Cat D cars - Worth the risk?

[daemon]

TooMany2cvs said:

...which would still have been repaired, without trace, but for paperwork factors. If the damage was more than the value, it'd be CatC.

TBH, get the bonnet and bumper off that, and I don't think it's going to be half as bad as it looks.
http://www.copart.co.uk/uk/Lot/17218806?searchId=7...

OTOH, £11,500 PAV, £1,700 bid so far, with a day to go - and reserve not met. I think that's going to be fed back into the food chain for breaking.

Buying a car that might have had significant damage that was subsequently repaired to a particular standard by the insurance company, but not recorded is very different to a Cat D car - which is the discussion here - that has been sold off as salvage and not subject to any standards for repair.

That car could well have chassis damage that would need corrected and also is in need of an airbag set. You could be very lucky and the bloke who subsequently purchases it isnt unscrupulous and does do the repairs properly, or he could opt to not get too concerned about alignment, not repair some out of sight structural damage, filler up some panels in stead of replacing them, use engine parts out of a different type of mini that hopefully were compatible but seem to fit ok and maybe disable a few lights that have stayed on on the dash but might cost him money to investigate. He will then of course tell you it "just needed a bumper and a wing" when you ask him.

Its always bemusing how few of these "it just needed a bumper and a wing pal" merchants selling repaired Cat Ds never seem to be able to find any pics of what it looked like before the accident.

I've no particular issue with repaired Cat D or C cars providing (a) i can see comprehensive photos of the car before the repair and a list of parts replaced or (b) its my own preferred bodyman who has done the work, however with a Cat D repaired car being sold on by the guy who has repaired it, you are relying on the integrity on someone you dont know whose vested interest in the car has been to make as much money as possible.

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:09

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:11

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:14

[PapaJohns]

I bought my first cat D last March saved about £4K. Just make sure it's fully documented with pre damage pictures/receipts as the only downside to a cat d is selling it on. The more info you have with the car the better

Mine was subjected to nsf damage (bumper,headlight,wing,wheel)


Edit:- as above really,receipts proving airbags,seat belt pretensioners have been replaced and not just coded out or a fuse/bulb been removed ,

Edited by PapaJohns on Sunday 24th July 11:27

[J4CKO]

How about that xfr up for sale at 16 grand, photos available, would you seen sixteen grand on a cat d, car looks perfect and was repaired at a jag dealer.


So cat d status vs two year older example with twice the mileage ?

[daemon]

J4CKO said:

How about that xfr up for sale at 16 grand, photos available, would you seen sixteen grand on a cat d, car looks perfect and was repaired at a jag dealer.


So cat d status vs two year older example with twice the mileage ?

I assume you're talking about this one?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Yup, would tick the boxes for me - repaired by a reputable dealer, invoices, pre-accident pictures, decent saving.

The only thing to consider there is other than on the asking price right now, what are you saving? Come resale time it will be worth proportionally less and it could be harder to sell. Granted, as it moves towards zero value it wont matter so much, but what about in say 3 years? If a non Cat D one is £12K, this one might be worth £8/9K

[J4CKO]

daemon said:

J4CKO said:

How about that xfr up for sale at 16 grand, photos available, would you seen sixteen grand on a cat d, car looks perfect and was repaired at a jag dealer.


So cat d status vs two year older example with twice the mileage ?

I assume you're talking about this one?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Yup, would tick the boxes for me - repaired by a reputable dealer, invoices, pre-accident pictures, decent saving.

The only thing to consider there is other than on the asking price right now, what are you saving? Come resale time it will be worth proportionally less and it could be harder to sell. Granted, as it moves towards zero value it wont matter so much, but what about in say 3 years? If a non Cat D one is £12K, this one might be worth £8/9K

Yes, that is the car, was on my phone and finding it was proving fiddly, but future value is a consideration, though I think it is perhaps less of a concern as the cars dwindle in value natrually anyway, in the meantime I would have a fantastic car, would go in a bit lower that £16,450 based on how long its been around, damage limitation for when the time comes to move it on.

