The Best ///M/Barge/General Rant/Look at this/O/T(Vol XVIII)
Discussion
That M5 is very lovely though. I'd love to try one.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1998-Porsche-996-Carrera...
Nice.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1998-Porsche-996-Carrera...
Nice.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I would totally run a nice 996 as my only car,thus neatly solving the current (and ridiculous, given only the Slowlo is in use at present) 3 car situation!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sadly, the saga continues, as per my last email. Now I have to wait to see if he defends the claim. The car is mostly ok now I've given it a proper clean, if likely in need of suspension / brake overhaul. Have not used it at all though. Would be tempted to keep it notwithstanding cat D status but would need a *big* discount from the seller to address this and all the ballache in pursuing the claim as well as costs (I shudder to put a price on my time / stress, even allowing for higher than average levels of fortitude. Can't claim for those anyway on the small claims track...). As it is, it's been wasted the whole summer sitting outside Diesel Towers 
Other than that you'd be welcome to try it!Recent anniversary of umbilical cord severance duly overshadowed by not having a nice car to drive on the day
Working on group email re. thread mini-hoon. Can do 25th Sept if folks are game, should have the AW MOT'd by then, albeit still needing some suspension / brake attention!
Diesel Meister said:
Sadly, the saga continues, as per my last email. Now I have to wait to see if he defends the claim. The car is mostly ok now I've given it a proper clean, if likely in need of suspension / brake overhaul. Have not used it at all though. Would be tempted to keep it notwithstanding cat D status but would need a *big* discount from the seller to address this and all the ballache in pursuing the claim as well as costs (I shudder to put a price on my time / stress, even allowing for higher than average levels of fortitude. Can't claim for those anyway on the small claims track...). As it is, it's been wasted the whole summer sitting outside Diesel Towers Other than that you'd be welcome to try it!
What's the story? Other than that you'd be welcome to try it!olly755 said:
What's the story?
D00d. How long have you got? 
It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
- Have been after a 986 box for a few months to replace the slowlo (single, no kids = no need for a worthy but dull more-door. Plus I'd bought it for the ex and wanted shot)
- Saw tasty looking 986 2.7 for sale at a dealer north of the border. Looking at their stock (anything interesting, usually German, from £10k-£60k+) assumed it was a trade-in without much margin.
- Decided to take a punt (knowing (a) it'd likely go quickly; and (b) my rights to cancel if anything was not in order, due it being a distance sale) and offered asking price, inclusive of car delivered to Cambs / fresh MOT test pass certificate. Paid deposit.
- When I asked for the VRM to HPI it before paying the balance, dealer supplied his HPI report, which seemed all clear. I was unimpressed but decided to see things through and resolved to investigate further.
- Noted some non-matching stickers (pointed out by another PHer - dealer at least had a bout 100 high-res pix on his website - still up!) listing different VIN.
- I queried (likely replacement frunk-lid) with dealer ("any accident damage?"). Dealer surprised but adamant car "not bumped".
- Transferred balance a few days later (to a personal account, no less), car delivered on time but a little dirty and crucially without promised MOT
- Growing scepticism about dealer forestalled by need to trek down to the smoke for a familial engagement. Took the box. Seemed to drive ok if a bit jiggly.
- As my spidey sense began to tingle more insistently, I asked a friendly contact in the trade to HPI it (another PHer
), came back as a Cat D write off in 2002 (at three years old, so likely a bit of a big one even if not structural) - Given my crystallising scepticism / annoyance with dealer, decided to reject the car and seek a refund, knowing that this was unlikely to be welcomed but assuming that being a trader he would understand that I had a statutory right to do so, notwithstanding breach of contract (no MOT) and failure to disclose insurance history (any incompetence / dishonesty aside, the car was not as described).
- I emailed to offer two options (a) sizeable discount in final settlement; (b) full refund with car returned at his expense (as per applicable consumer legislation). No response within requested time frame (a few working days)
- I was ignored / hung up on by him and colleagues each time I called (3-4 times over about a week).
