RE: Revised Toyota GT86 on the way
Discussion
otolith is right, though - they are tarted up hatchbacks. What is the 135i other than a 116i with a 3 litre turbo dropped in?
What hot hatches are available for around (or under) the £23k price of a GT86/BRZ? Fiesta, Clio, Corsa, ST Focus, 208 GTI? Any that are 4WD, or dramatically faster than the GT86?
What hot hatches are available for around (or under) the £23k price of a GT86/BRZ? Fiesta, Clio, Corsa, ST Focus, 208 GTI? Any that are 4WD, or dramatically faster than the GT86?
braddo said:
otolith is right, though - they are tarted up hatchbacks. What is the 135i other than a 116i with a 3 litre turbo dropped in?
It does indeed look very much like one. But the M135i has different kinematics with more neg camber, 4-pot Brembos, Supersports, most of the engine is behind the front axle giving it a decent PMOI, it still has perfect weight distribution and RWD.Ok it's no sports car (whatever that means this week) as it was never meant to be - if you found that it drives like a tarted up hatchback than fair enough. Personally I found it great fun at Spa and sub-3 minutes out of the box was decent too for a road car that shouldn't have been in its element.
Add M4 LCAs, Endless pads and a diff and you're away for £28k new.
nickfrog said:
It does indeed look very much like one. But the M135i has different kinematics with more neg camber, 4-pot Brembos, Supersports, most of the engine is behind the front axle giving it a decent PMOI, it still has perfect weight distribution and RWD.
Ok it's no sports car (whatever that means this week) as it was never meant to be - if you found that it drives like a tarted up hatchback than fair enough. Personally I found it great fun at Spa and sub-3 minutes out of the box was decent too for a road car that shouldn't have been in its element.
Add M4 LCAs, Endless pads and a diff and you're away for £28k new.
Exactly.....Ok it's no sports car (whatever that means this week) as it was never meant to be - if you found that it drives like a tarted up hatchback than fair enough. Personally I found it great fun at Spa and sub-3 minutes out of the box was decent too for a road car that shouldn't have been in its element.
Add M4 LCAs, Endless pads and a diff and you're away for £28k new.
I don't know anything about Spa and the times to get round it, but I am sure the GT86 will be a LONG way behind. But of course, you can't have fun in a "tarted up hatch back" so the GT86 wins again
braddo said:
What hot hatches are available for around (or under) the £23k price of a GT86/BRZ? Fiesta, Clio, Corsa, ST Focus, 208 GTI? Any that are 4WD, or dramatically faster than the GT86?
Focus ST-3 with about £3k chucked at it (I paid £20k for an ST3 brand new). The GT86 I had was also the courtesy car I was given when someone reversed into the FST, so I did compare them almost back to back. Having driven all of the latest hatches, including the FRS, I suppose I am one of the very few here able to compare 
Tuvra said:
Where does the RWD BMW 135i that was available for around £27k sit into your ridiculously biased argument?
The 1-series is something of a peculiarity. Longitudinal engine and rear drive doesn't really make much sense for a Golf sized family car, though it's nice for the drivers. The vast majority of hot hatches are transverse engine, front drive. The point remains that a dedicated sports car or coupe is always going to look like worse value for money in terms of performance than a mass market family car with some extra power. That's always been the point of a hot hatch. You have to make some compromises, because the primary design objectives are around practicality and low high volume manufacturing costs. That usually means front drive, nose heavy weight distribution, high centre of gravity. It's not snobbery, it's just about what the thing is designed to do. If you want something more specialised, you're going to have to pay for it, and it usually won't be the cheapest way of getting a given level of performance.
otolith said:
That usually means front drive, nose heavy weight distribution, high centre of gravity.
You're quite right - and then you drive a Megane RS and realise that the obvious compromises are not always so obvious behind the wheel, but that's another peculiarity.As hatches' chassis have become so much better over the past few years in terms of torsional rigidity and sophistication of their suspension kinematics, the line between pure sports cars and hatch based performance cars is getting quite blurred. COG height should however make all the difference, but in reality I am not sure it does anymore...
