RE: Revised Toyota GT86 on the way
Discussion
Gary C said:
nickfrog said:
The lack of straight line performance has nothing to do with racing anyone, including diesels, particularly on the road.
A bit of power helps a chassis shine, particularly a good one. Even more crucial on track where you do want to get to the challenging corners with a bit of momentum, which quite frankly, the GT86 is not very good at and frustrates.
Not everyone is happy with mods as they value the 5-year warranty. The way the engine is mapped is an embarrassment and should not need modifying. The engine is indeed terrible in my experience. And we're talking cross purposes here anyway, the engine doesn't have 200hp, probably 170hp, and it feels like 150hp. No exaggeration.
200ps would have been plenty indeed.
Nope, don't buy that at all.A bit of power helps a chassis shine, particularly a good one. Even more crucial on track where you do want to get to the challenging corners with a bit of momentum, which quite frankly, the GT86 is not very good at and frustrates.
Not everyone is happy with mods as they value the 5-year warranty. The way the engine is mapped is an embarrassment and should not need modifying. The engine is indeed terrible in my experience. And we're talking cross purposes here anyway, the engine doesn't have 200hp, probably 170hp, and it feels like 150hp. No exaggeration.
200ps would have been plenty indeed.
It's my opinion based on owning the car for 6 months and a few track days - ultimately it doesn't work for me as a package because of the engine. I thought I could live with it despite the engine, but I can't. And I don't really care about power. How a manufacturer can get it so right and get it so wrong at the same time is beyond me.
nickfrog said:
Gary C said:
nickfrog said:
The lack of straight line performance has nothing to do with racing anyone, including diesels, particularly on the road.
A bit of power helps a chassis shine, particularly a good one. Even more crucial on track where you do want to get to the challenging corners with a bit of momentum, which quite frankly, the GT86 is not very good at and frustrates.
Not everyone is happy with mods as they value the 5-year warranty. The way the engine is mapped is an embarrassment and should not need modifying. The engine is indeed terrible in my experience. And we're talking cross purposes here anyway, the engine doesn't have 200hp, probably 170hp, and it feels like 150hp. No exaggeration.
200ps would have been plenty indeed.
Nope, don't buy that at all.A bit of power helps a chassis shine, particularly a good one. Even more crucial on track where you do want to get to the challenging corners with a bit of momentum, which quite frankly, the GT86 is not very good at and frustrates.
Not everyone is happy with mods as they value the 5-year warranty. The way the engine is mapped is an embarrassment and should not need modifying. The engine is indeed terrible in my experience. And we're talking cross purposes here anyway, the engine doesn't have 200hp, probably 170hp, and it feels like 150hp. No exaggeration.
200ps would have been plenty indeed.
It's my opinion based on owning the car for 6 months and a few track days - ultimately it doesn't work for me as a package because of the engine. I thought I could live with it despite the engine, but I can't. And I don't really care about power. How a manufacturer can get it so right and get it so wrong at the same time is beyond me.
I don't agree that 197hp is so underpowered to not have enough momentum to make the corners interesting. I can make corners interesting in my 1.0 60ps polo, but that engine despite being slow, is quite fun in its own way.
What is interesting about the gt86, is it seems to be a desirable 2nd hand car. Prices seem to be holding up quite well (annoyingly)
There's nothing particularly wrong with the mapping on a GT86. There are fundamental issues with the inlet and exhaust manifolds which can be resolved by changing them and recalibrating to suit (a little tweaking of the DI angle and cam phasing).
Bear in mind manufacturers know exactly what they're doing and engineers are marketing team led. The torque dip is no accident. It's most likely there to make it feel faster on the way out of the dip. Having a relatively low power atmo engine with a flat torque curve is not exciting. Remember the Focus ST170?
I had one of the first in the country, supercharged it, Ohlins, AP's etc and it was an extremely capable car. Personally I'd like one with 400hp or so, not much would be keeping up with that on a b road. Cosworth are developing their engine packages for that kind of power at the moment. Yes please.
Bear in mind manufacturers know exactly what they're doing and engineers are marketing team led. The torque dip is no accident. It's most likely there to make it feel faster on the way out of the dip. Having a relatively low power atmo engine with a flat torque curve is not exciting. Remember the Focus ST170?
