Communicating with self-driving car
Discussion
I went to a presentation a coupe of weeks back by someone developing self-driving cars at the University of Brighton. I mainly remember how negative she seemed to be about them for someone whose job was seemingly reliant on the technology moving forwards. Two issues she pointed out that i hadn't considered previously were:
1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
Dave Hedgehog said:
play chicken with them, the computer will always (if it works properly) driver defensively and give way to you
it will be so easy to cut in on a self driving car
Imagine what will happen when pedestrians choose to cross the road or a car or bicycle decides to cut in from a junction. The self drive car always stops. So urban centres will be at standstill due to pedestrian anarchy unless pedestrians are segregated from traffic. it will be so easy to cut in on a self driving car
Cue new laws
Truly a parent will be able to say to an annoying kid "go and play with the traffic"
Pulling out from a side road in busy traffic would be interesting - could you flash to let one out, would they let you out or could you sit there for 20 minutes not moving?
Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
Snubs said:
I went to a presentation a coupe of weeks back by someone developing self-driving cars at the University of Brighton. I mainly remember how negative she seemed to be about them for someone whose job was seemingly reliant on the technology moving forwards. Two issues she pointed out that i hadn't considered previously were:
1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
Weather is definitely an issue, however they have no need to follow the center of a lane unless that's what they are programmed to do. The google car will move over in its lane if it detects a large vehicle (like a lorry) in the next lane. This is purely because people will do this naturally.1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
bigmuzzie said:
Pulling out from a side road in busy traffic would be interesting - could you flash to let one out, would they let you out or could you sit there for 20 minutes not moving?
Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
Google are considering the human aspect in their car. As an example at a 4 way intersection the car will edge forward at first to show the other cars that its about to pull out. That's a visual clue that humans do, and react to instinctively.Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
Emergency decisions would be taken before the situations occur (i.e. programmed). For us its a split second to decide as the issue unfolds. There is no doubt a machine can react faster than a human, the clever bit is getting it recognise what the situation is in the first place.
A bit of insight into what the technology could do this time last year;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiwVMrTLUWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiwVMrTLUWg
e21Mark said:
I still don't see why we want or need self driving cars? I know the likes of Google tell us we need them but they've got a vested interest. Isn't this all just a gimmick?
I don't want them for me, I want them for everyone else. Computers don't loose interest, don't have egos and don't make as many errors as humans.In a world where the majority of people that are not interested in driving delegate it to the computer threads like this would be redundant. There wouldn't be the moron in front overtaking at +0.2mph in L3 and there won't be the moron behind tailgating and flashing his lights while you wait for moron 1 to move over.
Edited by donteatpeople on Wednesday 13th July 13:38
donteatpeople said:
Computers don't loose interest, don't have egos and don't make as many errors as humans.
Are you sure......?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwBmPiOmEGQ
bigmuzzie said:
Pulling out from a side road in busy traffic would be interesting - could you flash to let one out, would they let you out or could you sit there for 20 minutes not moving?
Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
Some good points there, and they are exactly the sort of circumstances that the programmers should seek to address.Car parks - driving round for that last parking space, waiting for a car to leave so you can have it. That could all get very complex / frustrating very quickly.
As already said, changeable weather conditions, fog, ice, snow even direct sunlight could obscure cameras - then there's water splashes from big puddles.
Would all the cars be networked and communicate so they were aware of danger in the area or cold you see 20 cars all pile into the same wall from ice?
When little Johnny runs out from behind a wall and a human may instinctively swerve would a driverless? What if the options were to crash into another car or hit a person, how would it react? The same in every situation or would speed be a factor? How would it cope with unknowns - foreign items in the road for example (A horse, deer, dead cow, cardboard box) .
There is a lot of logic to programme into a car to deal with that a human brain learns to deal with and although may get it a bit wrong can often just get away with it, when it's a binary yes and or situation I'm not sure how good it would be.
However...
Nearly everyone is treating autonomous vehicles as being comparable to their human driven equivalents.
They simply aren't.
They should (will?) be programmed to fail-safe, and err on the side of caution in EVERY and ANY given situation.
They'd never drive so fast that they couldn't stop in the distance that they could detect as being clear... with an extra margin of safety built in. When it comes to such detection, there are myriad options, mainly from military applications;
RADAR
LIDAR
Infra red
Optical
Vehicle to vehicle communication
And so on.
As for the parking, surely they'd form an orderly queue with the occupants locked in so they couldn't just hop out, drop their passengers off and go and park themselves, to be recalled later to pick up their passengers.
Many of the answers lie in studying human behaviours, and offsetting our disruptive and illogical attempts to circumvent existing systems in order to gain a few seconds, secure some "advantage" or just get one up on a fellow road user.
The trouble is, will we be able to tolerate allowing machines to have the final say?
One thing I've not seen mentioned in any debate around the move to autonomous is what happens to classic cars? Would they be resigned to private land/circuits/museums?
On a slightly related tangent, how would they get from the owners' homes to the tracks etc.? Self/drive vehicles ready to hook up to race pods maybe?
