RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer

RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer

Author
Discussion

Havoc856

2,072 posts

178 months

Saturday 20th August 2016
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
but we live in a world where you can spend £40k on a Golf, £50k on an A-Class or £115k on a non "turbo"/GT 911
You know something... I've never thought of it like that...

But you can also buy a V8 coupe for £35k from Ford.


Edited by Havoc856 on Saturday 20th August 22:49

kbf1981

2,249 posts

199 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
Lotus' biggest problem with the Evora.... no scratch that, Lotus biggest problem is their marketing - or lack thereof. The original Evora won FIVE car of the year awards (possibly more), was extremely well received, but unfortunately a lot happened with the company that meant it never quite took off. The 400 is a fairly different car and to be honest deserves to be priced higher than the original.

People moan about Lotus charging £70k for it... but we live in a world where you can spend £40k on a Golf, £50k on an A-Class or £115k on a non "turbo"/GT 911
Could be budget - how much do Porsche, BMW etc. spend on marketing?

I think it's silly how people can't make their own mind up about a product, they need marketers to tell them. I'd imo just go drive all these cars and pick the one that's best for you. I've had a lotus and it was very fun and different.

Oilchange

8,421 posts

259 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
The Germans have never been known to lie about their figures though have they...


When it comes to reviews and generally being unkind, Lotus are easy targets for some people.
The big companies would simply blacklist the writer for the next few posh, well fed/boozed up launches in nice locations, or not lend them the latest greatest machine off the line.

Journalists know what side of the bread is buttered and when a car company can't write cheques to butter them up they can write what they like.


Edited by Oilchange on Sunday 21st August 08:42

blueg33

35,578 posts

223 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
kbf1981 said:
jayemm89 said:
Lotus' biggest problem with the Evora.... no scratch that, Lotus biggest problem is their marketing - or lack thereof. The original Evora won FIVE car of the year awards (possibly more), was extremely well received, but unfortunately a lot happened with the company that meant it never quite took off. The 400 is a fairly different car and to be honest deserves to be priced higher than the original.

People moan about Lotus charging £70k for it... but we live in a world where you can spend £40k on a Golf, £50k on an A-Class or £115k on a non "turbo"/GT 911
Could be budget - how much do Porsche, BMW etc. spend on marketing?

I think it's silly how people can't make their own mind up about a product, they need marketers to tell them. I'd imo just go drive all these cars and pick the one that's best for you. I've had a lotus and it was very fun and different.
You have to know a product exists to even consider trying it. That's what marketing does and the high visibility Porsche dealerships do that very effectively. Aston have sold more cars since they started building swanky high vis dealerships.

Compare those the best Lotus dealers eg Lotus Silverstone, its like a secret place hidden somewhere that 99 percent of the population will never visit they will certainly never drive past and see it.

Havoc856

2,072 posts

178 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
True, i'd been to Silverstone many times and never knew the location of Lotus Silverstone.... Took me 2 attempts lol.

jayemm89

4,003 posts

129 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
For what it's worth, Lotus' conversion rate of test drives to sales is apparently 30%. That's staggeringly high.

Unfortunately, the numbers are still small and I genuinely believe that's down to marketing (or a lack of). Everywhere I take my 400 it gets lots of comments, looks etc.... more so than any Porsche I've ever driven. It's a completely different experience.

CTE

1,488 posts

239 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
That's certainly true, they are never going to sell if you cannot find the dealer, and when you do find it, it turns out to be an old industrial building...compared to the spanky nearby Porsche dealer along with purpose made driver experience centre within earshot...what chance do the likes of Lotus stand when trying to broaden their appeal?
The positive side from an owners point of view mean the relatively low numbers help limit numbers and retain values...
As a minimum Lotus could make so much more of Hethel and the test track...but sadly one element of the top management is at best incompetent.
It's also sad that whilst Lotus has done thing but loose money for years, the current owners have the recourses to make the right investments and turn it round, but sadly they behave like blinkered ultra conservative accountants.
Oh and the Evora was designed to be V8 replacement for the Esprit with various engines tested but it all came to an end just before the Malaysians came on board...to be fair the best way forward for Lotus is very complicated.

jayemm89

4,003 posts

129 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
CTE said:
Oh and the Evora was designed to be V8 replacement for the Esprit with various engines tested but it all came to an end just before the Malaysians came on board...to be fair the best way forward for Lotus is very complicated.
That first part there is wrong. If you follow my YT channel (what I'm not allowed to link to) in the next few months there will be a full explanation of "the Evora story" but it was designed as a model between Elise and Esprit. But the Lotus management at the time knew that you can't have a £100k Esprit and a £30k Elise with nothing in the middle, so the Evora was the stop-gap. An Esprit was going to follow (this is pre-DB)

There *was* another car, which WAS going to be V8 and WAS going to be an Esprit replacement. The internal code was "mid-engined supercar", but it got canned as it wasn't good enough.

