Can I afford to run these cars?

[Zippee]

Blimey!
Asking about annual cost of running is IMHO totally different to affordability. It’s this question that can help you decide if something is worth the outlay, not just purely if you have the money but if you can justify it versus what you will gain form it. You may be able to afford £1200 worth of tyres every 3 months but would you see it as worth it? You may not know about the fact ‘x’ car needs those tyres so often and unless you ask how do you find out?
Back to the Ops conundrum, a 40k R8 could easily cost the same to run as a 10k M3 or a 20k 997 – it’s more the actual purchase price that would worry me versus not only your salary but more importantly the amount you need to finance as a % of it. All 3 of those cars have the potential to have ruinous running costs, do your homework carefully and ignore some on here and enquire as much as you can as to real life costs.
Personally I still think the Lotus, as mentioned a few times, would be your best bet  and remember to have enough money aside to actually still have a life.
I remember a PHer commenting on here about a conversation he heard once in a petrol station. Young girl turned up in her spanking new BMW convertible, put just a tenners worth of fuel in it – turning to her mate and saying it was all she had as she had to make the finance payment later that week. Buy a car to enjoy, not to stare at because you can’t afford to run it that week.

[xRIEx]

boobles said:

Don't buy expensive toys if you have to calculate annual costs etc. Simples.

Back to this one, let's see if we can get somewhere:
- I calculate annual costs to be £3000 per year (not including fuel)
- I calculate my income and outgoings, budget for holidays, savings, and occasional necessities (clothes, etc) and work out I have £5000 per year additional
- the conclusion of these calculations is that I can afford the expensive toy
- however your 'logic' dictates that because I've performed the calculations, I actually can't afford it.

Therefore, because I know I can afford it, I can't afford it.

Hmmm, not so simples.

[R8Steve]

xRIEx said:

boobles said:

Don't buy expensive toys if you have to calculate annual costs etc. Simples.

Back to this one, let's see if we can get somewhere:
- I calculate annual costs to be £3000 per year (not including fuel)
- I calculate my income and outgoings, budget for holidays, savings, and occasional necessities (clothes, etc) and work out I have £5000 per year additional
- the conclusion of these calculations is that I can afford the expensive toy
- however your 'logic' dictates that because I've performed the calculations, I actually can't afford it.

Therefore, because I know I can afford it, I can't afford it.

Hmmm, not so simples.

Exactly, it's daft logic like that that ends up getting people INTO problems instead of keeping them out of them.

Any one of the thousands of big boats that sit unused in marinas everywhere (to keep with the expensive toy situation) can testify to that.

'Hello there sir, are you interested in the new Sunseeker Manhattan?'

'Oh, yes, i'll take it.'

'Would you not like to know how much it costs?'

'Oh no, no need for that, if i was to ask how much it is i clearly couldn't afford it, i'll just take it.'

Que the following month it sits unused due to the fact it costs 10k a month just to fuel it, a situation that could have easily been avoided of course by asking a simple question - Can i afford this?

[GuitarPlayer63]

Blimey, there's a lot of folk on here who don't really want you to drive a great car; bizarre, I always thought Pistonheads = pertrolheads - shows you how wrong you can be!

I run an eight year old Gen2 911 (997) doing around 8,000 - 9,000 miles.

Overall running costs per year are I think somewhere around £6K on average (had it 5 years).

That covers:
Fuel,
Insurance,
Road Tax,
MOT,
Porsche Warranty (up to 15 YO cars) which covers most things
Porsche Assist
Tyres,
Servicing every 2 years (20,000 miles between services)

As many people have said, if something big goes and its not covered by warranty then it is expensive, but interest free credit cards are great at spreading that cost (service bills are big, but not frequent thankfully).
In spite of all the doom-mongers saying you can't, you can, its a choice of driving with a smile every time or wear the hair shirt some other posters might like you to. None of us can take any of this with us and I'd personally rather say "I did" than "I wish I had..."

I have looked at several other cars and the reliability / run costs can be daunting. The trick is, talk to people who own them and find out the facts. Then you will know in your own mind what works (man maths is a great thing)!

HTH and enjoy whatever you settle for...

[Shnozz]

Hungrymc said:

Ranchitup said:

What are running costs usually like for a Porsche 997? Anything in particular I need to watch out for?

There are some really good looking examples on PH for decent mileage for around £20k odd. I can save up some money for a decent deposit to make use of the winter price drop.