I had one of the first in the country, supercharged it, Ohlins, AP's etc and it was an extremely capable car. Personally I'd like one with 400hp or so, not much would be keeping up with that on a b road. Cosworth are developing their engine packages for that kind of power at the moment. Yes please.
It does give the car a sort of split personality - pootling her vs thrashing her. I don't mind it, though I suppose it's a disappointment if you just expect her to just pull from near zero revs like a diesel.
Re: new model. No compelling changes, for me, though I'll undoubtedly go sit in one.
Does anyone know if you will be able to retract the mirrors without starting the engine? It would be my "one thing". I doubt the race engineers noticed...
Re: new model. No compelling changes, for me, though I'll undoubtedly go sit in one.
Does anyone know if you will be able to retract the mirrors without starting the engine? It would be my "one thing". I doubt the race engineers noticed...
Warning: owner bias opinion coming up.
Anyone who doesn't "get" the GT86 is just missing out. They do tend to be the owners of diesel BMWs who's life goal is torque and MPG figures. That's fine, horses for courses.
The thing I love about mine is even on the daily commute it puts a massive smile on my face. You have to work it for its true brilliance to shine, that's part of the appeal. But even if you're tired and fed up on a Monday... Just a few good corners can perk you up. It's also cheap to insure, cheap to run and has a good warrenty. Dealers in my experience have been pretty crap and it's a bit cheap and rattly, but if you want comfort you're looking at the wrong car.
I've never felt like it doesn't have enough power. Not once, I can honestly say that. I've had bigger and faster things and I love powerful cars, but for me Fun > Outright Pub Talk figures. Although, on that subject... Most people can get it to 60 a fair bit faster than the official figures claim. Much like the 172/182 clios.
Anyone who doesn't "get" the GT86 is just missing out. They do tend to be the owners of diesel BMWs who's life goal is torque and MPG figures. That's fine, horses for courses.
The thing I love about mine is even on the daily commute it puts a massive smile on my face. You have to work it for its true brilliance to shine, that's part of the appeal. But even if you're tired and fed up on a Monday... Just a few good corners can perk you up. It's also cheap to insure, cheap to run and has a good warrenty. Dealers in my experience have been pretty crap and it's a bit cheap and rattly, but if you want comfort you're looking at the wrong car.
I've never felt like it doesn't have enough power. Not once, I can honestly say that. I've had bigger and faster things and I love powerful cars, but for me Fun > Outright Pub Talk figures. Although, on that subject... Most people can get it to 60 a fair bit faster than the official figures claim. Much like the 172/182 clios.
Hi everyone, thank you to all those who liked my car (still shocked to see it used as an example!
The 86 by Andy Liu, on Flickr
I went out shopping... by Andy Liu, on Flickr
I'm more of a handling type of guy, rather than brute power, maybe I'm more of a geek and want to mentally push myself working the car up to performance, but I find the GT86 handles amazingly, and if you're less keen on the tail-happy aspect of the performance then switching wheels and tyres still gives you more grip and the nature of the car gives me so much feedback it talks to you and makes you aware when you are near the limit of traction, for you to break traction should you want to have a laugh sideways.
Power for me can be something anyone can work on any time, but to really put a smile on your face when driving I always sort out the handling first, learn more about the car before I add more oomph to it. However in saying that, I find 200bhp enough for this car to do everything I want. The factory mapping and engine setup means that you get a little more power once the revs feed past 2.5k RPM, but then it drops to what we call the dreaded 'torque dip' between 3k-4.4k RPM, but then what feels like VTEC from 4.5k RPM onwards, and this gives us 3k of a power range - and as long as I keep within this power band I'm actually ok in terms of speed and keeping up with people.
I justify my approach to working on handling before power in my cars, with an example of the Saturday just gone at Bedford Autodrome; I was in a Honda CR-Z with only suspension and handling setup, and R888s we were hunting down Integra DC5's, though as expected they do pull a small gap away from me on the straights, in the turns the CR-Z destroyed the DC5! Not bad for a 1.5 hybrid, which is now basically on par with McLaren Honda...
The seats are usable... just. I'm a short-ar$e but even so, it is questionable to have someone sit behind me - the passenger side has notably more legroom so having one sitting behind them there is actually ok. When I was driving the R35 GTR I found the rear seats really were pointless (unless you needed to hold something in there like a baguette or something.
