cars with good engineering

[Bodo]

Rayy said:

Got to add the Mercedes W124. Does what's intended beautifully, solid as a rock. And yes you can change practically any lamp bulb in seconds.

Can't agree with the classic Mini mentioned earlier. Ours rusted like fury and needed a gearbox and suspension rebuild before 30k miles.

I agree on both points. The W124 feels very solid; and it's not wearing off easily! I've seen examples with 300k on the clock, and their interior looks like new!

[powerstroke]

swlove said:

powerstroke said:

The defender must be the UKs overrated vehicle just dire and a sick joke in most countrys where a reliable vehicle is a matter of life or death ...

I knew some would not like my example of the Defender but this thread is not about the pros and cons of the Defender it is about good engineering.
Let's stay on topic as much as possible.

As engineering goes they are ste , the ingredents are good for a serious off roader, live axles with coil l springs,wheel at each corner etc , poor quality and cheese paring parts let them down... try G wagon, 78 series land cruiser or suzuki jimmny even !! same sort of bits but better engineering...

[caelite]

Trabi601 said:

caelite said:

I would say VAG from the late 90s to mid 00s, so many good engines and great designed cars. Then it all went a bit tits up.

Good call - I had a B5 Passat with silly miles on it. The 1.8T engine was a gem, and the trick front suspension meant it handled pretty well, even though the engine was mostly in front of the front axle! Build quality was astounding for a mass-produced car. I really miss that car.

Aye the 1.8t was a gem, pal had a leon cupra with it and it flew. I had a little fabia vrs with the 1.9tdi and that was a fantastically designed wee motor

[whoami]

swlove said:

powerstroke said:

The defender must be the UKs overrated vehicle just dire and a sick joke in most countrys where a reliable vehicle is a matter of life or death ...

I knew some would not like my example of the Defender but this thread is not about the pros and cons of the Defender it is about good engineering.
Let's stay on topic as much as possible.

The "engineering" on the Defender is poor.

Mine, which I loved, was bought to off-road.

Half-shafts, diffs, CV joints etc, they all broke, with frequent regularity.

That's why there's such a thriving aftermarket for properly engineered alternatives.

I still loved it.

[Mr Tidy]

I had a Leon Cupra years ago, and it did go well!

But it wasn't anything special engineering-wise! The door seals leaked like a sieve, the sump was barely 4 inches off the ground so I had to modify the bracket for my gate so it could go over it.........

[wack]

swlove said:

I knew that not everyone would agree on the Defender. However they do not break easily, they last for many decades, they are easy to fix and parts of them are well engineered (for the time they were designed in).

A Toyota LandCruiser is probably better engineered (however I still don't like them, engineering is definitely not everything that makes me like a car).

I've owned 3 defenders , a guy on landyzone went into a main dealer for parts, sat in a 40k new one , looked down and saw light through the door seal which was reassuring to him as his did that

They may last forever but it's enthusiasts that make that happen , they're like an old Labrador , well past the use by date but who wants to take it to the vet for the injection

[ITP]

Of all the cars i've had (british,german, japanese, french, italian,swedish, i've tried most) one of my current cars is the best engineered, in terms of quality. A Lexus RX400h. Its done nearly 90k and feels exactly like it did when i got it. Not one squeak or rattle, even the bulbs are all original and everything still works like new.

[Tango13]

BMW's of the e3X vintage, anything from the e30 to the e39 were engineered to a standard, not a price.

The only thing to let me down on my e34 was the gearbox, not a BMW item. My e36 coupe was killed when someone else drove into the back of it and for the past 110,000 miles I've worked my e39 M5 harder than a 14 year old works his todger when viewing his first grumble mag.

[Dubmaster77]

Bmw E39.

Alloy suspension. The 6 cylinder engine was at the time considred one of the best in the world. Cosseting yet with the M etc suspension went down country lanes better than my Mk2 golf GTI. Incredible machines The M5 more so though I have not owned one, but would have one as a second car for sure.

[Aidancky]

I'm going to say something very Un-PH, but the Mark 1 Toyota Yaris!

Overall very well designed, reasonable quality materials used, very little issues with any of the parts.
Lots of thought put into maintenance and part removal.

[daveofedinburgh]

LordHaveMurci said:

Owned one for 7yrs, most of the issues are massively overblown

Really pushing my luck in a thread titled 'cars with good engineering', but I will also put forward the 996 on account of it being unjustly unloved (imho), if not the best possible car re OPs stipulation.

Yes, the accountants/ penny-pinchers were too involved. It was the first 911 to have an engine which wasn't a 'proper 911 engine'. The interior was notably designed/ built to a cost. The headlamps were the only generation which weren't 'proper (read; 'not round') 911 headlamps'. There were issues with the IMS bearing, and bore-scoring mainly in the 3.6 facelift (which also carried over into the 997 model IIRC).

And yet, enough time having now passed, it is starting to be regarded as the desirable 911 that it is. The IMS issue (as I understand it) affects less than 5% of 996s made- yes, it's not a great example of 'good engineering', but certainly seems to be an overblown issue when put in this context.

The 'fried-egg' headlamps (and indeed the facelift headlamps) are no longer aesthetically jarring as they once were. Narrow-bodied early 996s are now looking like the last hurrah of simple, uncomplicated 911 design, and values are rising accordingly. C4S and Turbo models have already surpassed the 'affordable' price point.