- Finally he emails me to say he's "not inclined" to refund / give a discount, alongside some other suitably inane and yet condescending remarks (reinforcing the impression that I'm dealing with a special kind of idiot determined to tarnish the collective reputation of all motor traders)
- I write a letter before action notifying him of my intention to bring a claim if he fails to observe my statutory right to repudiate the contract. No response in requested time frame (a week).
- Couple of weeks later, I collate all relevant docs that detail the particulars, serve and issue a small claim for purchase price plus costs and statutory interest (by now, with interest, he's looking at a bill of around 120% of the original purchase price, assuming my costs are awarded in full, which is likely).
- Latest is that he's emailed me to claim he didn't own the car and I need to name his employer in the claim (plus some more fatuous and irrelevant posturing / condescension, including implying that he's had claims made against him / his employer before and had them set aside...). He offers me a derisory £1k to settle.
- I respond to make clear that (a) I'm happy to add his alleged employer to my claim, along with cost of making the change (£100); and (b) I do not accept his offer. I make a counter offer, consisting of three simple options (i) a sizeable payment in settlement (to cover costs incurred / lower value of car, which I would keep / sell myself); (ii) an even larger payment (small discount on claimed amount, but he avoids a judgement plus enforcement costs) to settle - he gets the car; or (iii) I continue to pursue the claim, aka "See you in court, buddy."
- He basically tells me to foxtrot oscar. All in open correspondence.
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
Diesel Meister said:
olly755 said:
What's the story?
D00d. How long have you got? It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
- Have been after a 986 box for a few months to replace the slowlo (single, no kids = no need for a worthy but dull more-door. Plus I'd bought it for the ex and wanted shot)
- Saw tasty looking 986 2.7 for sale at a dealer north of the border. Looking at their stock (anything interesting, usually German, from £10k-£60k+) assumed it was a trade-in without much margin.
- Decided to take a punt (knowing (a) it'd likely go quickly; and (b) my rights to cancel if anything was not in order, due it being a distance sale) and offered asking price, inclusive of car delivered to Cambs / fresh MOT test pass certificate. Paid deposit.
- When I asked for the VRM to HPI it before paying the balance, dealer supplied his HPI report, which seemed all clear. I was unimpressed but decided to see things through and resolved to investigate further.
- Noted some non-matching stickers (pointed out by another PHer - dealer at least had a bout 100 high-res pix on his website - still up!) listing different VIN.
- I queried (likely replacement frunk-lid) with dealer ("any accident damage?"). Dealer surprised but adamant car "not bumped".
- Transferred balance a few days later (to a personal account, no less), car delivered on time but a little dirty and crucially without promised MOT
- Growing scepticism about dealer forestalled by need to trek down to the smoke for a familial engagement. Took the box. Seemed to drive ok if a bit jiggly.
- As my spidey sense began to tingle more insistently, I asked a friendly contact in the trade to HPI it (another PHer ), came back as a Cat D write off in 2002 (at three years old, so likely a bit of a big one even if not structural)
- Given my crystallising scepticism / annoyance with dealer, decided to reject the car and seek a refund, knowing that this was unlikely to be welcomed but assuming that being a trader he would understand that I had a statutory right to do so, notwithstanding breach of contract (no MOT) and failure to disclose insurance history (any incompetence / dishonesty aside, the car was not as described).
- I emailed to offer two options (a) sizeable discount in final settlement; (b) full refund with car returned at his expense (as per applicable consumer legislation). No response within requested time frame (a few working days)
- I was ignored / hung up on by him and colleagues each time I called (3-4 times over about a week).
- Finally he emails me to say he's "not inclined" to refund / give a discount, alongside some other suitably inane and yet condescending remarks (reinforcing the impression that I'm dealing with a special kind of idiot determined to tarnish the collective reputation of all motor traders)
- I write a letter before action notifying him of my intention to bring a claim if he fails to observe my statutory right to repudiate the contract. No response in requested time frame (a week).
- Couple of weeks later, I collate all relevant docs that detail the particulars, serve and issue a small claim for purchase price plus costs and statutory interest (by now, with interest, he's looking at a bill of around 120% of the original purchase price, assuming my costs are awarded in full, which is likely).
