RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer
Discussion
bobo79 said:
As a self confessed Lotus lover I would assume it would be a simple question.
You are a really, really, really boring troll. Go to bed.
self confessed lotus lover? where did you get that from? do you understand Irony or sarcasm troll? but when it really comes down to it troll, i think the best thing about the evora is the engine and the engine note, which happens to be japanese, the rest of the british stuff is subpar (in my opinion). so in the end troll, the only saving grace for the land where the sun never set was from the land of the rising sun.You are a really, really, really boring troll. Go to bed.
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Saturday 20th August 02:43
not I to yours.Very sad thread, very sad article.
Interesting to read the opinions on both Lotus and Porsche outside of the UK. It seems we don't cheer for the underdog these days, but try very hard to keep up with the Jones. Suddenly the brand is more important than the actual car you're buying. That seems a shame.
Interesting to read the opinions on both Lotus and Porsche outside of the UK. It seems we don't cheer for the underdog these days, but try very hard to keep up with the Jones. Suddenly the brand is more important than the actual car you're buying. That seems a shame.
dear Tuna, you are falling into the nationalism trap that chriss harris was banned by Lotus for describing, plz dont do that. It is always nice to cheer for the underdog i agree, but to cloud ones judgement based on patriotism for the mother nation would open a can of worms....if that is the case ask yourself why would you ever rely on the opinion of a british journalist for any british brand, or a german one for any german brand or a japanese for any japanese brand etc etc ? everyone will be cheering for his own country/brand and then we are all back in the 80's again. not a great time for cars...
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Saturday 20th August 05:33
ok impasse, ill stop saying banned, (although you can tweet and ask him youraelf) how about snubbed? he was snubbed by lotus , happy now?
ok guys all is right in the world, chriss harris was snubbed by lotus because he dared to discuss the nationalism trap in regards to the Evora.
there you go impasse, be happy.
will richard be snubbed as well? and if so on a scalr of 1-10 how angry would you be if that occurred?
ok guys all is right in the world, chriss harris was snubbed by lotus because he dared to discuss the nationalism trap in regards to the Evora.
there you go impasse, be happy.
will richard be snubbed as well? and if so on a scalr of 1-10 how angry would you be if that occurred?
ah...just not invited....i see i see, so you claim to know more than 1 of the 2 parties involved?
very interesting, very insightful.
i wasnt sensationalising anything, just recommending not falling into the patroitism trap as discussed by chris, for which you happened to want to split hairs of not banned not snubbed etc etc
very interesting, very insightful.
i wasnt sensationalising anything, just recommending not falling into the patroitism trap as discussed by chris, for which you happened to want to split hairs of not banned not snubbed etc etc
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Saturday 20th August 06:03
Lotuslover699 - there is a lot of banter on the TLF and maybe you took it the wrong way. The TLF is a very good place for information and I have found the folk very helpful. Of course some don't like people speaking ill of the brand but this is not a lotus specific issue. You clearly have an issue with some people and maybe lotus. You are not adding to the thread in any way now and seem to be going out of your way to be awkward. Never understand this immature behaviour.
Just read the article, not the 11 pages above, which I assume has descended into the usual mudslinging to get to that length.
But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
chrispj said:
Just read the article, not the 11 pages above, which I assume has descended into the usual mudslinging to get to that length.
But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
Chris, that's exactly my issue. I think the options are pretty expensive. But that only means that they will only appeal to a small group of customers. I'm not sure I've ever read such a sarcastic article. I suspect the author is trying to be witty, maybe he doesnt get many opportunities and felt he had to make it notworthy? unfortunately it isnt witty - not everyone is, and you cant force yourself to be if you're not - so instead it just comes across sarcy and a bit angry.But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
I have a bit of sympathy for the writer. I'm sure (well, I suspect) the tone isnt intended.
Hungrymc said:
chrispj said:
Just read the article, not the 11 pages above, which I assume has descended into the usual mudslinging to get to that length.
But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
Chris, that's exactly my issue. I think the options are pretty expensive. But that only means that they will only appeal to a small group of customers. I'm not sure I've ever read such a sarcastic article. I suspect the author is trying to be witty, maybe he doesnt get many opportunities and felt he had to make it notworthy? unfortunately it isnt witty - not everyone is, and you cant force yourself to be if you're not - so instead it just comes across sarcy and a bit angry.But, Jeez Pistonheads, could you be much more sarcastic and dismissive? Pretty poor tone IMO. Not impressed. Plus points that you managed to avoid the usual 5 Porsche comparisons in the 1st paragraph but the resulting style wasn't particularly pleasant or amusing, perhaps just a balanced stating of the facts would have been better. As my mother said, if you can't say something nice...
,
I have a bit of sympathy for the writer. I'm sure (well, I suspect) the tone isnt intended.
Followed by a typical PH forum response - never understand why Porsche guys always feel the need to wade in all guns blazing, it's a bit sad really.
The 400 is a fantastic car, these options are a bit pointless and very expensive but Lotus need to make money just like other manufacturers and overpriced options seem to do just that.
