving for a house" - Are you hearing yourself?

You'd maybe end up with a house, sure, if you haven't killed yourself by then, but you'd have no friends to invite round.
For me I had a choice either enjoy something I call life but go "home" to a less than standard arrangement, or have my own home but have no social interactions.
I chose the former at the time. As a (fairly) single lad, it made no sense to be cooped away in an expensive apartment flat or 1 bed house spending £1200 a month just because it looked better to people on Pistonheads.

I chose a more social life (relatively speaking) and ended up being lodged with a very nice family and their 2 dogs, in a very nice (and big) house in a very desirable area.
Now that I earn more than enough to live comfortably and have a serious relationship on the go we are moving out (her from her parents and me from my lodging) and into our own rental house while we save for a mortgage.

Why the hell wouldn't a single person lodge/house share to keep their living costs down as much as possible
Because they'd sure as hell get mugged off living at home at 25 by people on here... !

I'm lucky enough to be in a good job with lots of options.
Take most people, who are not on average salary but quite a bit less (for ex my Mrs is on about £16k). How is she supposed to manage by herself?

You literally cannot win sometimes.

[CooperS]

C70R said:

Either you were a victim of the credit crunch (poor timing), or there were underlying issues with your credit risk rating.
In the current climate, with the above figures, you could have easily bought something at £150k

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:08

Tell me where in the Hampshire or Surrey can you buy anything other than a garage for 150k (oh and I included 1 room bedsits in that category..... people are dulled to not recognise the fact people who have bought up great swathes of the cheap housing market (prime first time buyer properties) to rent out to supplement their pensions that the generation who are renting also will never have either.... isn't impacting or influencing what those people are spending their money on as buying a house isn't even a option without huge sacrifice..

I'm fortunate both wife and I are on good money but those with average salaries who don't live up north or don't want to live off beans and yoghurt haven't got a chance

Edited by CooperS on Thursday 20th October 16:34

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

The quotes for the Mortgage above were from Barclays online mortgage calculator.
My personal quotes were from about 3-4 years ago. My credit risk is fine pal.
£2300 take home is more like £35k...hardly "average" you've bumped up people's assumed income by £10k.

Sorry - you're absolutely right, that's my error. Take-home on £28k is about £1850.
Even so, the mortgage figure is barely more than you were already paying in rent. In fact, if you'd gone for a 30-year mortgage, then your repayments would have only been ~£570/mth. Yes, your monthly outgoings would have increased (bills, council tax etc.), but all of that is entirely manageable if it was what you wanted.

xjay1337 said:

That's my choice though ... That is not a way to live.

It absolutely is if your priority isn't to spunk your income on buying and 'modding' a car, while shelling out on rent what you could spend on a mortgage. If you really wanted to buy, based on the figures you've presented, it would be easily doable.

My point is simply that so often the message from young people is "It's impossible to get on the housing ladder". When in fact, the reality is closer to "I don't want to make the lifestyle concessions necessary to get on the housing ladder".
Go back and look at the example of my parents. They were 25 (and two years married) before they even lived on their own, because that was what they wanted more than anything else.

Your priorities are your business, even if I don't agree with them. However, it's a bit pathetic to moan about how tough you've got it if you choose not to take the opportunities offered to you.
It's nowhere close to being impossible if you're willing to work for it.

[C70R]

CooperS said:

Tell me where in the Hampshire or Surrey can you buy anything other than a garage for 150k (oh and I included 1 room bedsits in that category.

I've just looked on Rightmove and found 10+ properties <£160k within 3 miles of Newbury (the example we're discussing). That doesn't even take things like shared ownership and help-to-buy schemes into account.
Not sure why Hampshire and Surrey are coming into the conversation, but if you want a house then you don't always get to choose where you live.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:46

[NickCQ]

C70R said:

but if you want a house then you don't always get to choose where you live.

Exactly this. My place is in an area that most of the people I work with would think is pretty grotty (Zone 2, the horror!), but it was worth it to me to own it.

[Lucas Ayde]

'Traditional' wisdom for buying a house is 3.5 a single salary or 2.5x a couple's salary.

Average Salary = 25k
3.5x 25k = 87.5k

Combined income of a couple = 50k (based on average salary)
2.5x 50k = 125k

How much does even a basic starter home cost now (on average) - 150k?

So you're already stretching it more than would have been considered normal before the house price boom.

And interest rates are currently at all-time lows. A mortgage typically lasts 25-30 years so even if the monthly payment seems somewhat affordable today, what happens as the rates go up in the years to come? Bear in mind that most of the good deals are actually only for 2 years and the charges are front-end loaded meaning that you have hardly reduced any of the principal of the debt over the period of the loan, before you either have to remortgage or go onto an SVR that isn't anything close to the 0.25% base rate (typically a couple of percent above).

If you want to have kids - is that starter house going to be big enough? Can you afford the extra expense they add to your costs and still meet your other expenses?

And that's even assuming job security or regular salary progression, which are rapidly going out the window.