I've just sold a 996 C4S. Not a perfect comparison but to give an idea... Using a good independent (I think you said earlier that you wouldn't be doing much yourself). I found that one year I'd have maintenance and service costs of circa £1000 and the next might be £4000, then back to £1000 again. This doesn't include insurance etc - purely the cash I spent with my local independent. Nothing major went wrong but I did replace clutch, several radiators / condensers, have a diff rebuilt, replace discs, loads of back tyres etc. I had the car 6 years and really enjoyed it. 997s will also be on a service every 2nd year.

Do a bit of research on the reliability questions over these engines (996 and Gen1 997 - Gen2 cars are more expensive 35K+) and have your eyes wide open. I know loads of people who have ran these cars with no issue, but there is clearly a slightly elevated risk of needing a major rebuild than on some other cars - its a case of either ensure you've a good warranty, keep a war chest and be prepared to use it, or be happy enough with the risk and deal with it if it happens.... They are fabulous cars.

I had similar running a Boxster S some years ago. £1k service one year but then a £4k service another.

I don't want to open the can of worms that is the engine issues in the 996 and 997, suffice to say if I was to look at getting back into one I would go down the route of the Hartech maintenance plan - obviously that might be a geographical issue dependent on where you are based.

[boobles]

xRIEx said:

boobles said:

R8Steve said:

C70R said:

R8Steve said:

boobles said:

Don't buy expensive toys if you have to calculate annual costs etc. Simples.

Sorry, but only a complete idiot would do this.

How exactly would you know if you could afford it without calculating annual costs?

So basically neither of you read his post, but like to sound clever?

Perhaps you would like to point out what part of the post i didn't read? Or do you just like to sound clever?

I don't think it takes a genius to work out that if you earn lets say 30k per year & you want to buy a million pound house & a Lamborghini parked in the drive that it simply isn't going to happen. That is what I basing my theory on. Sorry I had to explain this.

OK, what about if I earn £30k and want to buy a £10k CL600 Biturbo? Can I afford that? Does it matter if my monthly mortgages payments are £900?

Wait, let's have a different situation:
Let's say I earn £90k per year and I want a £15k Focus, if I either ask the question "can I afford it?" on PH or even just out loud to myself, does that mean I automatically can't afford it just because I've asked the question? Does the verbalisation of four words in the form of a question immediately negate whatever income and savings assets I have, or is that just a completely fking moronic point of view?

Get a proper job you & drive what you can "REALLY" afford!

[Hungrymc]

Leins said:

Ranchitup said:

Hungrymc said:

I've just sold a 996 C4S. Not a perfect comparison but to give an idea... Using a good independent (I think you said earlier that you wouldn't be doing much yourself). I found that one year I'd have maintenance and service costs of circa £1000 and the next might be £4000, then back to £1000 again. This doesn't include insurance etc - purely the cash I spent with my local independent. Nothing major went wrong but I did replace clutch, several radiators / condensers, have a diff rebuilt, replace discs, loads of back tyres etc. I had the car 6 years and really enjoyed it. 997s will also be on a service every 2nd year.

Do a bit of research on the reliability questions over these engines (996 and Gen1 997 - Gen2 cars are more expensive 35K+) and have your eyes wide open. I know loads of people who have ran these cars with no issue, but there is clearly a slightly elevated risk of needing a major rebuild than on some other cars - its a case of either ensure you've a good warranty, keep a war chest and be prepared to use it, or be happy enough with the risk and deal with it if it happens.... They are fabulous cars.

Ah thanks for this. So guidance figure of say £1k a year which isn't so bad on maintenance. Yeah I don't have the necessary know -how to fiddle with the car myself at all.

I will deffo do more research now. Looking at 997's and they look really nice. Need to test drive one soonish!

I think you need to re-read HungryMC's post again. £1k will be the minimum for a year's servicing, with the ability to handle a much larger bill some years when other maintenance is required

You're right leins. OP, I'd use £2.5K as a reasonable annual maintenance figure. You could only run the car for 18 months and never do a service or change a tyre, or you could be unlucky and get a bad year. Four tyres, brakes and a clutch will do £3k but I don't think this would be any better in the other cars you're considering. An engine rebuild is going to be £10K - £12K and this probably is a higher risk with a 996 or gen1 997, but that's another topic and we shouldn't let it derail this thread. I also know many (including me) who have had no issues, and you see plenty of 120,000 mile cars.

In summary, you can minimise your risk...Buy a 911 that's just serviced and on new tyres and brakes, buy a 2 year warranty (not cheap) - and sell again in 18 months before next service... I've never been brave enough to buy a car on the assumption I'll be back out of it before a bill comes in. I took the war chest approach with my 911 - I budgeted in the possible rebuild and was delighted after 6 years to have not had to spend it.