I can understand why people dislike the performance aspects of the car, but for what Toyota/Subaru have done, it's good for me. As for the 0-60 times on paper, they were being very lazy with the times - it can definitely go quicker.
The 86 by Andy Liu, on FlickrI went out shopping... by Andy Liu, on FlickrI'm more of a handling type of guy, rather than brute power, maybe I'm more of a geek and want to mentally push myself working the car up to performance, but I find the GT86 handles amazingly, and if you're less keen on the tail-happy aspect of the performance then switching wheels and tyres still gives you more grip and the nature of the car gives me so much feedback it talks to you and makes you aware when you are near the limit of traction, for you to break traction should you want to have a laugh sideways.
Power for me can be something anyone can work on any time, but to really put a smile on your face when driving I always sort out the handling first, learn more about the car before I add more oomph to it. However in saying that, I find 200bhp enough for this car to do everything I want. The factory mapping and engine setup means that you get a little more power once the revs feed past 2.5k RPM, but then it drops to what we call the dreaded 'torque dip' between 3k-4.4k RPM, but then what feels like VTEC from 4.5k RPM onwards, and this gives us 3k of a power range - and as long as I keep within this power band I'm actually ok in terms of speed and keeping up with people.
I justify my approach to working on handling before power in my cars, with an example of the Saturday just gone at Bedford Autodrome; I was in a Honda CR-Z with only suspension and handling setup, and R888s we were hunting down Integra DC5's, though as expected they do pull a small gap away from me on the straights, in the turns the CR-Z destroyed the DC5! Not bad for a 1.5 hybrid, which is now basically on par with McLaren Honda...
The seats are usable... just. I'm a short-ar$e but even so, it is questionable to have someone sit behind me - the passenger side has notably more legroom so having one sitting behind them there is actually ok. When I was driving the R35 GTR I found the rear seats really were pointless (unless you needed to hold something in there like a baguette or something.
I can understand why people dislike the performance aspects of the car, but for what Toyota/Subaru have done, it's good for me. As for the 0-60 times on paper, they were being very lazy with the times - it can definitely go quicker.
Stamford78 said:
How does this car manage to get through the emission regs? I though the days of N/A high revving engines are gone.
The car has 2 cats in the car; one in the manifold and one just before the centre section/b-pipe. I've removed mine because it makes the car sound a fraction better and gives me a touch more throttle response.Edited by Kesler on Monday 11th July 10:12
Guvernator said:
CABC said:
Guvernator said:
I thought the whole point of this car was that you can tune it to your tastes. The manufacturers are missing out IMO, they really should be offering warranty backed tuning packages by now.
KarlMac said:
What I never understood was why 192/230 bhp and no torque was ok in the RX8 but not in the GT86?
As said countless times by now. There's people who don't get this kind of car and people who've driven it.The main gest by those who've driven it say that it's not that it doesn't have the power, it's just that it's completely characterless.
The RX8 is many things, but characterless it is not.
LankyLegoHead said:
Anyone who doesn't "get" the GT86 is just missing out. They do tend to be the owners of diesel BMWs who's life goal is torque and MPG figures. That's fine, horses for courses.
grumbledoak said:
I suppose it's a disappointment if you just expect her to just pull from near zero revs like a diesel.
Guys can we stop the extreme binary thinking and straw man arguments already ? 1,000s of shades of grey between a diesel and a high revving NA engine. For me the GT86's engine is poor by high revving NA engine standards. I would (provocatively) say that even the Megane RS's engine is a better engine in the right throttle map (there is a choice of 5), however high a COG it gives my current shopping trolley.
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 11th July 23:47
For people who don't like the car, they probably won't have their mind changed anyway. Not that it matters.
Exhaust or intake modifications help the engines audible character. It's a great sounding engine with the right parts.
From mild to wild volume, and mild boxer burble, to mad boxer rumble, so many choices. There are so many youtube videos to pick from.
Exhaust or intake modifications help the engines audible character. It's a great sounding engine with the right parts.