For me though it is down to budget, and that one has 50 k, some of the others are ell over 100, which isnt a barrier to me buying it, not scared of a few miles, my current CLS has 115 up now, but would always favour a newer, lower mileage example, and the paint where it got ht will be especially good !

15/16 grand for me will be do-able at some point soon, but 20, 25 is stretching it unless something changes like a lottery win.

Wonder if the XFR will follow the depreciation curve of other jags ? or will a 500 bhp car always have some value, because its fast ?

[TooMany2cvs]

daemon said:

TooMany2cvs said:

...which would still have been repaired, without trace, but for paperwork factors. If the damage was more than the value, it'd be CatC.

TBH, get the bonnet and bumper off that, and I don't think it's going to be half as bad as it looks.
http://www.copart.co.uk/uk/Lot/17218806?searchId=7...

OTOH, £11,500 PAV, £1,700 bid so far, with a day to go - and reserve not met. I think that's going to be fed back into the food chain for breaking.

Buying a car that might have had significant damage that was subsequently repaired to a particular standard by the insurance company, but not recorded is very different to a Cat D car - which is the discussion here - that has been sold off as salvage and not subject to any standards for repair.

Equally, how many shonky-insurance-repair threads are there on here?

If it was bought by somebody to repair and run, then it may very well have been repaired a lot better than by a by-the-numbers insurance outfit whose margin has been chopped to the minimum.

That car could well have chassis damage that would need corrected and also is in need of an airbag set. You could be very lucky and the bloke who subsequently purchases it isnt unscrupulous and does do the repairs properly, or he could opt to not get too concerned about alignment, not repair some out of sight structural damage, filler up some panels in stead of replacing them, use engine parts out of a different type of mini that hopefully were compatible but seem to fit ok and maybe disable a few lights that have stayed on on the dash but might cost him money to investigate. He will then of course tell you it "just needed a bumper and a wing" when you ask him.

Its always bemusing how few of these "it just needed a bumper and a wing pal" merchants selling repaired Cat Ds never seem to be able to find any pics of what it looked like before the accident.

I've no particular issue with repaired Cat D or C cars providing (a) i can see comprehensive photos of the car before the repair and a list of parts replaced or (b) its my own preferred bodyman who has done the work, however with a Cat D repaired car being sold on by the guy who has repaired it, you are relying on the integrity on someone you dont know whose vested interest in the car has been to make as much money as possible.

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:09

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:11

Edited by daemon on Sunday 24th July 11:14

[Howard-]

Cars are written off and declared uneconomical to repair for a reason.

Old, cheap car where it's been declared a Cat C/D because of a dented door/wing/cracked bumper? Sure.

Newer, expensive car? Noooo thank you.

[daemon]

TooMany2cvs said:

daemon said:

TooMany2cvs said:

...which would still have been repaired, without trace, but for paperwork factors. If the damage was more than the value, it'd be CatC.

TBH, get the bonnet and bumper off that, and I don't think it's going to be half as bad as it looks.
http://www.copart.co.uk/uk/Lot/17218806?searchId=7...

OTOH, £11,500 PAV, £1,700 bid so far, with a day to go - and reserve not met. I think that's going to be fed back into the food chain for breaking.

Equally, how many shonky-insurance-repair threads are there on here?

If it was bought by somebody to repair and run, then it may very well have been repaired a lot better than by a by-the-numbers insurance outfit whose margin has been chopped to the minimum.

I'm not sure the argument "its ok to buy a cat d repaired car because sometimes insurance companies repair badly damaged cars and some insurance repair companies dont do a good job" really answers the question "Are Cat D cars worth the risk?". Its just really saying "well there are other potentially badly repaired cars out there anyway"?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Original_NT said:

due to impending fatherhood should I avoid it completely?

Eh??

[J4CKO]

Howard- said:

Cars are written off and declared uneconomical to repair for a reason.

Old, cheap car where it's been declared a Cat C/D because of a dented door/wing/cracked bumper? Sure.

Newer, expensive car? Noooo thank you.