- Latest is that he's emailed me to claim he didn't own the car and I need to name his employer in the claim (plus some more fatuous and irrelevant posturing / condescension, including implying that he's had claims made against him / his employer before and had them set aside...). He offers me a derisory £1k to settle.
- I respond to make clear that (a) I'm happy to add his alleged employer to my claim, along with cost of making the change (£100); and (b) I do not accept his offer. I make a counter offer, consisting of three simple options (i) a sizeable payment in settlement (to cover costs incurred / lower value of car, which I would keep / sell myself); (ii) an even larger payment (small discount on claimed amount, but he avoids a judgement plus enforcement costs) to settle - he gets the car; or (iii) I continue to pursue the claim, aka "See you in court, buddy."
- He basically tells me to foxtrot oscar. All in open correspondence.
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
It appears the majority of traders are shysters. And the law is an ass. You may thing you have a slam dunker, but small claims is a toss of a coin.
Ferris - yeah, I accept there is no such thing as a sure thing in such cases. It can be frustrating how elusive justice can be, given that by most accounts we have on of the best legal systems in the world. Except when you come to use it that is
Snipped the dull stuff (click if bored):
I won't bore everyone with some of the technicalities I've had to deal with, but suffice it to say that even undertaking paralegal work as part of the day job, this was not as straightforward as the government's website would have you believe. A lot of the published guidance is incomplete and missing critical details, including on service of claims outside of jurisdiction etc.. I've learned plenty though, so not a completely wasted endeavour on that front.
I can only hope for a sensible outcome. Even if I get a judgement in my favour, there is still the need to enforce it. If it all goes teats up, I'll have to decide whether to keep or sell a car that will prove less than ideal for either purpose. Such is life - first world problems etc. but without wishing to sound trite, the principle bothers me. I mean, imagine how often stuff like this happens and people just live with it? dealers like this need to be called out, frankly. Luckily it shouldn't leave me destitute, even if it could end up costing me most of my savings and whole chunk of time / wear and tear on the nerves.
ETA:
Matty - main mistake I made was not getting my own HPI check done before parting with the cash, although I think it was reasonable to expect any insurance history status to be disclosed without having to ask when dealing with a trader. The fact that he offered his own HPI report, combined with my subsequent questions means he's either lying (contractual misrepresentation) or just plain incompetent (i.e. allowing for any variation in the HPI output, you'd make sure it was clean before offering it for sale).
It terms of the time taken, some of this was down to the system, some down my other commitments (like paying taxes!). Everything has to be done in hardcopy so when I submitted my claim to the court and they decided I need to complete some more paperwork, I lost 2 weeks there. Then they sent the claim form back to me to serve on the defendant - I didn't request this (you normally have to ask for this option but apparently the court does not serve / issue outside of jurisdiction, even when the defendant is about 20 minutes outside and the claimant has paid a £455 court fee
). Once served outside jurisdiction, the defendant has 21 days (due to being outside of E&W) to respond ((i) deny all or part of claim; (ii) admit all or part of claim; or (iii) counter-claim). In the absence of response, judgement can be entered in default. I then have to seek enforcement of it to actually get the cash, assuming no application is made to set aside the judgement. I've a couple more weeks to wait to find out whether he's defending it. Bit of 'mare in time-frame / time investment terms, quite apart from the cash investment. Still insuring and taxing a driveway ornament too.
My legal expertise is in R&D contracts, not litigation, but I know plenty of litigators and all those I've spoken to about this case expressed dismay / surprise that the HM government websites and forms were not clear in relation to small claims. I've had to read the Civil Procedure Rules and a couple of quite niche statutes FFS - how is that a lay-person friendly process? I have written to HM Courts & Tribunals Service with my suggestions
My (non-legal) advice would be to spend a bit on getting a solicitor to handle it for you and seeking to claim back the costs if possible, especially if you have a full time job to be doing in the meantime. Better yet, get a solicitor to write a snottogram first and avoid the need to claim if you can!
