What's the closest car to a modern Peugeot 205 GTi?
Discussion
white_goodman said:
How does the EP3 Civic Type-R compare?
I replaced a 306 XSI with one, and I'd previously (briefly) owned a 309 GTi.Steering a bit numb (a lot numb compared to the Peugeots). Handling not dissimilar - pointy front end, quite throttle sensitive, no stability control. Very enjoyable if you're used to that, but quite a lot of them ended up backwards in hedges. Quite raw in terms of refinement, lots of road and engine noise, but smooth, very revvy engine. Worse ride quality than the Peugeots, which I suspect would have rattled to pieces if they'd been as firm. Great gearbox. Hot hatches used to split between those pretending to be a sports car and those pretending to be a fast, plush saloon. Civic was definitely the former - contact points good, nice seats, wheel, gear lever, everything else pretty utilitarian, not much equipment.
Apart from the numbness of the steering (which you get used to), it was pretty much what I think a hot hatch should be.
routari said:
There's a well known roadster with an excellent chassis that you can balance and turn mid-corner with its very sensitive throttle. It also has famously great wheel feedback, and inspires huge confidence through the corners.
It has about the same power-to-weight, but with rear drive, an LSD and superior weight distribution and suspension configuration. It almost feels like trolling or a tired meme to suggest it, but after checking some dedicated 205 GTI forums in the UK and AUS, the people that own both on there seem to compare them very favourably to each other, with the 205 being more raw, and the roadster being more precise.
My own car is always a step into the unknown somewhat, with me inching up to the limit. In my experience driving a very lightly fettled roadster of the type I'm describing, it's so easy to find the limit, and although it's a slower car, I probably took some corners faster, just with how much feedback there was, and how much confidence the car gives you.
They're not for everyone, and also less practical than a 205 GTI, but you already know what car is being described, and the things you highlighted in the OP didn't mention practicality.
Sorry.
I'm not exactly sure. Are you talking Elise, MX5, MR2 or Caterham 7?It has about the same power-to-weight, but with rear drive, an LSD and superior weight distribution and suspension configuration. It almost feels like trolling or a tired meme to suggest it, but after checking some dedicated 205 GTI forums in the UK and AUS, the people that own both on there seem to compare them very favourably to each other, with the 205 being more raw, and the roadster being more precise.
My own car is always a step into the unknown somewhat, with me inching up to the limit. In my experience driving a very lightly fettled roadster of the type I'm describing, it's so easy to find the limit, and although it's a slower car, I probably took some corners faster, just with how much feedback there was, and how much confidence the car gives you.
They're not for everyone, and also less practical than a 205 GTI, but you already know what car is being described, and the things you highlighted in the OP didn't mention practicality.
Sorry.
OK, thanks for all the replies. I'm surprised it took so long to mention the Fiesta ST and for sure, when it came out, I thought that yes, I would really enjoy that car but alas the price of entry seems to be around 10,000 pounds plus and my budget is considerably less. I would also love another 205 but not to use every day.
So, it has to look modern outside and in and be easy to live with but still offer some of the old school thrills of the 205. The Clio 172/182 by all accounts is perhaps the closest thing and I liked them when new but they're looking pretty dated now and nice ones are relatively expensive for what they are. So I think the ones I would like to try are:
RenaultSport Twingo (these seem really good value)
mk1 Suzuki Swift Sport (I test drove a 1.3 version when we got our 500 and I really liked it, it felt a bit like a non-retro MINI)
Supercharged MCS (possibly a convertible, as I have a soft spot for them)
Lupo GTi (I tried a Polo GTi and was unimpressed but I hear that the Lupo is better)
Any thoughts on these two? The Abarth Punto is pretty rare but possibly a better chassis than the 500 and the old-shape Fiesta ST150 was always criticised for its engine but by all accounts had a great chassis and still looks sharp.