Because of the massive repair costs, courtesy cars etc, these otherwise perfectly repairsble cars would go for scrap, just need to go in eyes open, have some photos and get them for a price that reflects their "tainted" status, after a week you would most like forget, until it is time to sell.

There are bargains to be had, like higher mileage motors, just need to be on the ball.

You can get low mileage cars that have never had so much as a scratch that are total lemons.

[daemon]

J4CKO said:

Howard- said:

Cars are written off and declared uneconomical to repair for a reason.

Old, cheap car where it's been declared a Cat C/D because of a dented door/wing/cracked bumper? Sure.

Newer, expensive car? Noooo thank you.

Because of the massive repair costs, courtesy cars etc, these otherwise perfectly repairsble cars would go for scrap, just need to go in eyes open, have some photos and get them for a price that reflects their "tainted" status, after a week you would most like forget, until it is time to sell.

There are bargains to be had, like higher mileage motors, just need to be on the ball.

You can get low mileage cars that have never had so much as a scratch that are total lemons.

Technically, they're not bargains though are they, because they're Cat D or C then they will always have that status attached to them and thus are worth proportionally less.

And its a self perpetuating market - they insurers know the cars wont go for scrap they know they still have a market value by people who'll put them back on the road, so because of the market value in salvage more cars are written off because its cheaper overall.

[e21Mark]

I'd be inclined to buy the type and/or price of vehicle and run it into the ground, as opposed to buying something where resale value is an important factor.

[daemon]

TooMany2cvs said:

daemon said:

Register1 said:

A cat "D" could be for example,
It may have been keyed, all the way around, and needed a full respray.
The cost of a good respray could turn some great cars into a cat "D"

TooMany2cvs said:

CatD is just few months of depreciation, a hire car or a grumpy assessor away from having been repaired by the insurance with no paperwork trace.

Absolutely.

And likewise it might have looked like this....

...which would still have been repaired, without trace, but for paperwork factors. If the damage was more than the value, it'd be CatC.

TBH, get the bonnet and bumper off that, and I don't think it's going to be half as bad as it looks.
http://www.copart.co.uk/uk/Lot/17218806?searchId=7...

OTOH, £11,500 PAV, £1,700 bid so far, with a day to go - and reserve not met. I think that's going to be fed back into the food chain for breaking.

I think most of their bids go on on the last day / last few hours, just like ebay.

And i'm not saying its not repairing or shouldnt be repaired its the fact that there are people who think - and who will buy in to what the guy selling it tells them - that "it just needed a bumper and a bonnet" when its all finished and polished up.

[J4CKO]

daemon said:

J4CKO said:

Howard- said:

Cars are written off and declared uneconomical to repair for a reason.

Old, cheap car where it's been declared a Cat C/D because of a dented door/wing/cracked bumper? Sure.

Newer, expensive car? Noooo thank you.

Because of the massive repair costs, courtesy cars etc, these otherwise perfectly repairsble cars would go for scrap, just need to go in eyes open, have some photos and get them for a price that reflects their "tainted" status, after a week you would most like forget, until it is time to sell.

There are bargains to be had, like higher mileage motors, just need to be on the ball.

You can get low mileage cars that have never had so much as a scratch that are total lemons.

Technically, they're not bargains though are they, because they're Cat D or C then they will always have that status attached to them and thus are worth proportionally less.

And its a self perpetuating market - they insurers know the cars wont go for scrap they know they still have a market value by people who'll put them back on the road, so because of the market value in salvage more cars are written off because its cheaper overall.

It is perhaps a cheaper entry into owning that specific car, I wouldnt be all that worried about that Jag if the photos are available, I suppose people who buy them further down the line might be less concerned.

My dad and uncle used to buy the odd cars with light damage and sort them out, I ran a couple but they were only cheapies, my cousin bought a nearly new front end damaged Golf Mk3 when they were new, he ran it for like 150k, got it super cheap, fixed it with secondhand bits and ran it for ages, then flogged it on to his brother in law.

I think sometimes we put too much store in Main dealer service histories and the lack of a cat C/D marker, I mentioned a while back my Mother in Laws A190 Mercedes, smashed pretty hard at 2 years old, I thought it would be a write off but it got repaired and was fine but that would never show to a prospective buyer.