Snipped the dull stuff (click if bored):
I won't bore everyone with some of the technicalities I've had to deal with, but suffice it to say that even undertaking paralegal work as part of the day job, this was not as straightforward as the government's website would have you believe. A lot of the published guidance is incomplete and missing critical details, including on service of claims outside of jurisdiction etc.. I've learned plenty though, so not a completely wasted endeavour on that front.
I can only hope for a sensible outcome. Even if I get a judgement in my favour, there is still the need to enforce it. If it all goes teats up, I'll have to decide whether to keep or sell a car that will prove less than ideal for either purpose. Such is life - first world problems etc. but without wishing to sound trite, the principle bothers me. I mean, imagine how often stuff like this happens and people just live with it? dealers like this need to be called out, frankly. Luckily it shouldn't leave me destitute, even if it could end up costing me most of my savings and whole chunk of time / wear and tear on the nerves.
ETA:
Matty - main mistake I made was not getting my own HPI check done before parting with the cash, although I think it was reasonable to expect any insurance history status to be disclosed without having to ask when dealing with a trader. The fact that he offered his own HPI report, combined with my subsequent questions means he's either lying (contractual misrepresentation) or just plain incompetent (i.e. allowing for any variation in the HPI output, you'd make sure it was clean before offering it for sale).
It terms of the time taken, some of this was down to the system, some down my other commitments (like paying taxes!). Everything has to be done in hardcopy so when I submitted my claim to the court and they decided I need to complete some more paperwork, I lost 2 weeks there. Then they sent the claim form back to me to serve on the defendant - I didn't request this (you normally have to ask for this option but apparently the court does not serve / issue outside of jurisdiction, even when the defendant is about 20 minutes outside and the claimant has paid a £455 court fee
). Once served outside jurisdiction, the defendant has 21 days (due to being outside of E&W) to respond ((i) deny all or part of claim; (ii) admit all or part of claim; or (iii) counter-claim). In the absence of response, judgement can be entered in default. I then have to seek enforcement of it to actually get the cash, assuming no application is made to set aside the judgement. I've a couple more weeks to wait to find out whether he's defending it. Bit of 'mare in time-frame / time investment terms, quite apart from the cash investment. Still insuring and taxing a driveway ornament too.My legal expertise is in R&D contracts, not litigation, but I know plenty of litigators and all those I've spoken to about this case expressed dismay / surprise that the HM government websites and forms were not clear in relation to small claims. I've had to read the Civil Procedure Rules and a couple of quite niche statutes FFS - how is that a lay-person friendly process? I have written to HM Courts & Tribunals Service with my suggestions
My (non-legal) advice would be to spend a bit on getting a solicitor to handle it for you and seeking to claim back the costs if possible, especially if you have a full time job to be doing in the meantime. Better yet, get a solicitor to write a snottogram first and avoid the need to claim if you can!
Edited by Diesel Meister on Sunday 11th September 17:06
Edited by Diesel Meister on Monday 12th September 13:17
W00DY said:
That M5 is very lovely though. I'd love to try one.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1998-Porsche-996-Carrera...
Nice.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1998-Porsche-996-Carrera...
Nice.
It mocks me.
Diesel Meister said:
D00d. How long have you got?
It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
DM - I'm sorry to hear this. Unfortunately, being the petroleum-infused magpies that we are, many of us regrettably end up taking a wrong turn on occasion; despite our apparently bullet-proof DD.It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
- Have been after a 986 box for a few months to replace the slowlo (single, no kids = no need for a worthy but dull more-door. Plus I'd bought it for the ex and wanted shot)
- Saw tasty looking 986 2.7 for sale at a dealer north of the border. Looking at their stock (anything interesting, usually German, from £10k-£60k+) assumed it was a trade-in without much margin.
- Decided to take a punt (knowing (a) it'd likely go quickly; and (b) my rights to cancel if anything was not in order, due it being a distance sale) and offered asking price, inclusive of car delivered to Cambs / fresh MOT test pass certificate. Paid deposit.
- When I asked for the VRM to HPI it before paying the balance, dealer supplied his HPI report, which seemed all clear. I was unimpressed but decided to see things through and resolved to investigate further.
