RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer
Discussion
Wow I was truly surprised at that 911 weight, 1380kg!!
My f-type is a portly 1700kg but really doesn't feel it.
I had thought the Lotus would be a couple of hundred kg lighter than anything out there but seems Porsche have really lifted their game.
Personally I think the Exige is much nicer looking than the Evora although all the current range are just not quite there styling wise for me.
My f-type is a portly 1700kg but really doesn't feel it.
I had thought the Lotus would be a couple of hundred kg lighter than anything out there but seems Porsche have really lifted their game.
Personally I think the Exige is much nicer looking than the Evora although all the current range are just not quite there styling wise for me.
Lotuslover669 said:
but jay i heard to get the 911R u have to sign some sort of contract that you wont flip the car for 6 months or 2 years (not sure about 2 years) or something, which is porsche's way of saying DO NOT SPECULATE on our cars. GT3 were for 35k???? i am relatively young but i did not experience that era 
, the 996 tho did not stand the test of time in looks...i dunno how the reaction to it was when it was new (was too young then)
i know why they made it a limited run tho, cuz they put the new GT3 engine in it and now the GT3 doesnt come with a manual, since the GT3 is built for the tracks with PDK, so the 911R will be the best / last naturally aspirated engine with a manual gearbox that will be put out by porsche. (for the foreseeable future)
Err..what are you on about? 996 GT3s were £35k about 3 years ago., the 996 tho did not stand the test of time in looks...i dunno how the reaction to it was when it was new (was too young then)i know why they made it a limited run tho, cuz they put the new GT3 engine in it and now the GT3 doesnt come with a manual, since the GT3 is built for the tracks with PDK, so the 911R will be the best / last naturally aspirated engine with a manual gearbox that will be put out by porsche. (for the foreseeable future)
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Friday 19th August 22:06
And the 991.2 GT3 is widely tipped/confirmed to have a manual option.
Given the choice between an Exige and a 911R for a road blast, I would take the Lotus every time.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Saturday 20th August 09:50
Personally, I think trying to claim the Evora is a marvel of lightweight engineering is never going to end well for Lotus because as others have pointed out, Porsche have comparable models that weigh the same. The new Cayman is lighter. Everyone expects a Lotus to weight 1000kg or something but in reality that's never going to happen these days without huge compromises. The Alfa Romeo 4C gained 155kg in the move to the USA, the Evora 400 only about 35. The Elise and Exige are NOT type approved in the USA, nor are they likely to be in current form.
But in contrast to something like an Aston Martin, or an R8, it is quite light. I felt the interior of the Evora 400 was much more "special" than the first gen R8, felt like a much more bespoke place. I didn't like that you had to spend thousands on the R8 interior, on what was already a £110k car (in V10 form) to get it to look like a car of that price. That and the fact you've paid nearly triple the price of a TT, but inside it can be hard to tell.
Some images for illustration.
Audi TT S
Audi R8 interior
Evora 400 interior
Not bad I would say considering it cost Lotus less to develop the Evora than Audi did building one dealership.
But in contrast to something like an Aston Martin, or an R8, it is quite light. I felt the interior of the Evora 400 was much more "special" than the first gen R8, felt like a much more bespoke place. I didn't like that you had to spend thousands on the R8 interior, on what was already a £110k car (in V10 form) to get it to look like a car of that price. That and the fact you've paid nearly triple the price of a TT, but inside it can be hard to tell.
Some images for illustration.
Audi TT S
Audi R8 interior
Evora 400 interior
Not bad I would say considering it cost Lotus less to develop the Evora than Audi did building one dealership.
Edited by jayemm89 on Saturday 20th August 10:07
robm3 said:
Wow I was truly surprised at that 911 weight, 1380kg!!
My f-type is a portly 1700kg but really doesn't feel it.
I had thought the Lotus would be a couple of hundred kg lighter than anything out there but seems Porsche have really lifted their game.
Personally I think the Exige is much nicer looking than the Evora although all the current range are just not quite there styling wise for me.