They also represent something of a last hurrah for truly 'analogue' (ugh, apologies) 911s sans driver aids. Admittedly, this claim could also be made for some 997s the argument in the 996s favour being that they are currently available for virtually half the price of a decent 997.

I put forward the 996 only in the context of it being a 911 (which rightly or wrongly is a car mentioned by many in the same breath as a Ferrari or Lamborghini) which is still available for not much more than £10K. Where else can you get into such a prestigious, well-regarded marque/ model/ level of engineering at this price point? With the caveat of it being 'affordable', and (stretching the definition to breaking point) a 'supercar', it is an example of a 'car with good engineering'.

Based on my personal ownership experiences, I'd nominate;

-mk1 MX5. Doesn't go wrong, ever. Classically good looking. Great to drive. STILL cheap as chips. Bought an auto(!) as a London commuter- faultless, cheap workhorse.

-mkiv Supra. Doesn't go wrong, ever (unless it's messed-with TT). Great to drive. No longer cheap. Get in now if you want an affordable performance icon that you can use before they go stratospheric.

[GravelBen]

AmitG said:

So far it looks like Subaru is coming up a lot...

Its funny the little things you notice and realise someone actually thought about that.

A while back I was doing something under my Legacy (can't remember what) and noticed a hole cast into a suspension arm. Had no idea what it was for until I jacked the car up, and with the suspension droop the hole lined up perfectly to poke a socket through onto an otherwise obscured bolt. Simple, but thoughtful.

[Hungrymc]

GravelBen said:

Its funny the little things you notice and realise someone actually thought about that.

A while back I was doing something under my Legacy (can't remember what) and noticed a hole cast into a suspension arm. Had no idea what it was for until I jacked the car up, and with the suspension droop the hole lined up perfectly to poke a socket through onto an otherwise obscured bolt. Simple, but thoughtful.

Just a thought.... There is always a cost / benefit analysis with things like this. Sometimes it may make more sense to keep the arm simple and maybe require a special tool to get to the difficult fixing. Good engineering needs to satisfy all requirements and there are always some completely contradictory ones and cost will be a factor.

I'll clarify that I'm not saying your example is wrong, only that it must be very difficult to decide to spend extra money on tooling / materials / production / design to simplify access to a rarely needed fixing. When it can be done for no investment other than an extra few moments of design (which I guess is the case here), then it is very good engineering.


How about some over engineering? There has been some discussion about 996 / 986 Porsche. To change the headlight bulb. You turn a fixing through 180 degrees, this turns a cranked arm which releases and moves forward the headlight unit and out she comes. The harness connector is automatically connected / disconnected when the lamp finds or leaves it's home position. I can't decide if the whole thing is genius or over complex.

[66mpg]

Many years ago I had to replace a snapped fan belt on a Mercedes 406D van. Used to other vehicles I was puzzled when I could not move the alternator to tension the belt by levering it away from the engine with a big screwdriver. On closer inspection I found that Mercedes had used a threaded linkage to position the alternator so the correct tension could be achieved by merely twirling the adjuster with a spanner. So much easier than trying to tighten the mounting bolts while maintaining the correct tension with a lever.

[blueg33]

Not sure if this is true but i read a few years ago that a Toyota door handle has around five parts, a VW door handle that does the same job has around 30 parts.

At the time VW way less reliable than Toyota. Simple is better.

[stuckmojo]

Hugely biased comment, but I would say the G wagen is built to a spec, rather than to a cost.

Having had a few bits done to mine I can only admire the solidity and the design approach.

[LordHaveMurci]

Hungrymc said:

Just a thought.... There is always a cost / benefit analysis with things like this. Sometimes it may make more sense to keep the arm simple and maybe require a special tool to get to the difficult fixing. Good engineering needs to satisfy all requirements and there are always some completely contradictory ones and cost will be a factor.

I'll clarify that I'm not saying your example is wrong, only that it must be very difficult to decide to spend extra money on tooling / materials / production / design to simplify access to a rarely needed fixing. When it can be done for no investment other than an extra few moments of design (which I guess is the case here), then it is very good engineering.


How about some over engineering? There has been some discussion about 996 / 986 Porsche. To change the headlight bulb. You turn a fixing through 180 degrees, this turns a cranked arm which releases and moves forward the headlight unit and out she comes. The harness connector is automatically connected / disconnected when the lamp finds or leaves it's home position. I can't decide if the whole thing is genius or over complex.

Either way, it's a joy to use

[HustleRussell]

My BMW E34 is great, generously sized fasteners which even at 20 years old still have the lovely yellow passivate coating, you can do everything underneath with about four different sockets, nothing has seized.

[rxe]

Ever changed a clutch on an old Vauxhall Astra? We had one dating from about 1987, and it was a 30 minute job. Given the way my mum rode the clutch on that thing, it was a good thing, I changed it 3 times in 150k miles.

All you had to do was pop a driveshaft off, slide the entire gearbox main shaft sideways, and once you'd undone the pressure plate bolts, the whole lot dropped out. The new one self aligned on the main shaft and took about 5 minutes to assemble. A quite fantastic bit of design.

[sinbaddio]

Left field choice, Peugeot 504. Why? Firstly as a kid my dads 504 estate carried the 7 of us in amazing comfort on many holidays. And it never broke down. Secondly, thousands of them still pound around Australia and Africa in the worst conditions clocking up hundreds of thousands of miles. Built to last by a company that probably isn't revered for that particular quality. Interesting read about a particular high miler and its life below:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/million...