Why is Japan not making saloons?

[Slushbox]

"estates just scream "dog owner" to me"

It's a funny thing, I posted elsewhere about a recent trip to Belgium where every third car on the motorway seems to be a black estate. Not a dog in sight.

I don't got a dog, but have a black estate because I occasionally need the 1600 litres rear space for Euro trips. An SUV would have done as well but the estate gets 60 mpg+ on the motorway.

Saloons work for me; three Mercs were nice, but the estate is more practical, though most of the time it's empty.

I haven't seen a Jap. estate I liked, and three months of Avensis ownership felt like rigor mortis. I'd take a new Suburu, but not at UK prices.

[Audemars]

Whilst I think saloons are better looking than hatchbacks, why do people buy them? A 3 series BMW looks a million times better than a 1 series hatchback. The 2 series saloon looks like a deformed midget car.

People buy normal cars for practicality. Whats is the point of a M3 for example? Want a nice car to drive? Buy a Lotus or Porsche or a supercar if money stretches that far. For everthing else buy a cheap SUV, hatchback, estate. Saloons are pointless.

[nunpuncher]

American opinion on vehicle aesthetics should be ignored.

Buying a saloon always seemed a grown up thing to do. I always thought hatchback under 30, saloon over 30. When I grew up I bought a saloon. I hated it. It was way more impractical than I ever imagined (stupid 3 series non folding seats) and the sales rep image bothered me much more than I thought. I stuck with hatchback or estate/tourer now.

[jamieduff1981]

Audemars said:

Whilst I think saloons are better looking than hatchbacks, why do people buy them? A 3 series BMW looks a million times better than a 1 series hatchback. The 2 series saloon looks like a deformed midget car.

People buy normal cars for practicality. Whats is the point of a M3 for example? Want a nice car to drive? Buy a Lotus or Porsche or a supercar if money stretches that far. For everthing else buy a cheap SUV, hatchback, estate. Saloons are pointless.

Lotus - the ideal only car for a man in his late 30s with a wife and 2 children.

[Pints]

Just how often do you use the practicality of a hatch though?

[Catatafish]

skyrover said:

The UK has a weird fetish with hatchbacks that the rest of the world seems to lack.

An Asian street

In asia a saloon is considered to be more manly than smaller cars hence they're a lot more common.

[ModernAndy]

It definitely is us rather than the Japanese manufacturers. I can only comment on my experience but if you go to the middle east you can go into the likes of a Toyota or Nissan dealer and apart from the 4x4's it's nothing but saloons. Stuff we've never heard of like the Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES, Yaris saloon, Nissan Altima, Nissan Sunny saloon, Toyota Aurion and plenty of other examples. Go with full option and there's practically no difference between the top end stuff (they all have leather, sat nav, cruise control, front wheel drive, a 3.5 with around 280bhp and are around the same size) and all the low end stuff is cheap s***e but they are saloons.

[Mr2Mike]

skyrover said:

The UK is the odd one out from a global perspective... that makes us weird

I asked one of my American colleagues why the Yanks don't buy hatchbacks and his response was...

1. They are ugly
2. They look Cheap.
4. They are noiser due to boot being part of cabin space
3. Thieves can access your boot easier

So I guess it's part image, part refinement and part security.

Than again the yanks buy more SUV's than anyone else, so he could be talking bks.

With the possible exception of number 4 (which is oddly placed before number 3) that sounds like the sort of bks someone would come up with to justify buying a worse designed car. Yes, the high end saloons obviously look more upmarket than the average hatchback, but Americans seem to love mediocre Japanese saloons which in no possible way are good or expensive looking.

Security issues are mostly bks as well, once you've broken a window in a saloon you can access the boot release just as you can in a hatchback (unless mediocre Japanese saloons have deadlocks?). Is boot security that much of an issue in the US? They can't all be dragging dead bodies around.

Pints said:

Just how often do you use the practicality of a hatch though?

Regularly, that's one of the reasons I bought one.

[SuperchargedVR6]

Mr2Mike said:

skyrover said:

The UK is the odd one out from a global perspective... that makes us weird

I asked one of my American colleagues why the Yanks don't buy hatchbacks and his response was...

1. They are ugly
2. They look Cheap.
4. They are noiser due to boot being part of cabin space
3. Thieves can access your boot easier

So I guess it's part image, part refinement and part security.

Than again the yanks buy more SUV's than anyone else, so he could be talking bks.

With the possible exception of number 4 (which is oddly placed before number 3) that sounds like the sort of bks someone would come up with to justify buying a worse designed car. Yes, the high end saloons obviously look more upmarket than the average hatchback, but Americans seem to love mediocre Japanese saloons which in no possible way are good or expensive looking.

Security issues are mostly bks as well, once you've broken a window in a saloon you can access the boot release just as you can in a hatchback (unless mediocre Japanese saloons have deadlocks?). Is boot security that much of an issue in the US? They can't all be dragging dead bodies around.

Pints said:

Just how often do you use the practicality of a hatch though?

Regularly, that's one of the reasons I bought one.

Americans seem to like whatever is cheap and can handle missing a service or 5, hence Japanese, because they're reliable.

I've always liked saloons from a rigidity point of view, but they're not practical.

Yeah I use my hatch regularly too. Bikes, ladders, BBQs.....I always seem to shoving loads of crap into the back of it.