- Noted some non-matching stickers (pointed out by another PHer - dealer at least had a bout 100 high-res pix on his website - still up!) listing different VIN.
- I queried (likely replacement frunk-lid) with dealer ("any accident damage?"). Dealer surprised but adamant car "not bumped".
- Transferred balance a few days later (to a personal account, no less), car delivered on time but a little dirty and crucially without promised MOT
- Growing scepticism about dealer forestalled by need to trek down to the smoke for a familial engagement. Took the box. Seemed to drive ok if a bit jiggly.
- As my spidey sense began to tingle more insistently, I asked a friendly contact in the trade to HPI it (another PHer ), came back as a Cat D write off in 2002 (at three years old, so likely a bit of a big one even if not structural)
- Given my crystallising scepticism / annoyance with dealer, decided to reject the car and seek a refund, knowing that this was unlikely to be welcomed but assuming that being a trader he would understand that I had a statutory right to do so, notwithstanding breach of contract (no MOT) and failure to disclose insurance history (any incompetence / dishonesty aside, the car was not as described).
- I emailed to offer two options (a) sizeable discount in final settlement; (b) full refund with car returned at his expense (as per applicable consumer legislation). No response within requested time frame (a few working days)
- I was ignored / hung up on by him and colleagues each time I called (3-4 times over about a week).
- Finally he emails me to say he's "not inclined" to refund / give a discount, alongside some other suitably inane and yet condescending remarks (reinforcing the impression that I'm dealing with a special kind of idiot determined to tarnish the collective reputation of all motor traders)
- I write a letter before action notifying him of my intention to bring a claim if he fails to observe my statutory right to repudiate the contract. No response in requested time frame (a week).
- Couple of weeks later, I collate all relevant docs that detail the particulars, serve and issue a small claim for purchase price plus costs and statutory interest (by now, with interest, he's looking at a bill of around 120% of the original purchase price, assuming my costs are awarded in full, which is likely).
- Latest is that he's emailed me to claim he didn't own the car and I need to name his employer in the claim (plus some more fatuous and irrelevant posturing / condescension, including implying that he's had claims made against him / his employer before and had them set aside...). He offers me a derisory £1k to settle.
- I respond to make clear that (a) I'm happy to add his alleged employer to my claim, along with cost of making the change (£100); and (b) I do not accept his offer. I make a counter offer, consisting of three simple options (i) a sizeable payment in settlement (to cover costs incurred / lower value of car, which I would keep / sell myself); (ii) an even larger payment (small discount on claimed amount, but he avoids a judgement plus enforcement costs) to settle - he gets the car; or (iii) I continue to pursue the claim, aka "See you in court, buddy."
- He basically tells me to foxtrot oscar. All in open correspondence.
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
Given that you and I are cut from the same cloth professionally, it would be patronising of me to offer assistance, unless it would genuinely be of any use to you.
I've been down this road before, as you may recall, and so my one take away from your tale is this: keep persevering.
I think your case is pretty cast iron and notwithstanding the vendor's breach in respect to the MOT, it sounds like there's a bit of fraudulent misrepresentation in respect to the HPI, no? Altogether, it's the sort of thing that distance selling under SOGA was made for: car falsely advertised etc. and delivered not in accordance with contract.
Naturally, the vendor will hope that you'll fold just like every other punter, which is why he's playing his cards close. However, if you are persistent, you will hopefully become such a bane to him that he'll eventually give in. After all, the loudest buzzer is always the first to be silenced.
Proceed with the claim through court and keep at it, especially including the parent company (if such exists). Also, don't forget that lodged claim notwithstanding, there's nothing stopping you bombing his mail box with formal recorded letters, just to keep this mind on the case. It's as much a psychological game as anything else and it demonstrates that you're not a man to be played with.
Best of luck to you.
tenfour said:
Diesel Meister said:
D00d. How long have you got?
It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
DM - I'm sorry to hear this. Unfortunately, being the petroleum-infused magpies that we are, many of us regrettably end up taking a wrong turn on occasion; despite our apparently bullet-proof DD.It's a manure-marinated, 100% screen worthy, steaming pile of cliché. Caveat emptor etc.
