RE: Noble M600 reborn and revisited

[sjc]

Boshly said:

sjc said:

Blimey Boshly,that's a Hell of a list! ( but no doubt relevant to a lot of people at that price point.

Mine is.. ( for a "drivers/sports car as opposed to a family bus).
Firstly.. can I fit in it..properly? Otherwise all bets are off.
Then
How does it drive?
Is it so ugly I couldn't possibly ever live with it?
How does it drive?
Can I afford it?
How does it drive?
Depreciation ( but only up to a point, and haven't fell out of bed with anything yet)
How does it drive?
Am I excited by it?
How does it drive?

Badge: not interested at all. ( My car history will tell you that!)
Build: not too fussed. ( My TVR history will tell you that, although the Tuscan did make me snap eventually).

Edited by sjc on Thursday 25th August 13:16

But you've ever bought a Caterham??

I can only fit in a lowered floor SV, and it wouldn't get used enough. Friends on here will vouch how many times I've looked and come close .

[sjc]

Boshly said:

sjc said:

Boshly...
A naysayer is just someone who has a constant negative stance or doubts on something.To have those thoughts on something never seen or experience of is naysaying. It's not an insult.
Not sure you had the time to scroll through but the only person who has been called a troll (and fanboy !)is me,by someone who's opinion is apparently always the truth.And you can't have it both ways, by saying you find it difficult to read all the wonderful things by those who haven't bought one ( but have at least knowledge and experience of it) while defending those who slag it when they haven't even seen one ( or probably heard of it until this thread).Anyway, we're going round in circles with that !! If it was anywhere near as bad as some on here who haven't seen it claim,they wouldn't have sold one.. What's happened is, they've not had a owner re-sell. Massively high net worth people who wouldn't put up with a crap/rubbish/kit car product.
As I've said previously,it's not for everyone ( and I was shocked when it first came out over a number of things ( I was on the list for the m14/15, and was gutted when the price when from 75k to 100k to 150 k and then through the stratosphere into the m600 )and my posts from years back on the Noble forum will show I was highly sceptical at the time,but I get it now,it's a completely new car to those, it's a great car (in my opinion ), and it makes much more sense to me now than at launch.
This isn't a mythical speed12. Trident iceni, Farboud, Arash Mk73,or one of Lee Nobles various other projects that haven't got off the ground. It's a real product, doing ok against the established names, and I'm just glad it exists.
Would I buy one ? If my total car budget was circa 300k then maybe not, as the deprecation is too much of an unknown unless I could be convinced otherwise, and a year old 650S would pop out at me with plenty of change.
If I was rich enough to have a bigger budget and a couple of other Supercars ( the demographic SVR suggest is their target market) then I absolutely would.

Edited by sjc on Thursday 25th August 08:36

I've no idea what the actual definition of a naysayer is but I'm sure it's derogatory.

I've also not "defended" anyone in general though I did ask one poster to clarify his post. I do though think you're wrong 'picking on' anyone who dares criticize a car you obviously think highly of. Thus my comment that I find it hard to see etc.

Moving on to the general gist of your post and favourable comments in general; these seem to be based on a lot of assumptions that nobody has managed to verify yet. You keep stating that no owner has ever sold their car - where is the proof or where has this come from? I would state that even if it were true it could be for reasons that are not necessarily positive.

Lastly I reiterate how many have been sold and why aren't there more sold. For some grounding McLaren Sold 375 (I think - and could have sold more) P1's at 3 times the price of an M600 at at time when the McLaren resurgence hadn't really taken place. They sold for a reason and it wasn't profit as at that time McLarens were depreciating considerably though I'm sure there were a few speculators.

So please, no more 'facts' without substance and general comments about only being bought by high net worth individuals just let us know how many have been sold, where they are and why haven't more been sold.

The fact remains it's obviously a great car to drive. If you can overlook or like its design/background/price/interior etc and can afford £300k you may well buy one and be happy. I just dont see many people who have done so and the reason others haven't is NOT because they're ignorant.

ETA I see the how many has now been 'answered' and its 20 at the most.

Edited by Boshly on Thursday 25th August 19:32

Boshly, you keep putting words in my mouth and previously read something in a post that wasn't there. I haven't criticised anyone, yet I've been called a troll and fanboy for liking a car and yet the biggest trolling post by far is StutttgartMetals.I don't work for the fking company, but I've been up close and personal with the car and have been impressed, as has every single road test around the world. As for selling cars, Mclaren were discounting at a shameful
rate not so long ago, and a friend of mine got treated appallingly having owned two brand new ones.Would I go on the Mclaren forum slagging them? No I wouldn't.
The comment of never having a M600 come on the second hand market came from
Noble not me , so I suggest you take that as fact, or call them out as a bunch of fkjng liars.
Either way I'm out the thread.