[jayemm89]

I *personally* prefer a saloon to a hatchback and an Estate to an SUV.

My reasoning is that if I am putting stuff in the back, I need to hide it under the parcel shelf for insurance reasons (if I am working) as if my work gear was on display it's not insured. This means the boot in a good saloon can be just as big, if not bigger than many hatchbacks.

I live in the countryside and I still don't need an SUV, never have. I've only had one four wheel drive car and that was a 911. Lots of faux-SUV type things around here (Vauxhall Mokka is the most popular). They're useless - all of the downsides of a 4x4 with none of the benefits. My dad had a Range Rover Evoque for a while - my 3 series had a bigger boot. It was useless. It's just a way of throwing away MPG and any hope of performance.

Unfortunately for whatever reason people have convinced themselves they NEED a small 4x4 rather than an estate car, where the latter would almost always serve them much better.

[Audemars]

Simple, estates are too long. Women find them hard to park.

[eltax91]

Because every man needs an estate in his life.

[sparkythecat]

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skyrover said:

The UK is the odd one out from a global perspective... that makes us weird

I asked one of my American colleagues why the Yanks don't buy hatchbacks and his response was...

1. They are ugly
2. They look Cheap.
4. They are noiser due to boot being part of cabin space
3. Thieves can access your boot easier

So I guess it's part image, part refinement and part security.

Than again the yanks buy more SUV's than anyone else, so he could be talking bks.

Ironically, their top selling vehicle is the Ford F series pickup.

[HTP99]

Audemars said:

Simple, estates are too long. Women find them hard to park.

In the grand scheme of things you are talking a few cm's difference, they look longer as the roof line is longer, it's the same with SUV's or crossovers; "oh it's so big I'll never be able to park it" it looks bigger because it is taller, when in fact it isn't really any longer than the equivalent hatch.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Slushbox said:

The SUV fad won't go away. People prefer them to estates (in the UK) as they are 'easier' to park in crowded cities.

Five years ago the motoring pundits including Top Gear were forecasting 50% market penetration for the SUV class, and it looks like they were right.

This year Audi said that they are expecting 50% of all cars they sell by 2020 to be SUV / Crossovers

And after driving Kia Sportage my OH will probably be turning to the dark side as well

[mph1977]

HTP99 said:

Audemars said:

Simple, estates are too long. Women find them hard to park.

In the grand scheme of things you are talking a few cm's difference, they look longer as the roof line is longer, it's the same with SUV's or crossovers; "oh it's so big I'll never be able to park it" it looks bigger because it is taller, when in fact it isn't really any longer than the equivalent hatch.

It often amazes people how small in reality a defender 90 or a classic range rover is when you park them next to normal medium / family car

[HTP99]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Slushbox said:

The SUV fad won't go away. People prefer them to estates (in the UK) as they are 'easier' to park in crowded cities.

Five years ago the motoring pundits including Top Gear were forecasting 50% market penetration for the SUV class, and it looks like they were right.

This year Audi said that they are expecting 50% of all cars they sell by 2020 to be SUV / Crossovers

And after driving Kia Sportage my OH will probably be turning to the dark side as well

SUV's and Crossovers are the fastest growing sector in Europe and have been for a number of years, they are here to stay.

[mph1977]

sparkythecat said:

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skyrover said:

The UK is the odd one out from a global perspective... that makes us weird

I asked one of my American colleagues why the Yanks don't buy hatchbacks and his response was...

1. They are ugly
2. They look Cheap.
4. They are noiser due to boot being part of cabin space
3. Thieves can access your boot easier

So I guess it's part image, part refinement and part security.

Than again the yanks buy more SUV's than anyone else, so he could be talking bks.

Ironically, their top selling vehicle is the Ford F series pickup.

hence a rather polarised market ...

also social factors , a Jetta in the US ' i'm a young professional, i don't need a workman's car ' in the UK it's Richard Bucket ( pronounced bouquet)'s car ...

[RobM77]

Roger Irrelevant said:

Ilovejapcrap said:

I've always felt a saloon is a waste of space may as well have an estate maybe most people are starting to feel that way so no demand ?

Exactly - the surprising thing for me is that they made/sold so many in the past. I'm not the biggest fan of the hatchbacks-on-stilts that are en vogue, but I'd have one of them over a saloon any day, and I'd have an estate over both.

I don't know about other manufacturers, but for BMW the estate 3 series weighs 70-80kg more than the saloon. For the 5 series, it's around 100kg more. If you don't carry things that take up the vertical space, then the extra space is redundant and you pay a penalty with weight. There's also the additional refinement differences of having the rear wheel arches in or out of the cabin for saloon and estate respectively.

It's nice to have the choice depending on what you carry. I have a 3 series saloon and I regularly carry my bike, my cello, my racing stuff (tools, jacks, spares etc), DIY stuff (wood, tools, garden stuff etc) and windsurfing stuff. None of that needs the height of an estate, although my bike would be easier to load in an estate and I'd have a bit more flexibility with my racing stuff. I'm tempted by an estate 3 series for my next car, but it's by no means an obvious decision, even for someone like me who carries stuff around regularly. In short, it depends what you carry.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 22 August 09:48

[V40Vinnie]

eltax91 said:

Because every man needs an estate in his life.

I concur