I think if Toyota gave prospective purchasers this car for a weekend a lot of people would be singing a different tune.
Turbos reflect our modern era's fascination with "instant". Either something impresses straight away or it's crap (could probably apply this to how flippantly people leave relationships/jobs etc as well).
I meandered my way through most of the BMW petrol range, from the 318 all the way up to the 335.
Which was the best of the lot? The 325.
The 330/335 were too quick to really enjoy on a spirited drive, while the 325 was the sweet spot.
Turbos reflect our modern era's fascination with "instant". Either something impresses straight away or it's crap (could probably apply this to how flippantly people leave relationships/jobs etc as well).
I meandered my way through most of the BMW petrol range, from the 318 all the way up to the 335.
Which was the best of the lot? The 325.
The 330/335 were too quick to really enjoy on a spirited drive, while the 325 was the sweet spot.
nickfrog said:
otolith said:
That usually means front drive, nose heavy weight distribution, high centre of gravity.
You're quite right - and then you drive a Megane RS and realise that the obvious compromises are not always so obvious behind the wheel, but that's another peculiarity.As hatches' chassis have become so much better over the past few years in terms of torsional rigidity and sophistication of their suspension kinematics, the line between pure sports cars and hatch based performance cars is getting quite blurred. COG height should however make all the difference, but in reality I am not sure it does anymore...
CoG is one of the 86's great assets. Anyone who drives one and doesn't at least appreciate that doesn't have an opinion worth listening to, in that they clearly are unable to appreciate the feel of a car.
The line is very much more blurred i agree, although get into a current VXR you might not think so. One of the reasons simple warm hatches of old were great is because they were light. Fun, because you could chuck it and feel everything.
CABC said:
CoG is one of the 86's great assets. Anyone who drives one and doesn't at least appreciate that doesn't have an opinion worth listening to, in that they clearly are unable to appreciate the feel of a car.
Spot on - and it's all thanks to how low the engine inherently is and how low they've put it in the engine bay and despite it not being anywhere near behind the front axle - which makes me feel even more frustrated about how crap I find the engine to use - I have even wished it was higher but better at times ! It seems that they have compromised the way engine actually works for the sake of extreme COG height, almost as a marketing trick about the "no compromise" approach. A Cayster does pretty well with a higher COG.daveco said:
Turbos reflect our modern era's fascination with "instant". Either something impresses straight away or it's crap (could probably apply this to how flippantly people leave relationships/jobs etc as well).
I hear you and I agree but ironically, your post kind of also reflects the era's fascination for binary thinking. There are many shades of grey between some on/off turbo power delivery and a more subtle and easily modulated turbo power delivery. I am about to mention my Megane again !!I find the low COG thing in the GT86 a bit counterintuitive. The car’s designed to be fun and playful, yet a low COG helps improve cornering ability with a compromise of reduced predictability due to less roll. A bit like how low profile tyres improve steering response but reduce progressive breakaway, making the car feel more capable but less forgiving in return. Part of the MX5’s setup of fun over ability for example is the soft(ish) suspension which allows the driver to feel what the car is doing more and this is often a praised thing. Ultimately the MX5 knows what it’s meant to be and the sales figures prove this.
I can see how a low COG would be very advantageous for those looking for the ultimate corner destroying machine, but the original tyres and suspension setup aren’t conducive to this. So to me the car (as stock) is at odds with itself and I’m sure this frustrates those looking for fun and those looking for performance in equal measures.
Which just leaves me wondering if the car's supposedly main selling point of a low COG is really worth that much in the real world. That is unless you're planning on turning it into a bit of a weapon through some heavy modifications, but then you've a lot of work to do in terms of suspension etc.
I can see how a low COG would be very advantageous for those looking for the ultimate corner destroying machine, but the original tyres and suspension setup aren’t conducive to this. So to me the car (as stock) is at odds with itself and I’m sure this frustrates those looking for fun and those looking for performance in equal measures.