[PGNSagaris]

sjc said:

Equus said:

sjc said:

Going by the sort of high end stuff they sell, do you honestly think they would be involved in selling anything that was a true refection of that pic?

The answer would appear to be yes (picture from their website):

So from that, you can tell the quality of the materials and stitching, whether the carbon is fake or not, the feel of the switchgear?
I will assume, that this is yet another post from someone who has never seen one or sat in one?
They wouldn't,I assure you.

I've sat in them a few times. At Brands a while ago and again at Excel. Also, recently saw one on the SVR stand at the Batersea show. Interior still looked hugely unresolved and clunky. A real shame.

[PGNSagaris]

New interior for the spider seems a lot better though.

[Boshly]

sjc said:

Boshly, you keep putting words in my mouth and previously read something in a post that wasn't there. I haven't criticised anyone, yet I've been called a troll and fanboy for liking a car and yet the biggest trolling post by far is StutttgartMetals.I don't work for the fking company, but I've been up close and personal with the car and have been impressed, as has every single road test around the world. As for selling cars, Mclaren were discounting at a shameful
rate not so long ago, and a friend of mine got treated appallingly having owned two brand new ones.Would I go on the Mclaren forum slagging them? No I wouldn't.
The comment of never having a M600 come on the second hand market came from
Noble not me , so I suggest you take that as fact, or call them out as a bunch of fkjng liars.
Either way I'm out the thread.

I'm sorry you're upset, I thought this was a discussion board?

You may have taken the brunt of my slight disdain on your shoulders as you're the only one continually responding but you aren't as innocent as maybe you feel you are. You said, and I quote

"Yet another M600 thread with so much ignorance it's frightening.

....

And other than the ignorant bias generally, this is a quick take of what they have to put up with...."

Surely you accept that's criticism? I know you're not being incredibly rude or out of order or abusive but in a discussion about a car to generalize like that about people who don't agree with your opinion is unnecessary.

As regards the facts aspect had you said Noble told you that no owner has ever sold their car I would have directed my cynicism at them; but you didn't. You simply stated it as fact with no substantiation thus me asking for facts rather than conjecture.

Your friends treatment by the McLaren dealer/factory sounds unpleasant and unnecessary and to be honest if you read a forum thread extolling how wonderful Mclaren dealer/factory is I would expect you to post your friends story. Opposing views are what keeps things real and interesting. A thread of everyone being ultra nice and agreeing with each other is boring and of no use whatsoever to man nor beast.

As I said I am genuinely sorry that you appear upset. I am labouring a point or two and you are the recipient as you are engaging me, but only because some people don't seem to be taking on board the simple principle:

Corporate company only sells a handful of a product when they really would like to sell more (and their competitors do) - conclusion: there is something not quite right.

Now if you'd posted something like "I've been up close and personal with the M600 and love it, by all accounts it also appears to be an incredible drive. If only they could address what it is that seems to stop people buying it what an amazing British Sports car story that would be" I wouldn't have a leg to stand on would I

[stuttgartmetal]

sjc said:

Boshly, you keep putting words in my mouth and previously read something in a post that wasn't there. I haven't criticised anyone, yet I've been called a troll and fanboy for liking a car and yet the biggest trolling post by far is StutttgartMetals.I

Don't confuse trolling, which is a wind up mechanism with an understanding and opinion on the many dimensions relevant to spending a huge amount on a car.
Investment, being one.
Resale value, solidity of the manufacturer, company history, and widespread appeal.
Technology, innovation, forward development, investment in engineering, and expertise backed by a massive financial base.
None of these seem relevant ?
The first thing I'd be asking if I were to build an M600 is, is there a need, a market for what we can build.
Is it financially viable.
Looking at the completion, Theen the answer is no, not at £300k

[Equus]

stuttgartmetal said:

The first thing I'd be asking if I were to build an M600 is, is there a need, a market for what we can build.
Is it financially viable.
Looking at the completion, then the answer is no, not at £300k

I think that this is the root of their problem: they've got into a vicious circle between amortising development costs and demand.

The quality/level of design, detailing and technology demanded by those relative handful of people in the market for a £200-£300K car - and being conscious of the quality and image of the opposition (no point in pretending that image isn't a main driver, at this esoteric end of the market) - would require much greater investment to pull it off. They'll never sell sufficient cars (without the prestige of Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren) to amortise such an investment.