Even an Exige is 1150 or something. Porsche do a very good job of weight management. It's got harder for companies like lotus as legislation has forced the use of systems they used to leave out. And they try to broaden the appeal which means more systems and more consciousness of what customers see as quality. They can't possibly engineer all systems to the highest standards as that's an expensive game - they have to prioritise.My f-type is a portly 1700kg but really doesn't feel it.
I had thought the Lotus would be a couple of hundred kg lighter than anything out there but seems Porsche have really lifted their game.
Personally I think the Exige is much nicer looking than the Evora although all the current range are just not quite there styling wise for me.
Light weight almost always comes with a high cost in at least 2 of the the following 3 (material cost, tooling cost, development cost) if you're trying to make a robust product with reasonable quality levels (start taking some systems out and you can start making very big steps without huge costs - like the Atom). It makes it ever more difficult for a low volume manufacturer with limited resources. It doesn't mean we should cut Lotus extra slack and lie about the weight, it's a shame the Evora isn't a 1200Kg car but to be one would cost quite a lot more and reduce sales (most likely).
I think if you drive an F-Type and 911 back to back you do feel the weight. Not so much in the performance but in the assistance levels / feedback in the controls (that work to mask the weight). Very pretty car though and a real entertaining handful (in a very fun way).
Jayemm, I agree on the interior to a point (it's an industry I have quite a lot of experience in). Where the Audi excels is in the type of quality you can measure, ergonomics, gaps between panels, robustness and durability in extreme cases, constant operating loads and sounds on switches etc... That kind of thing. It will also be lighter weight (keeping an eye on the original article) because they can exploit development, tools and materials in way Lotus never will unless they become part of a much larger group.
But... The quality you can measure is only part of the story, the design, choice of a-surface materials etc are also very important to how you feel about an interior. And here, the lotus is very lovely - to the point where I prefer it. What Lotus have done very well with the Evora is made an interior that looks and feels special and pleasing while hitting an acceptable quality level (maybe the very early cars didn't quite hit acceptability). Very clever really.
But... The quality you can measure is only part of the story, the design, choice of a-surface materials etc are also very important to how you feel about an interior. And here, the lotus is very lovely - to the point where I prefer it. What Lotus have done very well with the Evora is made an interior that looks and feels special and pleasing while hitting an acceptable quality level (maybe the very early cars didn't quite hit acceptability). Very clever really.
The oddity about interiors is that people dribble over the Ferrari F40 yet its interior would probably be shamed by many a kit-car! The BMW Z1 (the one with drop down doors) had a fairly rudimentary interior as well because the cars were all hand built with as little factory tooling as possible. Both cars are well regarded.
At the end of the day to achieve a successful sportscar the factory has to get the balance of price/performance/features just right for potential customers - or people won't buy the car.
At the end of the day to achieve a successful sportscar the factory has to get the balance of price/performance/features just right for potential customers - or people won't buy the car.
Ozzie Osmond said:
The oddity about interiors is that people dribble over the Ferrari F40 yet its interior would probably be shamed by many a kit-car! The BMW Z1 (the one with drop down doors) had a fairly rudimentary interior as well because the cars were all hand built with as little factory tooling as possible. Both cars are well regarded.
At the end of the day to achieve a successful sportscar the factory has to get the balance of price/performance/features just right for potential customers - or people won't buy the car.
Times and consumer expectations have changed since then. And they weren't sold in big numbers.At the end of the day to achieve a successful sportscar the factory has to get the balance of price/performance/features just right for potential customers - or people won't buy the car.
I read the factory press release before I read the Pistonhead article, and my reaction was what a load of (marketing) tosh...and I am a Lotus fanboy.
I do think the Pistonheads article has taken this one stage further and seems to be saying how dare Lotus, or who do Lotus think they are to go charging so much for these options (by the way Li-ion batteries are really expensive...we are in the process of looking at them at work right now, for a completely different application, and we`re looking at £1200 per battery!...in volume)?
I think this attitude comes from the origins of Lotus road cars, in that they were sometimes kit built, and have had a poor reputation for quality and reliability...partly due to their electrician for many years being colour blind!!