Which just leaves me wondering if the car's supposedly main selling point of a low COG is really worth that much in the real world. That is unless you're planning on turning it into a bit of a weapon through some heavy modifications, but then you've a lot of work to do in terms of suspension etc.
VeeFource said:
I find the low COG thing in the GT86 a bit counterintuitive. The car’s designed to be fun and playful, yet a low COG helps improve cornering ability with a compromise of reduced predictability due to less roll. A bit like how low profile tyres improve steering response but reduce progressive breakaway, making the car feel more capable but less forgiving in return. Part of the MX5’s setup of fun over ability for example is the soft(ish) suspension which allows the driver to feel what the car is doing more and this is often a praised thing. Ultimately the MX5 knows what it’s meant to be and the sales figures prove this.
I can see how a low COG would be very advantageous for those looking for the ultimate corner destroying machine, but the original tyres and suspension setup aren’t conducive to this. So to me the car (as stock) is at odds with itself and I’m sure this frustrates those looking for fun and those looking for performance in equal measures.
Which just leaves me wondering if the car's supposedly main selling point of a low COG is really worth that much in the real world. That is unless you're planning on turning it into a bit of a weapon through some heavy modifications, but then you've a lot of work to do in terms of suspension etc.
Seriously don't understand or agree.I can see how a low COG would be very advantageous for those looking for the ultimate corner destroying machine, but the original tyres and suspension setup aren’t conducive to this. So to me the car (as stock) is at odds with itself and I’m sure this frustrates those looking for fun and those looking for performance in equal measures.
Which just leaves me wondering if the car's supposedly main selling point of a low COG is really worth that much in the real world. That is unless you're planning on turning it into a bit of a weapon through some heavy modifications, but then you've a lot of work to do in terms of suspension etc.
The car is pointy, as you say. it's more delicate in feel because of low cog, the engineers haven't had to mask any unduly high weight, as with most fwd (and indeed Toyo Elise).
But limits come at you earlier and progressively because of the thin eco tyres. As with all road cars it inherently understeers, a little lift and it tucks in. Oversteer is provoked and is either negated or maintained on the throttle. All the time the car is flatter and and feels more directly controllable. Tall, high engines are just bad and to be avoided if possible.
You feel things in an 86 in a more natural way, not because engineers have cleverly put that feel back in. After all the 86 engineering is very basic. It feels more direct than say a Cayman, but the Porsche has supreme engineering behind that is so much more composed on bumpy roads.
Tuvra said:
Focus ST-3 with about £3k chucked at it (I paid £20k for an ST3 brand new). The GT86 I had was also the courtesy car I was given when someone reversed into the FST, so I did compare them almost back to back. Having driven all of the latest hatches, including the FRS, I suppose I am one of the very few here able to compare
As otolith says the 135i is an outlier and not really a hot hatch (6 cylinder, RWD, insanely cheap in the UK compared most other markets). Back to more traditional hot hatches for GT86 money - so the Focus ST is close on price to the GT86. 50 more hp, 200kg heavier, 0.5-1 sec quicker to 60mph. Bland engine and "cheap cabin" (so no better than GT86), torque steer, dulled turbo throttle response, MPV driving position compared to GT86, higher centre of gravity, front biased weight distribution. Wider, stickier tyres than a GT86 to mask the compromises and give higher cornering speed than a stock GT86.
I'm not saying hot hatches can't be fun or fast, but they're a massive compromise. That's why some people are happy to walk past all the hot hatches and into a GT86.
Oh no, actually it's all about snobbery....
braddo said:
Back to more traditional hot hatches for GT86 money - so the Focus ST is close on price to the GT86. 50 more hp, 200kg heavier, 0.5-1 sec quicker to 60mph. Bland engine and "cheap cabin" (so no better than GT86), torque steer, dulled turbo throttle response, MPV driving position compared to GT86, higher centre of gravity, front biased weight distribution. Wider, stickier tyres than a GT86 to mask the compromises and give higher cornering speed than a stock GT86.
I'm not saying hot hatches can't be fun or fast, but they're a massive compromise. That's why some people are happy to walk past all the hot hatches and into a GT86.
