Spigot rings and spacers conundrum

[FiF]

shakotan said:

FiF said:

shakotan said:

If the PCD of the wheels is the same as the hub, there is no reason to run spigot rings. The spigot merely centres the wheel WHILST doing up the nuts/bolts. The taper on the nuts/bolts do the final centering and provide the clamping force to the hub.

Air cooled Volkwagens don't even have a spigot, so ask your tyre fitter to explain that one away.

The centring on the VW wheels is done by the taper on the nuts and the stud holes.

Some spigot wheels don't have a cup and cone arrangement and use flat captive washers for the clamping force. On these wheels the fit of the spigot and the wheel is very important, less so for wheels with cup and cone fixings.

Suspect that, given conical fixings, then the OP will be ok, considering that car wheel fixings are generally over engineered compared to , say, lorry and bus fittings.

We're talking about a Lexus here, which has never had anything apart from cone seated wheels.

Forgive me but you asked about VW wheels with no spigot and to explain away the centring, which was done. Frankly no personal knowledge of Lexus fittings, and if you'd imparted that gem of wisdom instead of trying to be a smart arse it would have have saved some time. Some vehicles don't have coned fixings, without encyclopaedic knowledge of the fixings on every vehicle all possibilities have to be covered for sake of completeness.

[PhillipM]

HorneyMX5 said:

When was the last time anyone came across wheels with a flat washer set up? I've not seen anything in 20 years of messing with cars that doesn't have tapered nuts/bolts.

Some Peugeot, Citroen and Renaults. Ford, Mitsubishi and VW that are running on the larger 14mm studs/bolts, probably more...

[shakotan]

FiF said:

shakotan said:

FiF said:

shakotan said:

If the PCD of the wheels is the same as the hub, there is no reason to run spigot rings. The spigot merely centres the wheel WHILST doing up the nuts/bolts. The taper on the nuts/bolts do the final centering and provide the clamping force to the hub.

Air cooled Volkwagens don't even have a spigot, so ask your tyre fitter to explain that one away.

The centring on the VW wheels is done by the taper on the nuts and the stud holes.

Some spigot wheels don't have a cup and cone arrangement and use flat captive washers for the clamping force. On these wheels the fit of the spigot and the wheel is very important, less so for wheels with cup and cone fixings.

Suspect that, given conical fixings, then the OP will be ok, considering that car wheel fixings are generally over engineered compared to , say, lorry and bus fittings.

We're talking about a Lexus here, which has never had anything apart from cone seated wheels.

Forgive me but you asked about VW wheels with no spigot and to explain away the centring, which was done. Frankly no personal knowledge of Lexus fittings, and if you'd imparted that gem of wisdom instead of trying to be a smart arse it would have have saved some time. Some vehicles don't have coned fixings, without encyclopaedic knowledge of the fixings on every vehicle all possibilities have to be covered for sake of completeness.

I didn't ask about VW wheels at all. I know how they are centred - via the lugs.

The point I was making is that the OP should ask his idiot tyre fitter a picture of VW wheels and ask HIM to explain how his "weight is taken by the centre spigot" theory weighs up.

[shakotan]

PhillipM said:

HorneyMX5 said:

When was the last time anyone came across wheels with a flat washer set up? I've not seen anything in 20 years of messing with cars that doesn't have tapered nuts/bolts.

Some Peugeot, Citroen and Renaults. Ford, Mitsubishi and VW that are running on the larger 14mm studs/bolts, probably more...

Not in the last 20 or so years though.

[PhillipM]

Really? Because I've just ordered some Shogun wheel nuts and studs a few weeks ago and they're flat seated.
My Peugeot outside has flat seated wheels and that's well under your 20 years old too.

[FiF]

PhillipM said:

Really? Because I've just ordered some Shogun wheel nuts and studs a few weeks ago and they're flat seated.
My Peugeot outside has flat seated wheels and that's well under your 20 years old too.

Precisely, it's not as straightforward as some like to make out.

[shakotan]

PhillipM said:

Really? Because I've just ordered some Shogun wheel nuts and studs a few weeks ago and they're flat seated.
My Peugeot outside has flat seated wheels and that's well under your 20 years old too.

Like this?

[PhillipM]

Similar.

There's a 2012 Avensis outside I'm swapping the rear brakes on. That's on flat nuts too.

[shakotan]

PhillipM said:

Similar.

There's a 2012 Avensis outside I'm swapping the rear brakes on. That's on flat nuts too.

I apologise - you learn something new everyday, and these are not something I've come across.

Anyway, OP is fine with his spacer and taper bolt combo.

[PhillipM]

Yep, just could do with longer studs

[CrutyRammers]

In a somewhat tangential note, any manufacturers who use bolts rather than studs want beating with a tire iron anyway. Total pain in the arse getting the wheel back on.

[anonymous-user]

Ok so the nuts are tapered, I would like to get some longer studs, Is there anywhere online I can order these as I have been looking and drawn a blank, Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Edited by CDB1983 on Thursday 25th August 07:29

[steviegunn]

PhillipM said:

Similar.

There's a 2012 Avensis outside I'm swapping the rear brakes on. That's on flat nuts too.

The Speedline Corse Challenge 5 Spoke alloys fitted to the Evo FQ360 are flat bolts too, I had to buy a special set just to fit them to my Hyundai.

[PositronicRay]

CrutyRammers said:

In a somewhat tangential note, any manufacturers who use bolts rather than studs want beating with a tire iron anyway. Total pain in the arse getting the wheel back on.