All these cars, particularly when they are a few years old, have a knack of costing more than you anticipate - just try to make sure that if these costs do start to appear that you can cope, AND that it wont take away the pleasure that you hope to get from the car.

[jamieduff1981]

boobles said:

xRIEx said:

boobles said:

R8Steve said:

C70R said:

R8Steve said:

boobles said:

Don't buy expensive toys if you have to calculate annual costs etc. Simples.

Sorry, but only a complete idiot would do this.

How exactly would you know if you could afford it without calculating annual costs?

So basically neither of you read his post, but like to sound clever?

Perhaps you would like to point out what part of the post i didn't read? Or do you just like to sound clever?

I don't think it takes a genius to work out that if you earn lets say 30k per year & you want to buy a million pound house & a Lamborghini parked in the drive that it simply isn't going to happen. That is what I basing my theory on. Sorry I had to explain this.

OK, what about if I earn £30k and want to buy a £10k CL600 Biturbo? Can I afford that? Does it matter if my monthly mortgages payments are £900?

Wait, let's have a different situation:
Let's say I earn £90k per year and I want a £15k Focus, if I either ask the question "can I afford it?" on PH or even just out loud to myself, does that mean I automatically can't afford it just because I've asked the question? Does the verbalisation of four words in the form of a question immediately negate whatever income and savings assets I have, or is that just a completely fking moronic point of view?

Get a proper job you & drive what you can "REALLY" afford!

I submit to the audience that a wealthy person will not stay wealthy for long if they make a habit of jumping in to expensive ownerships with their eyes shut.

[996TT02]

Ranchitup said:

Ah thanks for this. So guidance figure of say £1k a year which isn't so bad on maintenance. Yeah I don't have the necessary know -how to fiddle with the car myself at all.

I will deffo do more research now. Looking at 997's and they look really nice. Need to test drive one soonish!

Apologies did not read all the thread so may be off somewhat.

You will not get away with paying just 1K p.a. in maintenance on a 996 unless you are extremely lucky.

Mine - with relatively low mileage, 60-something k - has spent more time having things done than being driven.

Just sorted out gearbox bearing (Over 1k in parts alone), then as soon as I took it away, within the first tankful of fuel, diff gave up. Diff being sorted, noted that one engine mount failed, so just bought a pair of those too. Neverending saga, all I seem to be doing is fixing this car up, and it was a nice example when purchased (previous owner had just spent 3.5k, too...)

[R8Steve]

996TT02 said:

Ranchitup said:

Ah thanks for this. So guidance figure of say £1k a year which isn't so bad on maintenance. Yeah I don't have the necessary know -how to fiddle with the car myself at all.

I will deffo do more research now. Looking at 997's and they look really nice. Need to test drive one soonish!

Apologies did not read all the thread so may be off somewhat.

You will not get away with paying just 1K p.a. in maintenance on a 996 unless you are extremely lucky.

Mine - with relatively low mileage, 60-something k - has spent more time having things done than being driven.

Just sorted out gearbox bearing (Over 1k in parts alone), then as soon as I took it away, within the first tankful of fuel, diff gave up. Diff being sorted, noted that one engine mount failed, so just bought a pair of those too. Neverending saga, all I seem to be doing is fixing this car up, and it was a nice example when purchased (previous owner had just spent 3.5k, too...)

Reading that i'd say you were rather unlucky.

I ran a 996 Turbo for 2 years with just routine servicing/maintenance required.

[996TT02]

R8Steve said:

996TT02 said:

Ranchitup said:

Ah thanks for this. So guidance figure of say £1k a year which isn't so bad on maintenance. Yeah I don't have the necessary know -how to fiddle with the car myself at all.

I will deffo do more research now. Looking at 997's and they look really nice. Need to test drive one soonish!

Apologies did not read all the thread so may be off somewhat.

You will not get away with paying just 1K p.a. in maintenance on a 996 unless you are extremely lucky.

Mine - with relatively low mileage, 60-something k - has spent more time having things done than being driven.

Just sorted out gearbox bearing (Over 1k in parts alone), then as soon as I took it away, within the first tankful of fuel, diff gave up. Diff being sorted, noted that one engine mount failed, so just bought a pair of those too. Neverending saga, all I seem to be doing is fixing this car up, and it was a nice example when purchased (previous owner had just spent 3.5k, too...)