I currently own three however, and have owned 3 others in the last 5 years, and apart from the odd glitch all been very reliable...so far!
So here we are in 2016 and look whatever next, Lotus charging £70+k for a new car, how dare they??? £100k if you want a sequential gearbox (unbelievable)... It is a difficult one, it is a harsh market out their and clearly most main stream car manufacturers can add features and employ manufacturing techniques to cut costs that the likes of Lotus can only dream about, whence they seem expensive for what they are, but then what are they? A VW golf...what more of a car could you need and for less that £30k? No...errm a Ferrari...well a similar thing in a way, but a fraction of the price...errm a Porsche, closer, mainly because of pricing, but not really. Porsche are too mainstream (apart from one or two extremely expensive hardcore models)...superbly made and detailed, but VW has engineered the soul out of them, but you cannot dispute the market success they have achieved, which will be due to the softening of the driving experience etc. So what you get with Lotus is pretty hardcore...311, to soft hardcore with the Evora...it gives you most of the thrills and feedback but in a soft package, and at a reasonable price point (this is not to say that I cannot and indeed do not regularly think about ways of making them even batter). Lets face it, you`d struggle to get the same all round driving experience in any other car, and if you did it would be considerably more expensive...and I own a McLaren and have driven friends Ferrari`s, Lamborghini`s and various Porches...and I still come back to my Lotus`s for the best driving experience...there is just something about the balance and feel of them (at the price point). Not driven a Cayman GT4 though...and I definitely refuse to pay £110k for one...perhaps Porsche messed up and should have charged than £76 (+ pricey options) from new, then I would have been more inclined to accept the price? Anyhow, I think the speculators will catch a cold quite soon.
So my point being is that I think they can justify their current price tag, and in some ways a little more, and as for the options, well they are pricey and as a percentage of the cars new value, they do not seem to make sense, but that will not deter the odd customer who wants them and absolutely why shouldn't Lotus and their dealers be allowed to make a bit of a profit??
By the way, ne of Lotus`s main weaknesses is it`s marketing department...and all the areas which that covers...it`s distinctly amateurish.
I do think the Pistonheads article has taken this one stage further and seems to be saying how dare Lotus, or who do Lotus think they are to go charging so much for these options (by the way Li-ion batteries are really expensive...we are in the process of looking at them at work right now, for a completely different application, and we`re looking at £1200 per battery!...in volume)?
I think this attitude comes from the origins of Lotus road cars, in that they were sometimes kit built, and have had a poor reputation for quality and reliability...partly due to their electrician for many years being colour blind!!
I currently own three however, and have owned 3 others in the last 5 years, and apart from the odd glitch all been very reliable...so far!
So here we are in 2016 and look whatever next, Lotus charging £70+k for a new car, how dare they??? £100k if you want a sequential gearbox (unbelievable)... It is a difficult one, it is a harsh market out their and clearly most main stream car manufacturers can add features and employ manufacturing techniques to cut costs that the likes of Lotus can only dream about, whence they seem expensive for what they are, but then what are they? A VW golf...what more of a car could you need and for less that £30k? No...errm a Ferrari...well a similar thing in a way, but a fraction of the price...errm a Porsche, closer, mainly because of pricing, but not really. Porsche are too mainstream (apart from one or two extremely expensive hardcore models)...superbly made and detailed, but VW has engineered the soul out of them, but you cannot dispute the market success they have achieved, which will be due to the softening of the driving experience etc. So what you get with Lotus is pretty hardcore...311, to soft hardcore with the Evora...it gives you most of the thrills and feedback but in a soft package, and at a reasonable price point (this is not to say that I cannot and indeed do not regularly think about ways of making them even batter). Lets face it, you`d struggle to get the same all round driving experience in any other car, and if you did it would be considerably more expensive...and I own a McLaren and have driven friends Ferrari`s, Lamborghini`s and various Porches...and I still come back to my Lotus`s for the best driving experience...there is just something about the balance and feel of them (at the price point). Not driven a Cayman GT4 though...and I definitely refuse to pay £110k for one...perhaps Porsche messed up and should have charged than £76 (+ pricey options) from new, then I would have been more inclined to accept the price? Anyhow, I think the speculators will catch a cold quite soon.