What Noble is trying to do is to sell what should be £100K car (both in terms of its quality and the prestige sustainable as a step forward from the good start they made establishing themselves with the M12/M400), amortised over tiny production volumes.

It's not going to work: if you're bright enough to have accumulated/hung-on-to sufficient cash to be able to afford one, you're (mostly) going to be bright enough to see through such a deeply flawed business strategy and recognise that the quality and prestige of the product isn't good enough to justify its price.

[babatunde]

Equus said:

will_ said:

sjc said:

It's a real product, genuinely doing ok against the established names...

A quick check on the DVLA data suggests that 3 or 4 (one as a 'Noble M600', three listed as just 'Noble Automotive') have been registered in the UK, and all remain registered.


That's the sum total of 4 years' UK production, it would seem: possibly one actual sale?

You have to have owners, before you can have owners who re-sell.
.

And that's the sum total of this debate, 1 car sold,

we all like cars, that's why we are on Pistonheads, but many of us have seen the car equivalent of vapourware many many times, the M600 by all indications falls firmly in that category

[will_]

Equus said:

A quick check on the DVLA data suggests that 3 or 4 (one as a 'Noble M600', three listed as just 'Noble Automotive') have been registered in the UK, and all remain registered.

At least three of these cars (the bronze coupe pictured at the top of this thread, the orange car also pictured at the top of this thread and currently for sale by SVR, and the Speedster development car pictured by Ruttboy on page 8) would appear to remain in Noble's/SVR's control or ownership.

That's the sum total of 4 years' UK production, it would seem: possibly one actual sale?

So...

I can think of at least 5:
Dark blue with a numberplate starting "F1" - that has been doing the rounds for years
Orange demo with SVR
Dark red carbon bodied car with SVR (at Goodwood and the London motor show)
Red LHD car
Bronze Speedster

I think Noble/SVR recently sold a car to Germany. Might have been one of the above.

Google images provides a few more (pale blue car for instance) but it's difficult to know whether they are older cars that have been repainted. The numberplate is the same as that used on the orange demo.

In any event, it can't be many.

[ruttboy]

Hi Chaps,

Thanks again for the comments, both positive and negative.

Firstly, some clarifications.

There have been many more M600s built and sold than are being discussed on here, and yes, some have been exported.
Don't get me wrong, it's not the levels of our competitors, but the factory would not be here if it had only sold 4 cars......

All M600s sold ARE still owned by their original owners, and used regularly.

In terms of driving experience, the car is on performance terms with anything currently produced by Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini, it just depends what you are looking for in your driving experience.
Personally, I think McLaren have hit the nail on the head, the 488 is stunning, the latest 911R a legend, and the Huracan is just superb. I have experienced them all but this does not stop me understanding the M600's place and our customers, whom, as you can imagine, all have access to these cars as well, love the M600 for the experience IT delivers.

It's not better, it's not worse, it just delivers an analogue experience that the others cannot, but I don't blame anyone for buying one of our competitors, I can't when we have so many other supercars downstairs for sale.

Romans have never been an official Dealer for Noble, Noble have never had one for the M600 until SVR, and we are proud to be part of the Noble Family.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is a lot more to come from this Great British company, the appointment of SVR and the media push we are doing is only the start.

And lastly, I am not going to comment on the pictures posted of the previous Noble at the alleged price point on £79k.............

Cheers,

Alan.

[Equus]

will_ said:

I can think of at least 5:
Dark blue with a numberplate starting "F1" - that has been doing the rounds for years
Orange demo with SVR
Dark red carbon bodied car with SVR (at Goodwood and the London motor show)
Red LHD car
Bronze Speedster

I think Noble/SVR recently sold a car to Germany. Might have been one of the above.

Google images provides a few more (pale blue car for instance) but it's difficult to know whether they are older cars that have been repainted. The numberplate is the same as that used on the orange demo.

In any event, it can't be many.

The DVLA only lists UK registered cars, of course (which is why my post referred to UK production).

It's a fair assumption that the 'red LHD car', being LHD, went abroad, and I'm sure that there will have been a handful of others - particularly to the Arab states, where some collectors have enough cash that they will buy whatever supercar is put on the market, simply for completeness of their collections.

Whatever the numbers, though, as you say, it's clear that they are not large, even compared to other ultra-specialists like Pagani, Bugatti and Koenigsegg.

[will_]

ruttboy said:

There have been many more M600s built and sold than are being discussed on here, and yes, some have been exported.
Don't get me wrong, it's not the levels of our competitors, but the factory would not be here if it had only sold 4 cars......

Why won't you or Noble answer the question as to precisely how many M600s have been sold?