Reading that i'd say you were rather unlucky.

I ran a 996 Turbo for 2 years with just routine servicing/maintenance required.

My first two years were relatively straightforward too, only radiators/condensers, but now anything "they all do that, sir" I am getting!

[Joey Ramone]

I would encourage the OP to purchase an R8 forthwith for two reasons

1) If he purchases his dream car and has a blissful experience then not only will I feel happy for him, but I may be encouraged to do the same

2) If his finances implode and he ends up living in a cardboard box under a bridge hiding from Albanian money lenders I shall cackle mercilessly, lit by the glow of my schadenfreude.

Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

[Hungrymc]

R8 and TT.... Great examples of the nature of these cars - you can be lucky (which is still an average £2.5K / year), or the bigger bills can come....I'd want to be happy I could cope with the bills (or had a great warranty) as otherwise, it would be hanging over me like a dark cloud and spoiling the fun.

[Shnozz]

Hungrymc said:

R8 and TT.... Great examples of the nature of these cars - you can be lucky (which is still an average £2.5K / year), or the bigger bills can come....I'd want to be happy I could cope with the bills (or had a great warranty) as otherwise, it would be hanging over me like a dark cloud and spoiling the fun.

I was quoted £1400 - £1600 on a warranty on an R8 last week. Given the propensity for relatively chunky bills this seemed extremely reasonable and surely makes sense to have a fixed cost when buying, particularly when its on a relatively modest and finite monthly disposable.

As I say, same with the Hartech plan is going Pork.

[Just an old porsche fan]

RWD cossie wil said:

Some dealers must be laughing all the way to the bank with some of the figures quoted come service time?!

Do people seriously still take their cars to main dealers for basic work like brakes, tyres, oil changes etc? No wonder you are getting 6k service bills!!!!!

If your refereing to my 6K service there is logic in me taking it to my local OPC. The value of these cars is increasing, you can't deny that, so if I was selling it this year, I am not but it was an option, then a fully itemsied bill with a shed load of work from an OPC will only look better to a prespective buyer. Call it protecting my investment if you will. Normally it would go to a indy but with Porsche now offering 15% discount on parts and labour on these things and with the porsche owners club discount as well the local OPC isn't as expensive as you think.


Looking clean for a change



Best £300 I ever spent with added go faster leafs




My only bit of engine bling, Forge Motorsport Valves.

Edited by Just an old porsche fan on Wednesday 3rd August 14:51

[_Neal_]

jamieduff1981 said:

I submit to the audience that a wealthy person will not stay wealthy for long if they make a habit of jumping in to expensive ownerships with their eyes shut.

Quite. I'm sure boobles will confirm he bought all his cars without any research or queries, to avoid rendering himself unable to afford them.

Anyway, back on topic, some good advice for the OP on this thread about real-world running costs, need for a war chest etc etc. 911s looking like a good option, but probably because they're on my list of "cars to own"!

Reading through again, OP, I think set your sights a little lower in terms of overall cost, use a personal loan rather than finance linked to the car, buy carefully (taking residuals into account) and be prepared to get shot of it if the costs get silly and/or the amount you're spending is ruining your enjoyment of the car or stopping you doing the things you want to do.

[Guvernator]

Shnozz said:

I was quoted £1400 - £1600 on a warranty on an R8 last week. Given the propensity for relatively chunky bills this seemed extremely reasonable and surely makes sense to have a fixed cost when buying, particularly when its on a relatively modest and finite monthly disposable.

As I say, same with the Hartech plan is going Pork.

Audi Warranty and a lot of others aren't water tight. Just when you expect them to pick up the bill, they'll leave you high and dry so I wouldn't be relying on it 100%, ask me how I know.

Rapidly starting to think a slush fund and crossed fingers are better value for money.

[Ranchitup]

Hungrymc said:

You're right leins. OP, I'd use £2.5K as a reasonable annual maintenance figure. You could only run the car for 18 months and never do a service or change a tyre, or you could be unlucky and get a bad year. Four tyres, brakes and a clutch will do £3k but I don't think this would be any better in the other cars you're considering. An engine rebuild is going to be £10K - £12K and this probably is a higher risk with a 996 or gen1 997, but that's another topic and we shouldn't let it derail this thread. I also know many (including me) who have had no issues, and you see plenty of 120,000 mile cars.

In summary, you can minimise your risk...Buy a 911 that's just serviced and on new tyres and brakes, buy a 2 year warranty (not cheap) - and sell again in 18 months before next service... I've never been brave enough to buy a car on the assumption I'll be back out of it before a bill comes in. I took the war chest approach with my 911 - I budgeted in the possible rebuild and was delighted after 6 years to have not had to spend it.