In the interest of sticking to the understandable (if frustrating at times) PH rules, I'll name no names but it boils down to this:
Naughty dealer will not take back car and return my hard-earned.
Slightly fuller account:
- Have been after a 986 box for a few months to replace the slowlo (single, no kids = no need for a worthy but dull more-door. Plus I'd bought it for the ex and wanted shot)
- Saw tasty looking 986 2.7 for sale at a dealer north of the border. Looking at their stock (anything interesting, usually German, from £10k-£60k+) assumed it was a trade-in without much margin.
- Decided to take a punt (knowing (a) it'd likely go quickly; and (b) my rights to cancel if anything was not in order, due it being a distance sale) and offered asking price, inclusive of car delivered to Cambs / fresh MOT test pass certificate. Paid deposit.
- When I asked for the VRM to HPI it before paying the balance, dealer supplied his HPI report, which seemed all clear. I was unimpressed but decided to see things through and resolved to investigate further.
- Noted some non-matching stickers (pointed out by another PHer - dealer at least had a bout 100 high-res pix on his website - still up!) listing different VIN.
- I queried (likely replacement frunk-lid) with dealer ("any accident damage?"). Dealer surprised but adamant car "not bumped".
- Transferred balance a few days later (to a personal account, no less), car delivered on time but a little dirty and crucially without promised MOT
- Growing scepticism about dealer forestalled by need to trek down to the smoke for a familial engagement. Took the box. Seemed to drive ok if a bit jiggly.
- As my spidey sense began to tingle more insistently, I asked a friendly contact in the trade to HPI it (another PHer ), came back as a Cat D write off in 2002 (at three years old, so likely a bit of a big one even if not structural)
- Given my crystallising scepticism / annoyance with dealer, decided to reject the car and seek a refund, knowing that this was unlikely to be welcomed but assuming that being a trader he would understand that I had a statutory right to do so, notwithstanding breach of contract (no MOT) and failure to disclose insurance history (any incompetence / dishonesty aside, the car was not as described).
- I emailed to offer two options (a) sizeable discount in final settlement; (b) full refund with car returned at his expense (as per applicable consumer legislation). No response within requested time frame (a few working days)
- I was ignored / hung up on by him and colleagues each time I called (3-4 times over about a week).
- Finally he emails me to say he's "not inclined" to refund / give a discount, alongside some other suitably inane and yet condescending remarks (reinforcing the impression that I'm dealing with a special kind of idiot determined to tarnish the collective reputation of all motor traders)
- I write a letter before action notifying him of my intention to bring a claim if he fails to observe my statutory right to repudiate the contract. No response in requested time frame (a week).
- Couple of weeks later, I collate all relevant docs that detail the particulars, serve and issue a small claim for purchase price plus costs and statutory interest (by now, with interest, he's looking at a bill of around 120% of the original purchase price, assuming my costs are awarded in full, which is likely).
- Latest is that he's emailed me to claim he didn't own the car and I need to name his employer in the claim (plus some more fatuous and irrelevant posturing / condescension, including implying that he's had claims made against him / his employer before and had them set aside...). He offers me a derisory £1k to settle.
- I respond to make clear that (a) I'm happy to add his alleged employer to my claim, along with cost of making the change (£100); and (b) I do not accept his offer. I make a counter offer, consisting of three simple options (i) a sizeable payment in settlement (to cover costs incurred / lower value of car, which I would keep / sell myself); (ii) an even larger payment (small discount on claimed amount, but he avoids a judgement plus enforcement costs) to settle - he gets the car; or (iii) I continue to pursue the claim, aka "See you in court, buddy."
- He basically tells me to foxtrot oscar. All in open correspondence.
I'm keeping to the socially acceptable path for now and waiting for him to file a defence / fail to contest the claim, although that's likely to take yet more time (this all kicked off late May). Updates as they come... Life is the longest thing any of us will ever do, but it's far too busy and brief for this kind of nonsense.