So, it has to look modern outside and in and be easy to live with but still offer some of the old school thrills of the 205. The Clio 172/182 by all accounts is perhaps the closest thing and I liked them when new but they're looking pretty dated now and nice ones are relatively expensive for what they are. So I think the ones I would like to try are:
RenaultSport Twingo (these seem really good value)
mk1 Suzuki Swift Sport (I test drove a 1.3 version when we got our 500 and I really liked it, it felt a bit like a non-retro MINI)
Supercharged MCS (possibly a convertible, as I have a soft spot for them)
Lupo GTi (I tried a Polo GTi and was unimpressed but I hear that the Lupo is better)
Any thoughts on these two? The Abarth Punto is pretty rare but possibly a better chassis than the 500 and the old-shape Fiesta ST150 was always criticised for its engine but by all accounts had a great chassis and still looks sharp.
I've been looking for a more modern replacement for my 205 gti and not found one yet.
Clio 172/182: flimsy enough electrically but not as comfy to sit in.
Fiesta ST (the 2005-ish shape): great chassis, engine doesn't rev freely enough
Mini: too big
Panda 100hp: very good suspension too stiff though
Suzuki Ignis: gearbox ratios feel all wrong.
Nothing compares yet with the feel of the 205. One unassisted wheel, 3 pedals. That lovely exhaust note when idling at cold, and when being revved out when warm. The adjustability on the throttle. The scarily rapid adjustability on damp roads. The very comfy seats. The fact the whole thing feels more alive than a machine.
Clio 172/182: flimsy enough electrically but not as comfy to sit in.
Fiesta ST (the 2005-ish shape): great chassis, engine doesn't rev freely enough
Mini: too big
Panda 100hp: very good suspension too stiff though
Suzuki Ignis: gearbox ratios feel all wrong.
Nothing compares yet with the feel of the 205. One unassisted wheel, 3 pedals. That lovely exhaust note when idling at cold, and when being revved out when warm. The adjustability on the throttle. The scarily rapid adjustability on damp roads. The very comfy seats. The fact the whole thing feels more alive than a machine.
swerni said:
750turbo said:
MINI
I had one as a loan car a few months back, immediately reminded me of the 205.
(Buggered if I remember what model it was, sorry, but it was a current model).
Snap.I had one as a loan car a few months back, immediately reminded me of the 205.
(Buggered if I remember what model it was, sorry, but it was a current model).
I had a nearly new 1.9 back in the day. Very similar experience to driving my wife's Cooper S
J4CKO said:
Would love to drive a Fiesta ST back to back with a 205 1.9, I cant imagine many would say the 205 is the better driving car of the two really.
I test drove a Fiesta ST almost 2 years ago and I drove to the dealership and back in my 1.6 GTi. I didn't buy the ST and I didn't actually rate it that much. It was okay but i'd read so many reviews saying how wonderful it was and how "old school" hatch it felt and obviously jumping from one to the other it just didn't at all. Expectations were just built up too much I suspect, in isolation its probably pretty good and it does feel small and lively compared to most modern cars. However, it felt like a big, chunky, padded modern numb thing compared to my 205.Glad it's not just me! I had a 309 SRi (basically a 1.6 205 GTi in the 309 body) back in ~1995 and I still crave that same feeling in a car. Other than my 400kg bike engined kit car I've never owned anything that gets remotely near to how the 309 communicated allowing you to push to its limits and know exactly what was going on through feel and feedback. On some familiar stretches of road you could almost do a running commentary inside your head knowing exactly what it would do the split second it did it, little kick of the steering wheel here, little lift and slight loss of traction there etc etc.
The one car I've driven recently that does gives me small glimpses of the same is my wife's year old Leon FR estate. Its got a really light and reasonably swift (150bhp, sub 8s 0-60) 1.4 petrol engine, steering with at least some feel and feedback, a nice manual gearbox and suspension on standard 17" wheels that's quite similar to the 309 in that it's fairly compliant but never feels like its rolling excessively or losing body control so you can feel what the car is doing when being pushed. A few times when I've got my sensible hat on I've been half tempted to chop in my 2012 Audi S4 and get myself one as well, as despite the big loss in performance and despite the fact the S4 with the sport diff is extremely competent and good fun in the corners when there's a clear enough road to stetch it's legs, I still think I'd have more fun more of the time in something slower and objectively less competent on the 20 mile rural A road commute.