All these cars, particularly when they are a few years old, have a knack of costing more than you anticipate - just try to make sure that if these costs do start to appear that you can cope, AND that it wont take away the pleasure that you hope to get from the car.

I’m really oblivious at the moment to Porsche ownership struggles but have noticed people talking about rebuilds a lot. It gives me horrible thoughts of the RX7 and its engine woes. Is this something I really need to factor into when buying a 997? £10-12k on an engine rebuild would make me shed all kinds of tears! I would definitely get warranty to cover that but in my informed head, warranty is around £1k for a year?
Just obtained an insurance quote for a 997 and its £782 a year with £750 excess. Funnily enough, it’s a bit higher than the Maserati (and way higher than a brand new Mustang). R8 insurance is similar too.

996TT02 said:

Apologies did not read all the thread so may be off somewhat.

You will not get away with paying just 1K p.a. in maintenance on a 996 unless you are extremely lucky.

Mine - with relatively low mileage, 60-something k - has spent more time having things done than being driven.

Just sorted out gearbox bearing (Over 1k in parts alone), then as soon as I took it away, within the first tankful of fuel, diff gave up. Diff being sorted, noted that one engine mount failed, so just bought a pair of those too. Neverending saga, all I seem to be doing is fixing this car up, and it was a nice example when purchased (previous owner had just spent 3.5k, too...)

Damn- the maintenance costs on these are quite high then as I thought. Being lucky to spend £1k MINIMUM every year, whilst not a massive problem, does speak volumes regarding this car. I can’t imagine the R8 having significantly higher maintenance costs?

R8Steve said:

Reading that i'd say you were rather unlucky.

I ran a 996 Turbo for 2 years with just routine servicing/maintenance required.

I guess it all boils down to luck then? I’ll obviously be going for more higher mileage cars so the chances of things going wrong are significantly higher. Steve, as you have owned both the R8 and a Porsche; do you really think there’s a massive difference in overall maintenance costs?
I mean, my heart is set on the R8 over the Porsche no doubt but if I am spending £3k a year on the Porsche on maintenance (not including warranty/fuel etc) then the lower monthly cost on paying off finance would be negated. Paying £650 a month for a R8 but having to outlay say £1-2k a year isn’t so bad for the car I’m getting in comparison.

Saw an R8 today and my heart sank 

Joey Ramone said:

I would encourage the OP to purchase an R8 forthwith for two reasons

1) If he purchases his dream car and has a blissful experience then not only will I feel happy for him, but I may be encouraged to do the same

2) If his finances implode and he ends up living in a cardboard box under a bridge hiding from Albanian money lenders I shall cackle mercilessly, lit by the glow of my schadenfreude.

Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

LMAO! It will honestly end up one of those two ways. I will definitely keep you guys updated on my woes. Well time to go on those holidays before I end up moving into my new box under the bridge.

[_Neal_]

Keep us posted OP.

I know it's not what you're really after, but I'd have a very good look at this old Porsche if I was in a position to spend £15-20k on a car at the moment. Hartech lifetime maintenance, condition looks very tidy.

[Ranchitup]

_Neal_ said:

Quite. I'm sure boobles will confirm he bought all his cars without any research or queries, to avoid rendering himself unable to afford them.

Anyway, back on topic, some good advice for the OP on this thread about real-world running costs, need for a war chest etc etc. 911s looking like a good option, but probably because they're on my list of "cars to own"!

Reading through again, OP, I think set your sights a little lower in terms of overall cost, use a personal loan rather than finance linked to the car, buy carefully (taking residuals into account) and be prepared to get shot of it if the costs get silly and/or the amount you're spending is ruining your enjoyment of the car or stopping you doing the things you want to do.

Why would you opt for a personal loan over finance out of interest? I will deffo have a little sinking fund for emergencies that's for sure and yeah; if it becomes a nightmare to maintain then I will definitely get rid of it ASAP!

_Neal_ said:

Keep us posted OP.

I know it's not what you're really after, but I'd have a very good look at this old Porsche if I was in a position to spend £15-20k on a car at the moment. Hartech lifetime maintenance, condition looks very tidy.

Ah thank you for the link to Hartech's maintenance plan. That is really useful and something I would definitely get for peace of mind. The monthly costs are really reasonable too!

edit- ah just noticed that their non-Hartech prices are higher. Still decent though