/steps off soapbox
Given that you and I are cut from the same cloth professionally, it would be patronising of me to offer assistance, unless it would genuinely be of any use to you.
I've been down this road before, as you may recall, and so my one take away from your tale is this: keep persevering.
I think your case is pretty cast iron and notwithstanding the vendor's breach in respect to the MOT, it sounds like there's a bit of fraudulent misrepresentation in respect to the HPI, no? Altogether, it's the sort of thing that distance selling under SOGA was made for: car falsely advertised etc. and delivered not in accordance with contract.
Naturally, the vendor will hope that you'll fold just like every other punter, which is why he's playing his cards close. However, if you are persistent, you will hopefully become such a bane to him that he'll eventually give in. After all, the loudest buzzer is always the first to be silenced.
Proceed with the claim through court and keep at it, especially including the parent company (if such exists), and best of luck to you.
Look at the value of your claim, half it and deduct your costs, then decide if you want to proceed.
As for paying a solicitor to deal with the case, if someone doesn't give a s
t then they won't be swayed by a letter from a solicitor.DM what a huge PITA !
Anyway hope you get somewhere soon, I've bought several cars blind but mostly main dealers and impulse purchases, even then not without risk of some unwanted surprises. I am not sure HPI are all they are cracked up to be either to be honest, some big mistakes on a car I owned once but a few emails and calls to them and it was resolved. Now did someone mention a mini hoon ?
Anyway hope you get somewhere soon, I've bought several cars blind but mostly main dealers and impulse purchases, even then not without risk of some unwanted surprises. I am not sure HPI are all they are cracked up to be either to be honest, some big mistakes on a car I owned once but a few emails and calls to them and it was resolved. Now did someone mention a mini hoon ?
Chaps - thanks to all for the moral support / encouragement / commiseration, genuinely appreciated. I'll seek to avoid further cluttering of this esteemed thread for now and have tucked in my ramblings using the spoiler tag (an excellent feature to allow folks to filter - should have cottoned on earlier)
/slinks back to classifieds, albeit at a suitably chastened and cynical gait...
Rocket - Re. mini-hoon I'm clearing diary space / planning as I type, albeit on foot en route to next thrilling meeting of the day. Emails to follow!
Olly7 - click if you're bored
I can't actually prove that he adulterated the HPI check but I was suspicious as (i) it came through unbidden when I asked for the VRM to do my own (yes, he might have been trying to save me twenty sovereigns, but he might also have been hiding something); (ii) it was an MS Word Document and thus could have been edited; (iii) it mentioned no insurance history for theft but not in relation to accident damage (been a while for me so no idea if this is normally covered under the same or a different heading). TBH the issue for me is that whether or not he knew, it's not an acceptable state of affairs notwithstanding any potential inconsistency in HPI checks. Even if the car is perfectly good (not had it inspected as opted to reject within 2 days of delivery, albeit it passed a recent MOT necessary to keep it insured / taxed), I didn't and don't want a cat D car - there is plenty of choice! More importantly, as a distance sale I can technically cancel the contract without cause, never mind when there is a clear breach as well as a potential misrepresentation / fraudulent concealment (the latter being harder to prove, naturally).
/slinks back to classifieds, albeit at a suitably chastened and cynical gait...
Rocket - Re. mini-hoon I'm clearing diary space / planning as I type, albeit on foot en route to next thrilling meeting of the day. Emails to follow!
Olly7 - click if you're bored
I can't actually prove that he adulterated the HPI check but I was suspicious as (i) it came through unbidden when I asked for the VRM to do my own (yes, he might have been trying to save me twenty sovereigns, but he might also have been hiding something); (ii) it was an MS Word Document and thus could have been edited; (iii) it mentioned no insurance history for theft but not in relation to accident damage (been a while for me so no idea if this is normally covered under the same or a different heading). TBH the issue for me is that whether or not he knew, it's not an acceptable state of affairs notwithstanding any potential inconsistency in HPI checks. Even if the car is perfectly good (not had it inspected as opted to reject within 2 days of delivery, albeit it passed a recent MOT necessary to keep it insured / taxed), I didn't and don't want a cat D car - there is plenty of choice! More importantly, as a distance sale I can technically cancel the contract without cause, never mind when there is a clear breach as well as a potential misrepresentation / fraudulent concealment (the latter being harder to prove, naturally).