In my view repeatedly avoiding that question is worse than answering it, regardless of how low the actual number is.

ruttboy said:

Romans have never been an official Dealer for Noble, Noble have never had one for the M600 until SVR, and we are proud to be part of the Noble Family.

Are you sure?

From Romans' (cached) website:
"Romans are official dealers for Noble Automotive specializing in the Noble M600 supercar for sale"

[bernhund]

I've chosen to retract my contribution to this debate as I believe it was unfair. Though the pictures are online and available to anyone who searches.
The reason I think it was unfair is simply because I don't know about the politics that went on at Noble and Lee's removal from the company. It's quite possible that the M14 was never going to make it onto the market at £79k, however I can't imagine it would have been three times the price.

[Hitch]

The new carbon one on the SVR website looks nice, if a little aged in design. I assume that these sell to those who have a collection of very fast cars and have already ticked some of the boxes some people on here seem to be focussed on?

That said, if all of the money is in the 'analogue driving experience' then it would have to be other worldly to sell more than a handful at that price. You're talking about a thin seam of very wealthy people who are very enthusiastic about driving rather than owning.

[Mezzanine]

will_ said:

ruttboy said:

There have been many more M600s built and sold than are being discussed on here, and yes, some have been exported.
Don't get me wrong, it's not the levels of our competitors, but the factory would not be here if it had only sold 4 cars......

Why won't you or Noble answer the question as to precisely how many M600s have been sold?

In my view repeatedly avoiding that question is worse than answering it, regardless of how low the actual number is.

It's analogue and has no driver aids, just like an F40.

It's just like an F40, remember.

And no one will ever resell theirs because it is so driver focussed and just like an F40.

Is that mirror shop over there full of smoke?!

will_ said:

ruttboy said:

Romans have never been an official Dealer for Noble, Noble have never had one for the M600 until SVR, and we are proud to be part of the Noble Family.

Are you sure?

From Romans' (cached) website:
"Romans are official dealers for Noble Automotive specializing in the Noble M600 supercar for sale"

I seem to remember Romans having an advert in the press when the M600 was first released too, there were two official U.K dealers IIRC.

Maybe Ruttboy means the 'new' M600

Equus said:

What Noble is trying to do is to sell what should be £100K car (both in terms of its quality and the prestige sustainable as a step forward from the good start they made establishing themselves with the M12/M400), amortised over tiny production volumes.

It's not going to work: if you're bright enough to have accumulated/hung-on-to sufficient cash to be able to afford one, you're (mostly) going to be bright enough to see through such a deeply flawed business strategy and recognise that the quality and prestige of the product isn't good enough to justify its price.

Absolutely this.

[will_]

will_ said:

ruttboy said:

There have been many more M600s built and sold than are being discussed on here, and yes, some have been exported.
Don't get me wrong, it's not the levels of our competitors, but the factory would not be here if it had only sold 4 cars......

Why won't you or Noble answer the question as to precisely how many M600s have been sold?

In my view repeatedly avoiding that question is worse than answering it, regardless of how low the actual number is.

ruttboy said:

Romans have never been an official Dealer for Noble, Noble have never had one for the M600 until SVR, and we are proud to be part of the Noble Family.

Are you sure?

From Romans' (cached) website:
"Romans are official dealers for Noble Automotive specializing in the Noble M600 supercar for sale"

[Fire99]

I'm torn with the M600. I think most 'petrol-heads' want to see a low volume UK made Supercar manufacturer to succeed. The supercar world needs variety and involving ones at that.

However, I think the M600 is a tough sell. I agree with those that say the styling looks dated but more importantly when people have to try and explain why it's so expensive, the car ends up on the back foot. Not to mention that Noble is remembered as a Turbocharged, more precision focused, TVR competitor and when you hear Noble you kinda expect to hear a price tag of sub £100k.

The ownership / driving experience of the Noble may be amazing but (in my opinion of course) it has a huge task in attempting to get people to that position (owning one)

[Civpilot]

Equus said:

I think that this is the root of their problem: they've got into a vicious circle between amortising development costs and demand.

The quality/level of design, detailing and technology demanded by those relative handful of people in the market for a £200-£300K car - and being conscious of the quality and image of the opposition (no point in pretending that image isn't a main driver, at this esoteric end of the market) - would require much greater investment to pull it off. They'll never sell sufficient cars (without the prestige of Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren) to amortise such an investment.

What Noble is trying to do is to sell what should be £100K car (both in terms of its quality and the prestige sustainable as a step forward from the good start they made establishing themselves with the M12/M400), amortised over tiny production volumes.