Cars are designed to be repaired, doesnt worry me and I may go for one next, but it does need to be cheap, not because of any actual problem with the car, just the stigma with the cat D marker.

People buy classics that have been ground up rebuilt, had loads of welding etc, a modern motor that has had a few panels replaced and a bit of paint concerns me far less.

[daemon]

J4CKO said:

It is perhaps a cheaper entry into owning that specific car, I wouldnt be all that worried about that Jag if the photos are available, I suppose people who buy them further down the line might be less concerned.

Agreed. I'd be happy with that car.

The problems i have are :-

(a) too many times there are never photos available of the pre accident state.
(b) The seller invariably says "it just needed a wing and a bonnet" or similar.
(c) If its being resold by someone as a sideline then chances are corners have been cut during the repair to save money.

I know various bodymen and i've seen them rebuild many cars and even the very best of them cut corners. Used parts are commonly used - no particular issue but what if it was a strut out of a 90K mile car or out of a 2.0 diesel variant instead of a 1.4 petrol? Used bumpers are bought cheap that are cracked or have previous light damage and then repaired. Panels with light damage get a skim of fillers instead of being replaced. Cracked / badly chipped alloys repaired instead of replaced. Pattern fit parts instead of genuine panels, and cheap motor factors bits instead of genuine mechanicals. Maybe damaged wiring looms repaired. Unseen panels not replaced.

A fresh coat a paint and a valet and no-ones the wiser.

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes we put too much store in Main dealer service histories and the lack of a cat C/D marker, I mentioned a while back my Mother in Laws A190 Mercedes, smashed pretty hard at 2 years old, I thought it would be a write off but it got repaired and was fine but that would never show to a prospective buyer.

Cars are designed to be repaired, doesnt worry me and I may go for one next, but it does need to be cheap, not because of any actual problem with the car, just the stigma with the cat D marker.

People buy classics that have been ground up rebuilt, had loads of welding etc, a modern motor that has had a few panels replaced and a bit of paint concerns me far less.

I dont have the blind faith you seem to have in recommending the O/P buys a Cat D car bought off a complete stranger who most likely did it to make money. Just far far too many variables for my liking.

[J4CKO]

daemon said:

J4CKO said:

It is perhaps a cheaper entry into owning that specific car, I wouldnt be all that worried about that Jag if the photos are available, I suppose people who buy them further down the line might be less concerned.

Agreed. I'd be happy with that car.

The problems i have are :-

(a) too many times there are never photos available of the pre accident state.
(b) The seller invariably says "it just needed a wing and a bonnet" or similar.
(c) If its being resold by someone as a sideline then chances are corners have been cut during the repair to save money.

I know various bodymen and i've seen them rebuild many cars and even the very best of them cut corners. Used parts are commonly used - no particular issue but what if it was a strut out of a 90K mile car or out of a 2.0 diesel variant instead of a 1.4 petrol? Used bumpers are bought cheap that are cracked or have previous light damage and then repaired. Panels with light damage get a skim of fillers instead of being replaced. Cracked / badly chipped alloys repaired instead of replaced. Pattern fit parts instead of genuine panels, and cheap motor factors bits instead of genuine mechanicals. Maybe damaged wiring looms repaired. Unseen panels not replaced.

A fresh coat a paint and a valet and no-ones the wiser.

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes we put too much store in Main dealer service histories and the lack of a cat C/D marker, I mentioned a while back my Mother in Laws A190 Mercedes, smashed pretty hard at 2 years old, I thought it would be a write off but it got repaired and was fine but that would never show to a prospective buyer.

Cars are designed to be repaired, doesnt worry me and I may go for one next, but it does need to be cheap, not because of any actual problem with the car, just the stigma with the cat D marker.

People buy classics that have been ground up rebuilt, had loads of welding etc, a modern motor that has had a few panels replaced and a bit of paint concerns me far less.

I dont have the blind faith you seem to have in recommending the O/P buys a Cat D car bought off a complete stranger who most likely did it to make money. Just far far too many variables for my liking.