The one car I've driven recently that does gives me small glimpses of the same is my wife's year old Leon FR estate. Its got a really light and reasonably swift (150bhp, sub 8s 0-60) 1.4 petrol engine, steering with at least some feel and feedback, a nice manual gearbox and suspension on standard 17" wheels that's quite similar to the 309 in that it's fairly compliant but never feels like its rolling excessively or losing body control so you can feel what the car is doing when being pushed. A few times when I've got my sensible hat on I've been half tempted to chop in my 2012 Audi S4 and get myself one as well, as despite the big loss in performance and despite the fact the S4 with the sport diff is extremely competent and good fun in the corners when there's a clear enough road to stetch it's legs, I still think I'd have more fun more of the time in something slower and objectively less competent on the 20 mile rural A road commute.
white_goodman said:
OK, thanks for all the replies.
So I think the ones I would like to try are:
RenaultSport Twingo (these seem really good value)
I had a 205 GTi 1.6 to replace my Alfa Sprint Veloce in 86. In 88 I bought a 1.9. The 1.6 was fun and the 1.9 was like a 1.6 'turned up to 11' Then family/company cars for 25 years. Bought an RX8 231 in 2010 and having a car where its all between 6500 to 9000 revs is very involving. So I think the ones I would like to try are:
RenaultSport Twingo (these seem really good value)
Back on point, have you tried the Twingo? I have and I bought one a couple of weeks back for two key (t)reasons. The way it felt was so like the 205 GTi 1.6 (not the 1.9 though) and the fact that the boot with the sliding individual rear seats still upright can hold a full size golf trolley bag, clubs, trolley, wheels, battery, shoes, etc. simply has to be seen to be believed.
OK, It doesn't really start moving unless the revs are above 4500 but that's the attraction. If I want brute torque I take my Q5 3.0 Tdi mapped to 300 Bhp and 600 NM.
The lift off over-steer is so accessible as there's very little under-steer if you set the gear and entry right. Leaving the local Tesco roundabout at 45 degrees in the pouring rain probably wasn't the most responsible thing to do the third time I encountered it. The point is it was controllable as it was entirely predictable.
The Cup chassis (purple dots on the rear springs, stickers on the dampers) and 205/40 17 tyres on Cup alloys, will have an effect over standard and provide very level cornering.
I got mine at 81K on a 2009 plate for £2600. That's half what I paid for my 205 in 1986!
king riot. NDNDNDND said:
The cynic in me wants to say that type of car is dead. Much like the small RWD hatchback.
If you mention you prefer unassisted steering, or complain about DWB throttle lag, most people in here laugh and think you're pretentious and making it up.
Modern 'sports' hatchbacks are biased towards big, pub-braggart numbers, bluetooth, air-con and gadgets, as that sells cars. Cars without electronic nannies, or with limits low enough to actually reach on the road are 'dangerous', and a car without power steering is 'impossible' to drive. 'Hyped' throttle response, faked sounds, over-servoed brakes, hyperactive, super-light variable racks and bore-fest DSG boxes are all the marketing-led crap getting stuck onto cars to appeal to the ignorant, lowest-common-denominator PCP 'purchaser' who wants a superficially 'fun', zero-effort car and doesn't really have a clue...
The kind of sensations you describe are now the preserve of speciality cars, like the Elise, Caterham or perhaps kit cars. This kind of connection is increasingly ironed out of modern, mainstream cars and will be harder and harder to find.
Buy something from the 90's or earlier.
It's 6 o' clock. That's not too early to start drinking is it?
I admit it, I dislike my M135i, which you've very accurately described. I drove a 25th Anniversary MX5 the other day for 5 minutes and it was everything that the M135i isn't. I liked it a lot! Thus, my answer to the OP is MX5 (yes, I accept that it's not got 4 seats or a hatchback, but no hatch made today is as involving as the older cars). If you mention you prefer unassisted steering, or complain about DWB throttle lag, most people in here laugh and think you're pretentious and making it up.