What a ballache. I'm hardly qualified to comment on SOGA, but on paper it looks like you're holding all the cards.
Had a funny and similar situation years ago. A lad wanted to privately p/ex a 306 GTi/6 for a car I was selling. I was game, and the figures were (as they should be) in my favour, so was happy to do the deal based on the HPI checking out. Said chappie provided the plate, HPI checked out, car looked good, and the deal was done.
A week or so later, I stepped back and looked at the car, and something looked wrong. The numberplate. He had provided the VRM P686 ***. The plate on the car was P868 ***, with the last 3 letters identical on both. And both cars were 306GTI's in Metallic Lager. Except my car was discovered as Cat C, and the other was clear...
It got resolved though, I'd never heard of small claims or SOGA at that point.
Had a funny and similar situation years ago. A lad wanted to privately p/ex a 306 GTi/6 for a car I was selling. I was game, and the figures were (as they should be) in my favour, so was happy to do the deal based on the HPI checking out. Said chappie provided the plate, HPI checked out, car looked good, and the deal was done.
A week or so later, I stepped back and looked at the car, and something looked wrong. The numberplate. He had provided the VRM P686 ***. The plate on the car was P868 ***, with the last 3 letters identical on both. And both cars were 306GTI's in Metallic Lager. Except my car was discovered as Cat C, and the other was clear...
It got resolved though, I'd never heard of small claims or SOGA at that point.
DM - sorry to hear of your woes. I hope events turn out ok for you.
Our S-Max (sorry to darken the thread with such a vehicle) was stolen, recovered and stolen again (the fun of living in the eastern side of London), so I think it might be time to try out the Golf R.
On a happier note, I'm just back from 3 days volunteering at Goodwood Revival (I volunteered as a buggy driver, and spent half the weekend ferrying lovely people around, and the other half enjoying the revival). Some of my photos below
spotted this beauty in the car park - they really are very good looking cars.
this little thing looked nicely scruffy and used around the edges - and it then proceeded to sell for £4.6m
more loveliness:
and finally, some proper racing cars:
Our S-Max (sorry to darken the thread with such a vehicle) was stolen, recovered and stolen again (the fun of living in the eastern side of London), so I think it might be time to try out the Golf R.
On a happier note, I'm just back from 3 days volunteering at Goodwood Revival (I volunteered as a buggy driver, and spent half the weekend ferrying lovely people around, and the other half enjoying the revival). Some of my photos below
spotted this beauty in the car park - they really are very good looking cars.
this little thing looked nicely scruffy and used around the edges - and it then proceeded to sell for £4.6m
more loveliness:
and finally, some proper racing cars:
Diesel Meister said:
Sadly, the saga continues, as per my last email. Now I have to wait to see if he defends the claim. The car is mostly ok now I've given it a proper clean, if likely in need of suspension / brake overhaul. Have not used it at all though. Would be tempted to keep it notwithstanding cat D status but would need a *big* discount from the seller to address this and all the ballache in pursuing the claim as well as costs (I shudder to put a price on my time / stress, even allowing for higher than average levels of fortitude. Can't claim for those anyway on the small claims track...). As it is, it's been wasted the whole summer sitting outside Diesel Towers Other than that you'd be welcome to try it!
Recent anniversary of umbilical cord severance duly overshadowed by not having a nice car to drive on the day
Working on group email re. thread mini-hoon. Can do 25th Sept if folks are game, should have the AW MOT'd by then, albeit still needing some suspension / brake attention!
What's happened to the MR2? Is it out of action? Other than that you'd be welcome to try it!Recent anniversary of umbilical cord severance duly overshadowed by not having a nice car to drive on the day
Working on group email re. thread mini-hoon. Can do 25th Sept if folks are game, should have the AW MOT'd by then, albeit still needing some suspension / brake attention!
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