From mild to wild volume, and mild boxer burble, to mad boxer rumble, so many choices. There are so many youtube videos to pick from.
nickfrog said:
LankyLegoHead said:
Anyone who doesn't "get" the GT86 is just missing out. They do tend to be the owners of diesel BMWs who's life goal is torque and MPG figures. That's fine, horses for courses.
grumbledoak said:
I suppose it's a disappointment if you just expect her to just pull from near zero revs like a diesel.
Guys can we stop the extreme binary thinking and straw man arguments already ? 1,000s of shades of grey between a diesel and a high revving NA engine. For me the GT86's engine is poor by high revving NA engine standards. I would (provocatively) say that even the Megane RS's engine is a better engine in the right throttle map (there is a choice of 5), however high a COG it gives my current shopping trolley.
You either LOVE the GT86, or all you want in life is a white German diesel. On lease.
mikey P 500 said:
Yes I have seen a few low miles (sub 30k and 3 yr old normally go for about £11.5k to £13k even trade) often bought by Toyota network too who then retail them,not many high mileage ones about, and never seen one trade. I think due to limited numbers they will keep there price fairly well. (Car wow can do new ones for about £19k though) so they don't really loose much for a new car over the first few years.
Despite clashing with people here and being part of the "needs more POWER!" group, I think I'd go for one if I could get one new for £19k, wouldn't care about the colour/spec either 
ZesPak said:
KarlMac said:
What I never understood was why 192/230 bhp and no torque was ok in the RX8 but not in the GT86?
As said countless times by now. There's people who don't get this kind of car and people who've driven it.The main gest by those who've driven it say that it's not that it doesn't have the power, it's just that it's completely characterless.
The RX8 is many things, but characterless it is not.
Which is the main point, the gt86 needed more power or less weight. At the very least they should have produced a performance alternative. This wasn't and never has been on their agenda.
A big mistake.
Johnnytheboy said:
nickfrog said:
LankyLegoHead said:
Anyone who doesn't "get" the GT86 is just missing out. They do tend to be the owners of diesel BMWs who's life goal is torque and MPG figures. That's fine, horses for courses.
grumbledoak said:
I suppose it's a disappointment if you just expect her to just pull from near zero revs like a diesel.
Guys can we stop the extreme binary thinking and straw man arguments already ? 1,000s of shades of grey between a diesel and a high revving NA engine. For me the GT86's engine is poor by high revving NA engine standards. I would (provocatively) say that even the Megane RS's engine is a better engine in the right throttle map (there is a choice of 5), however high a COG it gives my current shopping trolley.
You either LOVE the GT86, or all you want in life is a white German diesel. On lease.
deltashad said:
I test drove one at launch, yes, it was a nice car, but ended up with an Elise which is a much better drivers car, more economical and faster. And no, the elise is not fast.
they're not competitors but complementary. Elise is a totally focused sports. The 86 has Elise-like characteristics but in a more practical daily package/touring package. It's not even a very comfy tourer, but if you like handling it's a compromise you can consider. For that type of person the exceedingly competent RS6 (as an example) wouldn't be a choice as it would compromise on their priorities. There are many people who have both an Elise and an 86.
I'm a petrolhead, always have been, always will be.
I love power, I love speed and the sensation of acceleration.
I love cars that are beautifully balanced and have the power and acceleration to match; even in excess of.
I'm from the school of thought that says you can never have too much power.
BUT...
I think we're losing, nay, have lost sight of what 200bhp, in a relatively lightweight and dynamically capable package actually represents on the public road.
Drive a GT86 to close to it's limits, both in acceleration and in cornering effort, and you'll find yourself firmly and deeply in territory marked "dangerous driving" - you'll be covering ground far quicker than you can reasonably justify on the public road.
Honestly, we really do need to take a step back and put stuff like this into perspective.
I love power, I love speed and the sensation of acceleration.
I love cars that are beautifully balanced and have the power and acceleration to match; even in excess of.
I'm from the school of thought that says you can never have too much power.
BUT...
I think we're losing, nay, have lost sight of what 200bhp, in a relatively lightweight and dynamically capable package actually represents on the public road.
Drive a GT86 to close to it's limits, both in acceleration and in cornering effort, and you'll find yourself firmly and deeply in territory marked "dangerous driving" - you'll be covering ground far quicker than you can reasonably justify on the public road.
Honestly, we really do need to take a step back and put stuff like this into perspective.
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