Lotuslover669 said:
I have had to go offtopic to respond to particular attacks or accusations from the lotus community as you can clearly see, but i am also true to my words i thought you were part of the pack here such as bob or havoc part of the troll crew from lotus, and for that i APOLOGIZE, cant get any clearer than that. you seem to give respect so i will return the respect. again in all honestly i believe i answered the points you raised in that massive post that i wrote, if there are any "holes" in what i wrote please raise them and i will respond in a timely manner.
But Mr.hungrymc as you can see, there is a positive to come out of this, a sort of a cup half full situation, by targeting me the Lotus trolls lost sight of attacking the writer or the article, and if that increased his journalistic freedom by 0.00001% I am happy for that.
now again if you have any questions you feel i havent answered please ask.
and thank you.
Ok, thank you for the reply.But Mr.hungrymc as you can see, there is a positive to come out of this, a sort of a cup half full situation, by targeting me the Lotus trolls lost sight of attacking the writer or the article, and if that increased his journalistic freedom by 0.00001% I am happy for that.
now again if you have any questions you feel i havent answered please ask.
and thank you.
I'd honestly say that your first post was the one that derailed the thread and it has been a downward spiral since.
Some points to consider.
Why do you hold journalistic freedom as being so much more important than people's freedom to discuss an article. People, should be accountable for what they write, and of course you should expect higher standards from a professional journalist than members of a public forum. And of course there are boundaries and rules, you went immediatly off topic with your first post and it now seems that all you're really looking to achieve is a continuation of a squabble on another forum. While you're doing that, the issues in this article (the cost of the options, to an extent Lotus's ability to develop and sell cars, and the journalistic quality of the article) become almost secondary to a slightly strange internet fight.
Your initial argument seemed to be about if an Evora was worth the money in the UAE. You think not, that fine, others think it is, this is also fine.
You say that small companies shouldn't be cut any slack. That's also fine. But it's a simple fact that they can not compete on every front with companies with far greater resources. I suspect Lotus would love to be more competitive in the UAE but have to price the car even more strongly to cover the costs of selling and looking after the cars and customers in a territory where they do not have a strong foothold. It's also possible they see it as an affluent market where high margins should be possible. I"ll garuntee that they do not have a huge marketing and strategy department running endless price sensitivity studies to pick price points in different territories. They can't afford this. It isn't some personal attack on you or the UAE by Lotus. I'm not saying you're wrong for not choosing a Lotus (911s are lovely, I'm sure you"ll enjoy it). I don't understand why the simple facts of the circumstances annoy you so much and why you think it makes it a crap company. If you wanted a 5 door family hatchback at 20K euros, Porsche would not be able to satisfy you (let's not muddy the waters with parent companies) it certainly doesn't make Porsche a garbage company. I even forgive Porsche their bore scoring and IMS issues.
Then moving on to who and how Lotus compete. its tenuous to mention Ferrari and McLaren, I don't know anyone who sat down and weighed up a choice between these. Where it has happened, it will be older Ferraris against new Evoras. Ultimately, the usage will dictate which suits. Porsche is closer and more valid, but still ultimately very different. With sports cars, there is always compromise and the purchase is very emotional. If it wasn't, we'd all drive GTRs as they provide a spec sheet at a price that others don't match. But 911s are lovely, and Evoras are lovely, so you can pick one that's the best value, or pick the one that you find most rewarding to drive and look at. 911s are a unique experience, you have to drive them in a special way to exploit their advantage and drive around the compromise (both being where the weight is carried). An Evora drives much more like what it is ...a mid engined RWD sports car. So although they compete in a way, they are also very different as drivers cars. Which is better is completely dependant upon what you want from your car.
Further examples - Porsche panel gaps and interior trim gaps are smaller. The Lotus is prettier. Doesn't it become obvious that there is room for both, and it's possible to like both or neither. I see value in discussing and contrasting different attributes in them. But I see zero value in bickering over which is 'best'.
nationalism. This is part of the brands. Without any doubt, being German is a sales point of Porsche (even the ones that aren't built there) and R8s etc. Being Italien is a key part of Ferraris brand. Lamborghini have had quite a change in values since it became part of its parent as the two companies had very different values. It's been a sales success but has changed the target market. So the origins and history of a brand will always be noted. It's also worth remembering that Porsche were marketing themselves as German quality and engineering when they sold 10 years worth of cars with several major engine flaws. It's part and parcel of the industry and the German OEMs are as guilty as anyone else.
I didn't go for an Evora because it was British. I wanted something that felt more lively in terms of handling (the car moving around more) that the 911 I had. Years ago, I changed an E46 M3 Cab for the Porsche as I wanted something with a very stiff and taught body. I don't expect the press to ignore the flaws of an Evora, just as I expect them to have an opinion on a lack of a genuine manual gearbox or missing steering feel in a sports car. I just expect balance that identifies the strengths and the good, while explaining the flaws and the compromises.
The article is a missed opportunity to me. Yes the options are expensive - maybe some analysis about the makeup of the cost, development, tools, material, margin. Maybe contrast with aftermarket parts and kits? Could even have discussed why an Evora is heavier in the first place than the headlines suggest. So much potentially interesting stuff for an article on an enthusiasts web site. But instead it's thin on analysis and sarcastic in tone.
Anyway. Your 911 will be a great car, Evoras are a great car. I'm delighted we get the choice.
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