So my point being is that I think they can justify their current price tag, and in some ways a little more, and as for the options, well they are pricey and as a percentage of the cars new value, they do not seem to make sense, but that will not deter the odd customer who wants them and absolutely why shouldn't Lotus and their dealers be allowed to make a bit of a profit??
By the way, ne of Lotus`s main weaknesses is it`s marketing department...and all the areas which that covers...it`s distinctly amateurish.
andy_s said:
For the real lightweight connoisseur the Elise Cup 250 is still only 930Kg, performs close to the Exige 350 and the Evora 400; you pays yer money and takes yer choice...
very true. it's the heavy sub-frames that are fattening up the V6 models. for me lighter weight 4 pots are better, and of course the old K was ideal.The joy of the Elise is not in top trumps power but the chassis. It's a shame there isn't an NA version with 175bhp. Even the std 220 is too much for the road imo. the lighter original at 118 is great. So, to accept some extra weight for safety kit and 55hp will be more than enough extra. like the previous 135. I want to use the box and all the revs!
Hungrymc said:
Ok, thank you for the reply.
I'd honestly say that your first post was the one that derailed the thread and it has been a downward spiral since.
Some points to consider.
1 Why do you hold journalistic freedom ...
2 Your initial argument seemed to be about if an Evora was worth the money in the UAE. You think not, that fine, others think it is, this is also fine...
3 You say that small companies shouldn't be cut any slack. ..
4 Then moving on to who and how Lotus compete. its tenuous to mention Ferrari....
5 Further examples - Porsche panel gaps and interior trim gaps are smaller...bickering over which is 'best'...
.
6 nationalism. This is part of the brands.....
The article is a missed opportunity to me. Yes the options are expensive - maybe some analysis about the makeup of the cost, development, tools, material, margin. Maybe contrast with aftermarket parts and kits? Could even have discussed why an Evora is heavier in the first place than the headlines suggest. So much potentially interesting stuff for an article on an enthusiasts web site. But instead it's thin on analysis and sarcastic in tone.
Anyway. Your 911 will be a great car, Evoras are a great car. I'm delighted we get the choice.
1 - because I hate it when fanboys think that by blowing the trumpet or beating the drums they can "drown out" the legitimate voices that are here trying to objectively criticize the author? are we gonna check each and every opinion against the official Lotus forums to see if that is where it was generated? the amount of replies that were "bad article, bad writer, writer should feel bad , pistonheads should feel bad" (some of them were more articulate when stating this, but it doesn't change the substance) were insurmountable, i still to this moment don't know which replies came from the TLF forums and which are legitimate grievances , do you? I'd honestly say that your first post was the one that derailed the thread and it has been a downward spiral since.
Some points to consider.
1 Why do you hold journalistic freedom ...
2 Your initial argument seemed to be about if an Evora was worth the money in the UAE. You think not, that fine, others think it is, this is also fine...
3 You say that small companies shouldn't be cut any slack. ..
4 Then moving on to who and how Lotus compete. its tenuous to mention Ferrari....
5 Further examples - Porsche panel gaps and interior trim gaps are smaller...bickering over which is 'best'...
.
6 nationalism. This is part of the brands.....
The article is a missed opportunity to me. Yes the options are expensive - maybe some analysis about the makeup of the cost, development, tools, material, margin. Maybe contrast with aftermarket parts and kits? Could even have discussed why an Evora is heavier in the first place than the headlines suggest. So much potentially interesting stuff for an article on an enthusiasts web site. But instead it's thin on analysis and sarcastic in tone.
Anyway. Your 911 will be a great car, Evoras are a great car. I'm delighted we get the choice.
