RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer
Discussion
Always so cringey reading about lotus on PH. Looks are subjective so no point replying to those points. Options are options! They are priced competitively as others have already pointed out. Lotus is not just about Elise type cars anymore and the Evora is a brilliant car for me and many others. I am glad such options have been made available and to be honest would like more wheel options, stitching colour options etc etc why the fudge not? If you don't want options then don't option them! A lot of fuss about nothing.
richardaucock said:
This! I'm the biggest fan of Lotus but does it quite command Ferrari or Porsche status and would people really not blink when signing an order form for over £86k with these options added on?
Are you claiming that it would be fine for Porsche to charge these kind of prices for options on a £60k Boxster, but if Lotus try it on a £70k Evora it's a piss take?Carbon fiber tat is always expensive, any fule know dat.
The battery - well, to misquote someone in the know, it's a proper spec B(?) battery with mounting, the retail price for which on its own would be in the region of a grand so for a manufacturer fit item its not too bad. It's not a £150 ebay special (apparently).
What does seem excessive to me is the price for the exhaust, that seems properly steep. I thought renault charged 2k for an akrapovic titanium one on the megane 275? It's not the like the 400 needs a louder exhaust either, so it seems pretty superfluous to me all in all.
All that being said, these are options. You don't have to spec them and personally I wouldn't bother.
PS - article is s
t.
The battery - well, to misquote someone in the know, it's a proper spec B(?) battery with mounting, the retail price for which on its own would be in the region of a grand so for a manufacturer fit item its not too bad. It's not a £150 ebay special (apparently).
What does seem excessive to me is the price for the exhaust, that seems properly steep. I thought renault charged 2k for an akrapovic titanium one on the megane 275? It's not the like the 400 needs a louder exhaust either, so it seems pretty superfluous to me all in all.
All that being said, these are options. You don't have to spec them and personally I wouldn't bother.
PS - article is s
t. yonex said:
AH33 said:
Nope, the proportions are all wrong. It looks bad from every angle to me. The headlights are particularly horrible.
The S2 Exige, now there is one they did right.
I think you're totally wrong. The Exige S2 is very fussy compared to the S1 and the Evora design flows really well. The S2 Exige, now there is one they did right.
The Evora by comparison is far too visually narrow, pinched and oddly and proportioned...it does flow well though, pre-facelift anyway.
The only Evora that gets close IMO, actually it gets much more than close it nails it, is the GTE http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=152...
Evoras are far more colour and wheel sensitive than Exiges...and that's down to stance, proportion and detail...and also I'm not a fan of taking a subtle aesthetic and giving it an angular angry facelift.
NB I'd also be fascinated to find out just how many buyers spec any of the unseen weight saving measures, or delete interior options...
Edited by Quickmoose on Friday 19th August 15:44
Impasse said:
richardaucock said:
This! I'm the biggest fan of Lotus but does it quite command Ferrari or Porsche status and would people really not blink when signing an order form for over £86k with these options added on?
The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
But they're options, not compulsions. The buyer can choose whether or not to indulge. All you've done is sneer at the price while conveniently forgetting other marques offer similar components for similar profit making reasons. The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
But there is a lot of money in the options and that's the way the Evora is going and appealing to a non standard lotus market. There will always be stripped out versions (as there already is of the 400) and more hard core Elise and exige for others who want the more involving drive. Personally I think it's a step in the right direction and since launch people have been asking for more options to individualise their car. Lotus offer it and get a bit of a beating. Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
richardaucock said:
This! I'm the biggest fan of Lotus but does it quite command Ferrari or Porsche status and would people really not blink when signing an order form for over £86k with these options added on?
The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
I think to be honest the points you make around weight versus cost are valid (but no worse than any other manufacturer). It's also largely irrelevant, as they are far more likely to be purchased for aesthetics than weight savings. Your article however comes across as particularly snotty. If you are a supporter of Lotus then there are ways to make your point without taking an unwarranted "pop" at this great British company. The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
No Lotus doesn't deserve Porsche status - they deserves more, but that is my opinion. I had a choice to make and made it. The biggest problem is getting people with no imagination to try a Lotus and not just turn up at the Porsche dealers. Articles like yours do not help but they do help perpetuate the "I don't want aircon it'll break" type comments, which have been pretty much unfounded for many years.