[C70R]

Lucas Ayde said:

'Traditional' wisdom for buying a house is 3.5 a single salary or 2.5x a couple's salary.

Traditional wisdom is old news. Plenty of lenders will allow you to borrow 4-5x (or more) on a single salary. Hell, my parents borrowed 3.5-4x in 1976!

In the example above, the chap was taking home £1850/mth, and could have borrowed 5x his salary (£140k against £28kpa) for £570/mth over 30yrs @ 95%.
That's an extreme example of someone buying solo with a small deposit, but I personally don't think that 30% of net income on housing is at a level that would worry me. I can't imagine that renting would be significantly cheaper, as proven in the example.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:56

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

I've just looked on Rightmove and found 10+ properties <£160k within 3 miles of Newbury (the example we're discussing). That doesn't even take things like shared ownership and help-to-buy schemes into account.
Not sure why Hampshire and Surrey are coming into the conversation, but if you want a house then you don't always get to choose where you live.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 16:46

Do you live in Newbury?

Because I have for 25 years.

The areas with houses at that sort of price are abysmal. If you want to live in Benefits central, wife beaters and daytime drinking then be my guest. Majority of properties which aren't in bad areas will need quite a lot of doing up.

It's very important to consider your local area. I could buy a very house in the Midlands for £120k. But it'd be miles away from friends. Miles away from family. Miles away from work.
You are not applying much in the way of real world logic.

Can't afford to buy where you live? Move (completely ignoring the impracticalities of such)
Can't afford a house? Do absolutely nothing (don't go out with friends ever) until you have bought a house.

Cloud cuckoo land.

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 20th October 17:20

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

Some stuff, completely ignoring most points.

C70R said:

It absolutely is if your priority isn't to spunk your income on buying and 'modding' a car, while shelling out on rent what you could spend on a mortgage. If you really wanted to buy, based on the figures you've presented, it would be easily doable.

My point is simply that so often the message from young people is "It's impossible to get on the housing ladder". When in fact, the reality is closer to "I don't want to make the lifestyle concessions necessary to get on the housing ladder".
Go back and look at the example of my parents. They were 25 (and two years married) before they even lived on their own, because that was what they wanted more than anything else.

Your priorities are your business, even if I don't agree with them. However, it's a bit pathetic to moan about how tough you've got it if you choose not to take the opportunities offered to you.
It's nowhere close to being impossible if you're willing to work for it.

Honestly, I don't know how such a delicate flower could survive somewhere like this...
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

Edited by C70R on Thursday 20th October 17:46

[Sparkzz]

24, Drive an S class. Not sure what people mean by 'perceived luxury'
Had a tuned 330d before this, about 350bhp.

For me, I just can't see the reason why anyone would want most hot hatches. I see these cars as shopping trolleys which are mildly quick. There probably are people my age who got and PCP buy an Audi, Merc or BMW based purely on image but I'm certainly not one of them. My old (2008) S Class isn't particularly popular with the 'showy' types of idiots my age, one of the best bits IMO.

I can't understand why people would want a hot hatch really, new ones cost a fortune, old ones are slow. Most diesel rep cars are pretty quick, look good and have nice interiors. Personally, I couldn't contemplate driving a new civic or similar. I'd much rather go for an old one, a new one just says you willingly spend a good amount of money on something hideously styled with an uncomfortable interior. At least if you drive a £500 its costing you nothing.

Much of this will be driven by impressing your peers and the ladies, I think it's desirable now for a lass to have a boyfriend that has a nice motor. I don't think many are really impressed by hatches, they look like what their dads drive but make a lot of noise. Mostly st noise too because they're all hyper stressed 1.4 turbo wotsits.

Edited by Sparkzz on Thursday 20th October 18:23

[AshBurrows]

Oh good, it's turned into every other thread on PH. Great stuff.

[S10GTA]

xjay1337 said:

Do you live in Newbury?

Because I have for 25 years.

The areas with houses at that sort of price are abysmal. If you want to live in Benefits central, wife beaters and daytime drinking then be my guest. Majority of properties which aren't in bad areas will need quite a lot of doing up.

It's very important to consider your local area. I could buy a very house in the Midlands for £120k. But it'd be miles away from friends. Miles away from family. Miles away from work.
You are not applying much in the way of real world logic.

Can't afford to buy where you live? Move (completely ignoring the impracticalities of such)
Can't afford a house? Do absolutely nothing (don't go out with friends ever) until you have bought a house.

Cloud cuckoo land.

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 20th October 17:20

You don't need to do nothing to be able to afford a house, but you need to make sacrifices, which you don't seem to understand. See previous page, I've almost halved your deposit saving time.

[V8RX7]

rsbmw said:

Once you're over about 25 and in a professional type of job, you look a bit of a tool showing up in your chav'd up type-R!

Perhaps but when I was 30 and turning up to meetings in my Griffith 500 I found lots of older / important guys introducing themselves, it was a great icebreaker / talking point.