Modern 'sports' hatchbacks are biased towards big, pub-braggart numbers, bluetooth, air-con and gadgets, as that sells cars. Cars without electronic nannies, or with limits low enough to actually reach on the road are 'dangerous', and a car without power steering is 'impossible' to drive. 'Hyped' throttle response, faked sounds, over-servoed brakes, hyperactive, super-light variable racks and bore-fest DSG boxes are all the marketing-led crap getting stuck onto cars to appeal to the ignorant, lowest-common-denominator PCP 'purchaser' who wants a superficially 'fun', zero-effort car and doesn't really have a clue...
The kind of sensations you describe are now the preserve of speciality cars, like the Elise, Caterham or perhaps kit cars. This kind of connection is increasingly ironed out of modern, mainstream cars and will be harder and harder to find.
Buy something from the 90's or earlier.
It's 6 o' clock. That's not too early to start drinking is it?
The worst part of the newer cars is that it's very hard to modify them to rid them of the fluffy electronic nannies. I used to love getting into a car and not having to press buttons to decide how I wanted a car to drive/handle before the journey began, then reset it every time I used the cruise control. It used to be get in, drive, enjoy.
Allroader said:
I had a 205 GTi 1.6 to replace my Alfa Sprint Veloce in 86. In 88 I bought a 1.9. The 1.6 was fun and the 1.9 was like a 1.6 'turned up to 11' Then family/company cars for 25 years. Bought an RX8 231 in 2010 and having a car where its all between 6500 to 9000 revs is very involving.
Back on point, have you tried the Twingo? I have and I bought one a couple of weeks back for two key (t)reasons. The way it felt was so like the 205 GTi 1.6 (not the 1.9 though) and the fact that the boot with the sliding individual rear seats still upright can hold a full size golf trolley bag, clubs, trolley, wheels, battery, shoes, etc. simply has to be seen to be believed.
OK, It doesn't really start moving unless the revs are above 4500 but that's the attraction. If I want brute torque I take my Q5 3.0 Tdi mapped to 300 Bhp and 600 NM.
The lift off over-steer is so accessible as there's very little under-steer if you set the gear and entry right. Leaving the local Tesco roundabout at 45 degrees in the pouring rain probably wasn't the most responsible thing to do the third time I encountered it. The point is it was controllable as it was entirely predictable.
The Cup chassis (purple dots on the rear springs, stickers on the dampers) and 205/40 17 tyres on Cup alloys, will have an effect over standard and provide very level cornering.
I got mine at 81K on a 2009 plate for £2600. That's half what I paid for my 205 in 1986!
I got my 09 Twingo GT (100bhp 1.2 TCe engine) for £2k and am now seriously regretting not spending the bit extra and going for the 133. The GT is fun enough but the gearchange is a bit light for my liking. It has the old school hot hatch trait of feeling much more rapid than it is, which is nice.Back on point, have you tried the Twingo? I have and I bought one a couple of weeks back for two key (t)reasons. The way it felt was so like the 205 GTi 1.6 (not the 1.9 though) and the fact that the boot with the sliding individual rear seats still upright can hold a full size golf trolley bag, clubs, trolley, wheels, battery, shoes, etc. simply has to be seen to be believed.
OK, It doesn't really start moving unless the revs are above 4500 but that's the attraction. If I want brute torque I take my Q5 3.0 Tdi mapped to 300 Bhp and 600 NM.
The lift off over-steer is so accessible as there's very little under-steer if you set the gear and entry right. Leaving the local Tesco roundabout at 45 degrees in the pouring rain probably wasn't the most responsible thing to do the third time I encountered it. The point is it was controllable as it was entirely predictable.
The Cup chassis (purple dots on the rear springs, stickers on the dampers) and 205/40 17 tyres on Cup alloys, will have an effect over standard and provide very level cornering.
I got mine at 81K on a 2009 plate for £2600. That's half what I paid for my 205 in 1986!
GeordieInExile said:
I got my 09 Twingo GT (100bhp 1.2 TCe engine) for £2k and am now seriously regretting not spending the bit extra and going for the 133. The GT is fun enough but the gearchange is a bit light for my liking. It has the old school hot hatch trait of feeling much more rapid than it is, which is nice.
I was honed in on the 133 from the start. K-Tec round the corner from me had one with their kit that takes it to 160+ bhp. But at double my budget I didn't torment myself with a test drive.
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