Yes, I own an Evora, yes I am shortly changing that for a 400, no I didn't spec the carbon pack, but nor would I had it been available when I specced my car because I don't see the value in it. That said it is worth note that the parts listed are actually cheaper than the equivalent after market CF parts available for the S1 Evora. Low number hand made production = high cost, simples. If you want it you pay for it, if you don't then don't.
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
And since that 2009 car, it's had a 45% increase in power...Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
When Porsche do a lightweight special with string door handles, they sell that at a knock-down price too, do they?
No?
If Lotus can sell the cars full price, even selling them with expensive options on top, why would they want to start flogging lower margin versions?
richardaucock said:
This! I'm the biggest fan of Lotus but does it quite command Ferrari or Porsche status and would people really not blink when signing an order form for over £86k with these options added on?
The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
I suspect it's the style of writing you have used. I suspect you're aiming at some humor but it just comes across as sarcastic and a little nasty (whilst trying to dress it with a smile). If I were Lotus, it's the style and not the content that would put me off engaging further and taking you up on your proposed discussion as it comes across as if you've enjoyed ridiculing this a little too much.The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
As it happens, the options are a bit rich for me, but then I couldn't quite bring myself to buy a new Evora and went used anyway, so my opinion is of little value as I'm not really target market. And of course these are premium options on their premium product... No surprise they are expensive.
Which Ferrari are you comparing it to at £73k or £86k? The Porsche comparison holds a little more water, but I think you may be missing a point that at least some who buy them, actually buy them because they are not a Porsche. Therefore it doesn't have to beat Porsche everywhere and doesn't have to hit specific price points.... It has to be a Lotus and do some specific things very well.
As to who would or wouldn't blink an eye about the cost, I don't really understand your point. It will be a low take up option by those who have the means and the inclination.... You can't really say any more than this surely.
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
Go into the right dealer. Ask for a Hethel Edition and negotiate. You'll get one starting with a 6.Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
The 400 is quite a jump from the S1 N/A you have referenced above. It is 150% as powerful for a start.
stuno1 said:
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
But there is a lot of money in the options and that's the way the Evora is going and appealing to a non standard lotus market. There will always be stripped out versions (as there already is of the 400) and more hard core Elise and exige for others who want the more involving drive. Personally I think it's a step in the right direction and since launch people have been asking for more options to individualise their car. Lotus offer it and get a bit of a beating. Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
You could say the same about the 911. Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
Actually, pretty much every new car has got a lot more expensive in the past 5 years.
And the fact is that the list price of a 400 is £72,000, without options or discounts. And the hethel edition (which has most of the pre-carbon tat options list thrown at it is 2k more). And from personal experience you can get close to a 10% discount from dealers on a new lotus and 50/50 finance (which saves another few grand in interest and is subsidised by Lotus). Would you rather the price was 69,995 and you only get a 5% discount and no 50/50? To be frank, if you can't afford 72k (particulary on 50/50) you can't afford it at 68k.
gashead1105 said:
richardaucock said:
Fair do's! But the Evora started life as a £47,500 car in 2009, and seems to be getting ever-more expensive. These options don't answer that concern.
Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
You could say the same about the 911. Of course, you're right, they're just that - options - but how many would rather see Lotus, say, develop a Club Sport-style Evora 400 with a more limited range of options (rather than indulgences such as titanium cans) and a price starting with a '6'?
Actually, pretty much every new car has got a lot more expensive in the past 5 years.