2 - yes apparently I am a "troll" on the TLF forums for believing that. some of them just couldn't agree to disagree, you can see their behavior here as well, especially from members such as Havoc (but I sent him a private message yesterday trying to end this constant back and forth, I hope his reply was sincere)
3- Lotus is not a crap company, I actually like them, but i stated what i stated because obviously I did not have the best relations with some of the folks from TLF and also because of recognizing the same pattern of behavior taking place on this thread (which i have described repeatedly many times already) pissed me off, The fact that Lotus is a small company is not a legitimate argument in its defense.
4- I wasn't the one who brought up ferrari as a comparative tool, it was done by some of the TLF folks, some unfortunately do equate Lotus with Ferrari (lalaland is real) but thats their right, if they are gonna spew these statements then they should expect to be challenged on them especially on a 3rd party website, where there are fans of many other brands. I understand and it goes without saying that its not fair to compare a Lotus to a Ferrari, but it is still legitimate if someone uses the argument of "Ferrari does it why shouldn't Lotus", if he thinks both brands are the same then I have the right to challenge him on his beliefs.
5- yes lets stop the bickering, lets also stop the drum beating. lets agree on those.
6- Yes , Nationalism is part of the brand, but should or is not a legitimate argument in favor of the brand. a British journalist shouldn't feel being held for ransom when reviewing a British automobile. the same goes for his German, American , Italian and Japanese equivalents.
Yes , Thank you I am already enjoying my 911s (to the great dismay of the Lotus folks and bibs), I am glad for the choices we have as well, and will be happier the more these choices increase in the future.
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Saturday 20th August 13:13
CABC said:
very true. it's the heavy sub-frames that are fattening up the V6 models. for me lighter weight 4 pots are better, and of course the old K was ideal.
The joy of the Elise is not in top trumps power but the chassis. It's a shame there isn't an NA version with 175bhp. Even the std 220 is too much for the road imo. the lighter original at 118 is great. So, to accept some extra weight for safety kit and 55hp will be more than enough extra. like the previous 135. I want to use the box and all the revs!
Yeah - I hamfistedly threw my 111S into a ditch, but for me it was where analogue / power / weight / feel / connection all came together the most beautifully. The joy of the Elise is not in top trumps power but the chassis. It's a shame there isn't an NA version with 175bhp. Even the std 220 is too much for the road imo. the lighter original at 118 is great. So, to accept some extra weight for safety kit and 55hp will be more than enough extra. like the previous 135. I want to use the box and all the revs!
Lotuslover669 said:
Yes, Nationalism is part of the brand,
That'll be the Malaysian ownership and Toyota engines. On the other hand the more Toyota you find in a Lotus the better the car.When push comes to shove I still believe it's fundamentally "the product itself" which sells sportscars. For an example from Hethel, they were struggling to shift Elan M100 but Elise sold like hot cakes straight out of the box, sweeping away Renault's Spyder Sport. I think also early Elite/Éclat cars were problematic but it sold pretty well once developed into the (Toyota) Excel.
Off topic, but I've always thought Toyota were the most natural owner for Lotus.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Off topic, but I've always thought Toyota were the most natural owner for Lotus.
yes.i disagree that Lotus's heritage is too old. For many parts of the world, specifically Asia and US, it's still valid and there to be leveraged. I'm not suggesting they rest on long past glories, but the marketing team should use it.
The future of Lotus needs to be abroad, UK alone isn't going to sustain a car company.
The other problem for core Lotus fans is that growth may well lie in very fast fat cars and suvs, which is far from the reason most of us love Lotus. Imagine a world where Porsche engineers were let loose to produce a small, light sports car? off course it would be great but the company has moved on from their mid-twentieth century sports roots.
People will quote the gt86 as the reason why Toyota won't go further into sports cars, but i'm not sure. it's been more successful elsewhere in the world, whereas in the UK it was highly priced, and it still was a compromise car, a daily sports car, rather than an explicit sports car such as an mx5.
Would be a good fit IMO, Toyota don't really have any high end brands, Lexus IS more a BMW competitor and anything they have tried to sell at over 100k has often sold badly. Lotus would seem a great option for then their already exclusively using their engines and have been for the past 10 years
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