Then there's freight to consider. Multi-drop delivery drivers and HGV drivers would all be out of work unless they were required to do some loading/unloading along the way.
On a slightly related tangent, how would they get from the owners' homes to the tracks etc.? Self/drive vehicles ready to hook up to race pods maybe?
Then there's freight to consider. Multi-drop delivery drivers and HGV drivers would all be out of work unless they were required to do some loading/unloading along the way.
So essentially, they'll be slowing down the entire road network by being over cautious and then some. Yielding to a bird that flaps in front of it, for example (in the video posted above). We are not going to get quicker journey times out of this. You will not be sitting in 100mph+ convoys inches from the next guy.
The promises that some people seem sold on (being able to be drunk/asleep/reading a book/netflix) will not happen. In reality, it'll be stupid looking little pods bumbling around at 15mph because there's a cyclist half a mile off, while you sit there stone cold sober watching the road in case you need to take control. All the fatigue and boredom of driving, but without the engagement.
The promises that some people seem sold on (being able to be drunk/asleep/reading a book/netflix) will not happen. In reality, it'll be stupid looking little pods bumbling around at 15mph because there's a cyclist half a mile off, while you sit there stone cold sober watching the road in case you need to take control. All the fatigue and boredom of driving, but without the engagement.
AH33 said:
So essentially, they'll be slowing down the entire road network by being over cautious and then some. Yielding to a bird that flaps in front of it, for example (in the video posted above). We are not going to get quicker journey times out of this. You will not be sitting in 100mph+ convoys inches from the next guy.
The promises that some people seem sold on (being able to be drunk/asleep/reading a book/netflix) will not happen. In reality, it'll be stupid looking little pods bumbling around at 15mph because there's a cyclist half a mile off, while you sit there stone cold sober watching the road in case you need to take control. All the fatigue and boredom of driving, but without the engagement.
On the plus side, as I think I said above, they will probably be much better when two lanes merge in to one, with less pushing in/angry little man in L1 syndrome etc. I've noticed that the same amount of traffic can have greatly varying congestion at merges, depending on the quality of the drivers. The promises that some people seem sold on (being able to be drunk/asleep/reading a book/netflix) will not happen. In reality, it'll be stupid looking little pods bumbling around at 15mph because there's a cyclist half a mile off, while you sit there stone cold sober watching the road in case you need to take control. All the fatigue and boredom of driving, but without the engagement.
For the enthusiastic driver, they will probably be much easier to overtake, as I doubt they will bunch up so much, and if you try and pull back in front of them, they'll open a nice gap for you.
Or just ram you, depending how the development is going
DRFC1879 said:
One thing I've not seen mentioned in any debate around the move to autonomous is what happens to classic cars? Would they be resigned to private land/circuits/museums?
Probably the same thing that happens to classic cars without ABS or seat belts. Nothing, carry on as you were. Snubs said:
I went to a presentation a coupe of weeks back by someone developing self-driving cars at the University of Brighton. I mainly remember how negative she seemed to be about them for someone whose job was seemingly reliant on the technology moving forwards. Two issues she pointed out that i hadn't considered previously were:
1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
Sort of a combination of the two.... country B roads that very often have sections with no road markings, especially around bends, I assume these self drivers would cut them even more than the knuckle draggers I already encounter.1. They follow the centre of the lane. Whilst instinctively seeming like a pretty good idea, what it means in practice is that driving down your average country road, if you came across an open s-bend you would likely cut both corners and follow a straighter path. An autonomous car would follow the S, making people feel both travel sick and frustrated.
2. Not great in the rain due to interference with sensors, but completely useless in the snow as road markings / signs etc can't be seen.
It always seems to me that insurance / liability is going to be the problem. Taking the first issue above as an example, i'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to program a car than can cut a corner safely, but what if something went wrong?
Some people seem to be against the idea simply because they think they should be.
As my vision impaired wife tells me, all she wants is to get in, do her own thing, and then get out on arrival. The bit in the middle is a complete waste of time in traffic congested London.
For those of you with open roads, switch it off.
As my vision impaired wife tells me, all she wants is to get in, do her own thing, and then get out on arrival. The bit in the middle is a complete waste of time in traffic congested London.
For those of you with open roads, switch it off.
e21Mark said:
I still don't see why we want or need self driving cars? I know the likes of Google tell us we need them but they've got a vested interest. Isn't this all just a gimmick?
Because some companies are set to earn a huge ammount of money on both producing the technology as wel as the saved cost due to all the vacations that humans will no longer be employed to do. V8 FOU said:
Just suposing for a moment one of these horrors is in front of you.
How would it cope if you gently came up behind and pushed it to go faster. A lot faster.
Just thinking. Hmmmmm.....
Great point - intentional "crash for cash" scammers. Would the machine always be faultless? Could you actually cause an autonomous car to have an accident that's it's fault?How would it cope if you gently came up behind and pushed it to go faster. A lot faster.
Just thinking. Hmmmmm.....
And on the crime point:
Then there must be many uses for one for criminals.... there's a lot I could put here under "runner / mule".
I'm not saying that it would make things worse, but it would open up opportunities for potential unmanned "manoeuvres".
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