And the fact is that the list price of a 400 is £72,000, without options or discounts. And the hethel edition (which has most of the pre-carbon tat options list thrown at it is 2k more). And from personal experience you can get close to a 10% discount from dealers on a new lotus and 50/50 finance (which saves another few grand in interest and is subsidised by Lotus). Would you rather the price was 69,995 and you only get a 5% discount and no 50/50? To be frank, if you can't afford 72k (particulary on 50/50) you can't afford it at 68k.
Lotus does do some tempting finance packages: restricted sales during the recession kept the used parc tight, they told me a few years back, so dealers were able to basically swap Evora a few years old for brand new ones 'for free' - that's how good the RVs were. Tempting!
Turquoise said:
Ignoring the options pricing squabbles, I'm amazed a Porsche 911 Carrera S is only 45kg heavier. The Porsche is an all metal body isn't it? What's the Evora body made of? I assumed some sorted plastic/composite. Am I wrong?
Yup, I did triple-check it. Unladen weight, Evora: 1,395kg. Unladen weight, 991 S: 1,440kg. Both manual (auto Evora S is 1,407kg vs 1,460kg for 991 S PDK).otolith said:
Most expensive paint colour option for a Porsche 911 : + £3642.00
Most expensive wheel option : + £2186.00
Upgrade from "black leather" to "espresso natural leather" : + £971.00
Or two-tone espresso/cognac : + £1214.00
Upgrade sports seats to sports bucket seats : + £2420.00
"911 Carrera" decal on doors: + £141.00
Change standard taillights to tinted taillights: + £365.00
Trim strips in high gloss finish: + £320.00
Do the black bits of the wing mirrors in body colour: + £303.00
Paint the interior air vents: + £806.00
Choose a different colour for the instrument dials : + £401.00
Choose a different colour for the seat belts : + £275.00
Trim the seat belt buckles with leather : + £405.00
Storage tray lid with a Porsche emblem embossed on it : £155.00
Trim the bottom of the doors in leather: + £680.00
Cosmetic carbon trim for interior: + £1085.00
Change the design of the exhaust trims: £527.00
Honestly, Porsche have already long established that this market is populated by mugs with more money than sense, Lotus would be fools not to jump on the bandwagon.
Carbon fibre floor mats with leather edging is an option.Most expensive wheel option : + £2186.00
Upgrade from "black leather" to "espresso natural leather" : + £971.00
Or two-tone espresso/cognac : + £1214.00
Upgrade sports seats to sports bucket seats : + £2420.00
"911 Carrera" decal on doors: + £141.00
Change standard taillights to tinted taillights: + £365.00
Trim strips in high gloss finish: + £320.00
Do the black bits of the wing mirrors in body colour: + £303.00
Paint the interior air vents: + £806.00
Choose a different colour for the instrument dials : + £401.00
Choose a different colour for the seat belts : + £275.00
Trim the seat belt buckles with leather : + £405.00
Storage tray lid with a Porsche emblem embossed on it : £155.00
Trim the bottom of the doors in leather: + £680.00
Cosmetic carbon trim for interior: + £1085.00
Change the design of the exhaust trims: £527.00
Honestly, Porsche have already long established that this market is populated by mugs with more money than sense, Lotus would be fools not to jump on the bandwagon.
Carbon is light, but leather is heavy, so how does this ying and yang feature make sense?
I'd rather have
NO MATS
No doubt that will be soon an expensive option when you buy your next Porsche blobby fat thing.
richardaucock said:
Impasse said:
richardaucock said:
This! I'm the biggest fan of Lotus but does it quite command Ferrari or Porsche status and would people really not blink when signing an order form for over £86k with these options added on?
The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
But they're options, not compulsions. The buyer can choose whether or not to indulge. All you've done is sneer at the price while conveniently forgetting other marques offer similar components for similar profit making reasons. The wonderful thing about writing for PH is that these discussions can arise in response to news pieces, so I'm genuinely interested to hear more thoughts and opinions. Give me an excuse to go visit Lotus and, if necessary, let them tell me I'm wrong!
Thing is, new car prices seem to have increased way above inflation over that period. I was looking at an R8 recently and the new price for one of those has shot up over a similar period.