It's not going to work: if you're bright enough to have accumulated/hung-on-to sufficient cash to be able to afford one, you're (mostly) going to be bright enough to see through such a deeply flawed business strategy and recognise that the quality and prestige of the product isn't good enough to justify its price.

Totally this.

I don't think a single person in this thread has questioned the cars ability? It's clearly a beast of a thing.

The previous Nobles, whilst being great cars, were very much (to the eyes of some) very 'kit car' looking. Sorry, I love the M12 but I cannot un-see the standard Mondeo rear lights and Ford switchgear. The M400 was also an utterly fantastic car no doubt, but visually it was only slightly different (I know folk who can't tell them apart at a glance) Everyone was more than happy to let is slide though as the car was sensibly priced for the performance and was a genuine giant killer when it was on sale.
So the next car Noble produced could have happily jumped in at a price point slightly higher to remain competitive as a viable alternative to the Porsche 911.... In fact that was the plan with the stunning M15. Massive performance jump, £80k starting price. Nobody got upset about that, it was a great story, great looking car and by all accounts went as good as it looked. Then it went away... and reappeared slightly redesigned as the M600... priced at almost £300k (Yes, I know Noble seem to want to sweep the existence of the M15 under the carpet but the fact it is happened, it's out there, there is a Wikipedia page, folk saw it on Top Gear and heard all the marketing speak, it is inescapable what the original plan was with this car)

The M600 may be amazing to drive... but if there is not a massive waiting list then something is obviously very wrong. Personally I think it is the belief by Noble that they can waltz into the £300k market as a new 'name' and just sell. As much as I love them, I just don't think the Noble name is strong enough, especially as people will unavoidably compare the new car to the old car's in their portfolio... and they compare the price points.

ps. I would love this car to do as well as it's promoters want it too, but in the time it has been on sale it's (in the grand scheme of things) done nothing and to be completely honest I was surprised when I saw the story on here. I had already assumed they were out of business due to lack of sales.... that's not a good PR place to be in

[Fire99]

Civpilot said:

Totally this.

I don't think a single person in this thread has questioned the cars ability? It's clearly a beast of a thing.

The previous Nobles, whilst being great cars, were very much (to the eyes of some) very 'kit car' looking. Sorry, I love the M12 but I cannot un-see the standard Mondeo rear lights and Ford switchgear. The M400 was also an utterly fantastic car no doubt, but visually it was only slightly different (I know folk who can't tell them apart at a glance) Everyone was more than happy to let is slide though as the car was sensibly priced for the performance and was a genuine giant killer when it was on sale.
So the next car Noble produced could have happily jumped in at a price point slightly higher to remain competitive as a viable alternative to the Porsche 911.... In fact that was the plan with the stunning M15. Massive performance jump, £80k starting price. Nobody got upset about that, it was a great story, great looking car and by all accounts went as good as it looked. Then it went away... and reappeared slightly redesigned as the M600... priced at almost £300k (Yes, I know Noble seem to want to sweep the existence of the M15 under the carpet but the fact it is happened, it's out there, there is a Wikipedia page, folk saw it on Top Gear and heard all the marketing speak, it is inescapable what the original plan was with this car)

The M600 may be amazing to drive... but if there is not a massive waiting list then something is obviously very wrong. Personally I think it is the belief by Noble that they can waltz into the £300k market as a new 'name' and just sell. As much as I love them, I just don't think the Noble name is strong enough, especially as people will unavoidably compare the new car to the old car's in their portfolio... and they compare the price points.

ps. I would love this car to do as well as it's promoters want it too, but in the time it has been on sale it's (in the grand scheme of things) done nothing and to be completely honest I was surprised when I saw the story on here. I had already assumed they were out of business due to lack of sales.... that's not a good PR place to be in

Good points well made.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Civpilot said:

I love the M12 but I cannot un-see the standard Mondeo rear lights and Ford switchgear.

Do you not understand the huge cost of trying to tool up for bespoke trim parts? And yet you say you want a hand-built car for £80k - so you've already defined the car out of existence.

Civpilot said:

As much as I love them, I just don't think the Noble name is strong enough,

Car buying decisions based on the name? Personally I don't care who makes a care so long as it's "right".

Civpilot said:

to be completely honest I was surprised when I saw the story on here. I had already assumed they were out of business due to lack of sales.... that's not a good PR place to be in

Understood. However, as with Lotus Evora I think the problems are with the fundamental concept and styling of the car rather than branding or trim details.

Heaven only knows what new-TVR will pull out of the bag but it will have to avoid these mistakes while going head-to-head with some of the world's most successful sportscars. That's a tough call.