Bolts saves wally's putting the nuts on the wrong way, plus easier to change if you have aftermarket wheels.

MB provide this handy tool to help you line everything up.

[CrutyRammers]

PositronicRay said:

CrutyRammers said:

In a somewhat tangential note, any manufacturers who use bolts rather than studs want beating with a tire iron anyway. Total pain in the arse getting the wheel back on.

Bolts saves wally's putting the nuts on the wrong way, plus easier to change if you have aftermarket wheels.

Well the number of times I've needed to change studs for longer ones (once) is far outweighed in the PITA stakes by the number of times I've needed to put a wheel back on (many, many, many times).
So, the tire iron it is I think.

[corozin]

You really need to get the correct spigot rings on there. Contrary to what one poster wrote above it is the hub, not the bolts, that take the weight of the car (or they should do) and you need the wheels nicely up to the hub to achieve that. The bolts are mostly there to pull the wheel onto the hub so that can function properly.

Talk to a tyre fitters if you don't believe me. Failure to use the correct spigots when required will put a lot of duress on the bolts and that usually results in the bolts failing when you least want them to, like during cornering...

[jkh112]

Close the thread. Definitive answer from Wikipedia ( so it must be true! )
'The centerbore of a wheel is the size of the hole in the back of the wheel that centers it over the mounting hub of the car. Some factory wheels have a centerbore that matches exactly with the hub to reduce vibration by keeping the wheel centered. Wheels with the correct centerbore to the car they will be mounted on are known as hubcentric. Hubcentric wheels take the stress off the lug nuts, reducing the job of the lug nuts to center the wheel to the car. Wheels that are not hubcentric are known as lugcentric, as the job of centering is done by the lug nuts assuming they are properly torqued down.

Centerbore on aftermarket wheels must be equal to or greater than that of the hub, otherwise the wheel cannot be mounted on the car. Many aftermarket wheels come with "hubcentric rings" that lock or slide into the back of the wheel to adapt a wheel with a larger centerbore to a smaller hub.[3] These adapters are usually made of plastic but also in aluminum. Plastic rings only provide initial centering, but are not strong enough to help support the wheel in case of high speed pot hole hit. Steel ring is strongest, and aluminum is medium'

[227bhp]

HorneyMX5 said:

You're tyre fitter is incorrect. The spigot on the hub carries zero load, if it did why would they make spigot rings out of cheap plastic? It is there purely to help with centralizing the wheel when fitting it. You're wheel is held on by the frictional grip between the hub fave and wheel face generated by doing up the wheel nuts. There are plenty of OE set ups around with no spigot and they locate using the wheel nuts. This is why you should always do wheel nuts up in a diagonal pattern.

Spacers look fine, you are probably right on the edge of what I would be comfortable with regards stud length. I've run and friends also run plenty of race cars with no spigot rings and wheel spacers with zero issues. Just make sure you use the torque settings. nuts and do things up in the correct manner.

You are Grammar is as terrible as you are advice.

corozin said:

You really need to get the correct spigot rings on there. Contrary to what one poster wrote above it is the hub, not the bolts, that take the weight of the car (or they should do) and you need the wheels nicely up to the hub to achieve that. The bolts are mostly there to pull the wheel onto the hub so that can function properly.

Talk to a tyre fitters if you don't believe me. Failure to use the correct spigots when required will put a lot of duress on the bolts and that usually results in the bolts failing when you least want them to, like during cornering...

Is the correct answer.
How do I know for sure? Well I proved it when a wheel fell off after shearing the 4 studs holding it on.
At first I couldn't work out how on earth it had happened, then I turned the wheel over and noticed the spigot ring was missing....
I'd picked up the wheel earlier and fitted it to my car, unseen by me the ring had dropped out, because i'd pushed the wheel onto the studs I hadn't noticed it was missing as it didn't slop around. Tapered nuts too.

My advice? If it had a very precise fitting centre then keep it that way or risk losing a wheel.

shakotan said:

If the PCD of the wheels is the same as the hub, there is no reason to run spigot rings. The spigot merely centres the wheel WHILST doing up the nuts/bolts. The taper on the nuts/bolts do the final centering and provide the clamping force to the hub.

Air cooled Volkwagens don't even have a spigot, so ask your tyre fitter to explain that one away.

Air cooled VWs don't produce enough power to break a matchstick let alone wheel bolts, that aside look at the PCD of those compared to a modern car fitted with tight fitting centres, two piece wheels and discs & bells - big clue there for you.

[HorneyMX5]

Well yes my gramerz is not amaze balls. Sorry.

Anyway. We can argue all day on the internet about this and it'll just go round in circles. I don't use them based on years of experience and knowledge gained from friends who are qualified motorsport engineers who are involved in peddling cars round race circuits all over Europe.

[CrutyRammers]

227bhp said:

<STUFF>

That's not proof fella, that's just an anecdote where you have assumed a cause.

A bolted joint is held together by friction between the mating surfaces. This friction is caused by the bolts pulling the surfaces together. That's all. Nothing "hangs" on the bolts or the centre spigot once it's all tightened correctly.

There are wheel setups where the centre spigot takes the load. Wheels with single centre bolts (knock-offs), for example in F1. In those cases there is a massive, and importantly, tapered, central hub which runs the entire width of the wheel centre section. Not 3mm of plastic ring.