The last half of your sentence is very correct. Lotus are in a very, very difficult situation and frankly it shows amazing faith in them that they haven't been shut down already.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
The car I always wanted was a slightly bigger Elise with a V6 in the middle. Lotus disagreed and are still living with the consequences today.

M250 (I remember seeing it at Brands Hatch) looked pretty promising to me but never happened.

andy_s

19,397 posts

258 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
The reviews from the US Evora 400 launch have been excellent; hopefully they can capitalise on it - it should be very popular (by Lotus standards) but may be hampered by limited dealer network I guess.

jayemm89

4,003 posts

129 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
The car I always wanted was a slightly bigger Elise with a V6 in the middle. Lotus disagreed and are still living with the consequences today.

M250 (I remember seeing it at Brands Hatch) looked pretty promising to me but never happened.
1. You mean a V6 Exige? That's pretty literally an Elise front with the Evora's V6 and rear subframe on the back. It came out of the Evora's development program as an accidental bonus. The Europa was also an attempt as a slightly larger Elise, but the problem is if you make an Elise "slightly larger" or "slightly softer" or "slightly easier" then people tend to cry bloody murder that you've ruined the car.

2. M250 was due to happen, but it was designed around the Alfa Romeo V6. For whatever reason, the management then said "Yeah let's build this and we're going to sell it in the USA"... except that Engine wasn't certified for sale in the USA (and never was going to be)... so the project got axed.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
1. You mean a V6 Exige? That's pretty literally an Elise front with the Evora's V6 and rear subframe on the back. It came out of the Evora's development program as an accidental bonus. The Europa was also an attempt as a slightly larger Elise, but the problem is if you make an Elise "slightly larger" or "slightly softer" or "slightly easier" then people tend to cry bloody murder that you've ruined the car.
.
the car would be 'ruined' and a small number of people cry out, but they're existing owners who don't buy enough cars.
Personally i don't want a bigger Elise, but the market may well do.
That said if Toyota offered Lotus through their dealer network market demand for fun/track cars may well be much bigger. Lotus still need a car with greater appeal such as Evora 2, suv.

jayemm89

4,003 posts

129 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
The problem is if you start trying to make a "luxurious Lotus" you have to compete on even terms with people like Porsche, BMW etc... and Lotus simply do not have the resources to do that.

Of course, if something nice happened like Toyota bought them, then it might. But Proton do not have the cash or expertise to sink into them. Frankly, given what Lotus under DB did to Proton, I expect any request for money is highly vetted

chrispj

264 posts

142 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
From the links you posted, 50kg weight advantage to Lotus, a whole 14bhp and 0.3 secs in 0-62 in favour of Porsche, CO2 - 1 tax band or a whopping £25 in car tax in favour of the Porsche, and a nominal 7mpg to Porsche, which you'll never see because no-one drives like the EU tests. You don't get much from Porsche for your extra £13000, do you?

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
The problem is if you start trying to make a "luxurious Lotus" you have to compete on even terms with people like Porsche, BMW etc... and Lotus simply do not have the resources to do that.

Of course, if something nice happened like Toyota bought them, then it might. But Proton do not have the cash or expertise to sink into them. Frankly, given what Lotus under DB did to Proton, I expect any request for money is highly vetted
that's where the big market is, so yes you have to compete. Hircom should fund a real plan or sell up, bumbling along is just wasting their asset valueaway. easy for me to say from a keyboard, as Lotus has wasted lots of cash in the past.

Porsche used to be quite hardcore requiring compromise from their owners, selling quite low volumes and nearly going bust. They werent 'aspirational'. That's a few decades ago but things change. Lexus has quite high status in many parts of the world, from a standing start. Ferrari weren't 'asprational' either, now they're synonymous with luxury. LR is now 'mainstream luxury' globally, not just niche. Transformation can happen, it takes a little time and no small amount of cash. Thing is, a dribble of cash is worse business than no cash.

saaby93

32,038 posts

177 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
chrispj said:
saaby93 said:
From the links you posted, 50kg weight advantage to Lotus, a whole 14bhp and 0.3 secs in 0-62 in favour of Porsche, CO2 - 1 tax band or a whopping £25 in car tax in favour of the Porsche, and a nominal 7mpg to Porsche, which you'll never see because no-one drives like the EU tests. You don't get much from Porsche for your extra £13000, do you?
No but couldnt the co2 figures be in the same band?

Nice link here
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/best-of-brit...



chrispj

264 posts

142 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
No but couldnt the co2 figures be in the same band?
Probably they would be if the engine was turbocharged rather than supercharged, as you still have to drive the supercharger at low load, don't you? But then everyone would complain about the lag and the character of the noise... The Jag F-type's smaller (3 litre) supercharged V6 splits the difference at 213gm/km for only 335 bhp so I don't think Lotus are doing too badly with their offering!

jayemm89

4,003 posts

129 months

Sunday 21st August 2016
quotequote all
Porsche's (admittedly excellent) PDK box will be making a lot of the differences here.

I have not driven a new-gen 911 but I have yet to drive a turbocharged car that gives me the response I require from a sports car. The BMW M4 was a terrible disappointment in this regard.