Buying secondhand cars is all about variables, no blind faith, I am deeply suspicious and check things extensively, you can still get a badly repaired, unreliable heap if its not got the marker, I am a big fan of checking, doing due dilligence, or if it doesnt feel right or doesnt add up, walking away.

The Jag, based on the ad looks right, though it has had 4 owners in six years, I would speak to the seller and see if his sotry sounds plausible, go and see, it get it inspected, and bid him 15k, then walk away if he said no, can always go back in ten mins


I would also say that with cars, any cars, be prepared to leave it if it doesnt add up, even if you have travelled and spent money on a car check, even a deposit, it is best to walk away and trsut your instincts.

We nearly bought a Metro GTA years back, didnt add up, car was nice enough but it turned out to be a ringer, was difficult to turn down but it was a stty area, dodgy seller who didnt have many answers.

Edited by J4CKO on Sunday 24th July 21:54

[daemon]

J4CKO said:

Buying secondhand cars is all about variables, no blind faith, I am deeply suspicious and check things extensively, you can still get a badly repaired, unreliable heap if its not got the marker, I am a big fan of checking, doing due dilligence, or if it doesnt feel right or doesnt add up, walking away.

The Jag, based on the ad looks right, though it has had 4 owners in six years, I would speak to the seller and see if his sotry sounds plausible, go and see, it get it inspected, and bid him 15k, then walk away if he said no, can always go back in ten mins


I would also say that with cars, any cars, be prepared to leave it if it doesnt add up, even if you have travelled and spent money on a car check, even a deposit, it is best to walk away and trsut your instincts.

We nearly bought a Metro GTA years back, didnt add up, car was nice enough but it turned out to be a ringer, was difficult to turn down but it was a stty area, dodgy seller who didnt have many answers.

Edited by J4CKO on Sunday 24th July 21:54

Cool. I'm with you on all that.

[Howard-]

J4CKO said:

Because of the massive repair costs, courtesy cars etc, these otherwise perfectly repairsble cars would go for scrap

Exactly, which is why buying a cheap Cat D car is more than likely to be fine, and buying an expensive Cat D car is more than likely to have had plenty of corners cut during the repair process, all in the name of profit maximisation and/or "this isn't necessary, it'll be fine / nobody will notice".

[Ilovejapcrap]

Have anyone ever asked themselves why the big car company holding compounds have body shops. Even some of the new cars have repair work, some more serious than you think.

People who buy a new car then assume it's not had any repair work are dreaming. They get damaged all the time with transport etc.

[wack]

J4CKO said:

daemon said:

J4CKO said:

How about that xfr up for sale at 16 grand, photos available, would you seen sixteen grand on a cat d, car looks perfect and was repaired at a jag dealer.


So cat d status vs two year older example with twice the mileage ?

I assume you're talking about this one?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Yup, would tick the boxes for me - repaired by a reputable dealer, invoices, pre-accident pictures, decent saving.

The only thing to consider there is other than on the asking price right now, what are you saving? Come resale time it will be worth proportionally less and it could be harder to sell. Granted, as it moves towards zero value it wont matter so much, but what about in say 3 years? If a non Cat D one is £12K, this one might be worth £8/9K

Yes, that is the car, was on my phone and finding it was proving fiddly, but future value is a consideration, though I think it is perhaps less of a concern as the cars dwindle in value natrually anyway, in the meantime I would have a fantastic car, would go in a bit lower that £16,450 based on how long its been around, damage limitation for when the time comes to move it on.

For me though it is down to budget, and that one has 50 k, some of the others are ell over 100, which isnt a barrier to me buying it, not scared of a few miles, my current CLS has 115 up now, but would always favour a newer, lower mileage example, and the paint where it got ht will be especially good !

15/16 grand for me will be do-able at some point soon, but 20, 25 is stretching it unless something changes like a lottery win.

Wonder if the XFR will follow the depreciation curve of other jags ? or will a 500 bhp car always have some value, because its fast ?

I don't suppose anyone noted any contact details for the Cat D XFR, it's gone from autotrader