I have an S1 Evora N/A with mild fettling (full 2bular exhaust and remap) to produce 320bhp in a 1383kg body. Its an aluminium composite tub with a composite body laid over the top. They have integral cages (as is clearly shown by the bump in the interior roof lining). To be honest i'd get cams, BOE intake and another map to bring it to roughly 380bhp instead of buying another because its so good.
Therein lies the issue.
The Evora is very cleanly styled more in line with the S1 Exiges and Elises than the S2. It's also considerably squat and wide in the flesh.
This is partly because it's something like 4" wider than an Elise/Exige - and based off the same tub - and it drives like a larger one too (except it hides its weight very well), something that other cars in its sector simply can't match regardless of weight and power.
Any excuse for photo whoring:
C_7D6902-HDR by Simon Cox, on Flickr
C_7D6900 by Simon Cox, on Flickr
C_7D6895 by Simon Cox, on Flickr
C_7D6926 by Simon Cox, on Flickr
C_7D6920 by Simon Cox, on Flickr
C_7D6916-HDR by Simon Cox, on Flickr
I'll chuck up my blog link with video etc on it too for those interested: https://britishhorsepower.wordpress.com
It's an unfortunate fact that Lotus get compared to Porsche - because they probably are the closest other manufacturer, even though it really is apples and oranges to a degree. The C4S weight will be down to the inherent advantages that Porsche has access to, but you need to remember that Lotus is unfortunately still a low volume British car manufacturer with limited capability.
Porsche has far greater access to funds (due in part to the fact it is absorbed within a partnership)
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name and multitude of dealerships.
Regarding the ridiculousness of the article - I'm sure if it were a GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!". I'm almost 100% that if i go back to the GT3 articles i'll see exactly that.
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (eg. Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
Therein lies the issue.
The Evora is very cleanly styled more in line with the S1 Exiges and Elises than the S2. It's also considerably squat and wide in the flesh.
This is partly because it's something like 4" wider than an Elise/Exige - and based off the same tub - and it drives like a larger one too (except it hides its weight very well), something that other cars in its sector simply can't match regardless of weight and power.
Any excuse for photo whoring:
C_7D6902-HDR by Simon Cox, on FlickrC_7D6900 by Simon Cox, on FlickrC_7D6895 by Simon Cox, on FlickrC_7D6926 by Simon Cox, on FlickrC_7D6920 by Simon Cox, on FlickrC_7D6916-HDR by Simon Cox, on FlickrI'll chuck up my blog link with video etc on it too for those interested: https://britishhorsepower.wordpress.com
It's an unfortunate fact that Lotus get compared to Porsche - because they probably are the closest other manufacturer, even though it really is apples and oranges to a degree. The C4S weight will be down to the inherent advantages that Porsche has access to, but you need to remember that Lotus is unfortunately still a low volume British car manufacturer with limited capability.
Porsche has far greater access to funds (due in part to the fact it is absorbed within a partnership)
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name and multitude of dealerships.
Regarding the ridiculousness of the article - I'm sure if it were a GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!". I'm almost 100% that if i go back to the GT3 articles i'll see exactly that.
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (eg. Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 19th August 21:25
one problem Lotus have is that existing owners have less need to upgrade than other brands. The alu chassis is holding up very well after 20 years (the later ones even better), drivetrains are Toyota, bodywork becomes an acceptable refurb item (low body more affected by stones). Pork and other owners will have upgraded sooner.
Then someone says "yeah, but they need a new model". Only the Loti still steer, handle and feel like no other car. Your looking at GT Porsche to compete and maccas/ferraris cost a few pennies more.
Good on them for lots of 'new' models. New buyers at this level like lots of bling, so give it to them.
Then someone says "yeah, but they need a new model". Only the Loti still steer, handle and feel like no other car. Your looking at GT Porsche to compete and maccas/ferraris cost a few pennies more.
Good on them for lots of 'new' models. New buyers at this level like lots of bling, so give it to them.
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