Oh no, actually it's all about snobbery....
GT86 Interior equal to that of a Focus ST3? Pull the other one, both the finish and level of standard kit is worlds apart.I'm not saying hot hatches can't be fun or fast, but they're a massive compromise. That's why some people are happy to walk past all the hot hatches and into a GT86.
Oh no, actually it's all about snobbery....
Likewise, a lot of people will walk past the 86 and straight into a Hot Hatch. The odd thing is, by creating a "hot" version, Toyota could attract these potential customers.
Snobbery? What are you talking about? I am defending Ford, Renault, Peugeot and every other manufacturer that produces hot hatches?
braddo said:
As otolith says the 135i is an outlier and not really a hot hatch (6 cylinder, RWD, insanely cheap in the UK compared most other markets).
A M135i is not a hot hatch because despite being a hatch it's got a better engine, is cheaper and has better traction than most other hot hatches ?Sorry I am now very confused. It's too good and therefore doesn't qualify ?
My GT86 is coming up to the 3yr mark and I cannot figure out what I can change it for! I prefer to keep the car for another 3 years.
Yes it is pretty basic and NVH levels are not its strongpoint. But the driving characteristics of this car is simply wonderful. It is old school and everything the car does is as per your command. The electric steering is one of the best in the business!
If I do end up changing it, I will definitely miss it, im sure about it.
Yes it is pretty basic and NVH levels are not its strongpoint. But the driving characteristics of this car is simply wonderful. It is old school and everything the car does is as per your command. The electric steering is one of the best in the business!
If I do end up changing it, I will definitely miss it, im sure about it.
nickfrog said:
braddo said:
As otolith says the 135i is an outlier and not really a hot hatch (6 cylinder, RWD, insanely cheap in the UK compared most other markets).
A M135i is not a hot hatch because despite being a hatch it's got a better engine, is cheaper and has better traction than most other hot hatches ?Sorry I am now very confused. It's too good and therefore doesn't qualify ?
braddo said:
nickfrog said:
braddo said:
As otolith says the 135i is an outlier and not really a hot hatch (6 cylinder, RWD, insanely cheap in the UK compared most other markets).
A M135i is not a hot hatch because despite being a hatch it's got a better engine, is cheaper and has better traction than most other hot hatches ?Sorry I am now very confused. It's too good and therefore doesn't qualify ?
The game has moved on - hot hatches simply are not what they used to be 30 years ago. Irrespective of drivetrain and engine. It's the other bits that have evolved since then, like I explained earlier.
Tuvra said:
GT86 Interior equal to that of a Focus ST3? Pull the other one, both the finish and level of standard kit is worlds apart.
Likewise, a lot of people will walk past the 86 and straight into a Hot Hatch. The odd thing is, by creating a "hot" version, Toyota could attract these potential customers.
Snobbery? What are you talking about? I am defending Ford, Renault, Peugeot and every other manufacturer that produces hot hatches?
Snob comment wasn't at you specifically - other posters further up. Likewise, a lot of people will walk past the 86 and straight into a Hot Hatch. The odd thing is, by creating a "hot" version, Toyota could attract these potential customers.
Snobbery? What are you talking about? I am defending Ford, Renault, Peugeot and every other manufacturer that produces hot hatches?
"Cheap cabin" per car magazine reviews. Superficial in any case, I couldn't give a s
t which one is better.It's not an odd thing that a hot version hasn't been produced - it wasn't the point of the car. It was designed to be for driving fun (at an attainable price) rather than chasing the numbers. at the same time, it has been well engineered so that you can modify them into properly quick weapons without big sacrifices in reliabilty and handling etc.
The GT86 concept is a tricky balancing act of compromises, so certain people will always disagree with the particular balance Toyota/Subaru decided on. Adding something almost always means taking something else away (e.g. more power = higher emissions and road tax; better quality interior means more weight; both mean more cost). But whatever one's preferences, petrolheads ought to see that the manufacturers deserve a lot of praise for having the balls to make it.
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