Spigot rings and spacers conundrum
Discussion
PhillipM said:
227bhp said:
What when the wheel is fitted? It's tight then.
No it's not, they're not tapered, so it can't take the gap up.The centres on my car are very slightly taped so they tighten up as they go on.
If they did then your wheel would rock on the centre and run a chance of not mating up true to the mounting flange. A chamfer at the bottom != a taper.
And just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it's not there, it only needs to be 0.05-0.1mmclearance so you can slide the wheel on. It's still clearance though - in order to have a wheel fit on the spigot tight enough to take load you would have to press the wheel onto the hub, or shrink fit it with heat.
And just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it's not there, it only needs to be 0.05-0.1mmclearance so you can slide the wheel on. It's still clearance though - in order to have a wheel fit on the spigot tight enough to take load you would have to press the wheel onto the hub, or shrink fit it with heat.
227bhp said:
It isn't taking all of the load, I never claimed it was. They are all working together to hold the wheel in place.
I proved it by removing a ring, have four studs shear off whilst driving and the wheel falling off. If the spigots had been fitted it wouldn't have happened.
AHA! But I did over 30000 miles on a car with no spigot rings and at least a 3mm gap all around the CB, and no wheels ever fell off. Therefore, in my equally representative sample, I'm going to say with equal confidence to you that there's zero chance of a wheel falling off a car without a snug-as-a-bug wheel CB.I proved it by removing a ring, have four studs shear off whilst driving and the wheel falling off. If the spigots had been fitted it wouldn't have happened.
What is this, primary school statistical analysis?
Edited by FD3Si on Friday 26th August 12:10
FD3Si said:
AHA! But I did over 30000 miles on a car with no spigot rings and at least a 3mm gap all around the CB, and no wheels ever fell off. Therefore, in my equally representative sample, I'm going to say with equal confidence to you that there's zero chance of a wheel falling off a car without a snug-as-a-bug wheel CB.
What is this, primary school statistical analysis?
Can I add to that statistical analysis then and say I put 260bhp and 10G shock loads through that rubbish Beetle system with no spigot rings detailed above for several years and wheels never fell off. Even when the suspension arms got ripped out.What is this, primary school statistical analysis?
They're there to centre the wheel. Too much runout can cause failure (but more likely to shake yer teeth out first).
I think a lot of people underestimate how much force a bolt applies - even the common M12 fine threaded bolts are putting somewhere around 5 tonnes of force on the wheel to clamp it to the hub. Each.
On something like a Shogun wheel/hub (just because I've calculated that one recently), you're clamping the faces together with 45 tonnes of force even accounting for bolt friction.
Your 2mm spigot is going to have issues transmitting that...
Edited by PhillipM on Friday 26th August 12:21
I just asked my Dad (no really) (45 years a motor engineer including mechanic to a Formula 1 team and a Le Mans race team in the 1960s)
He says the spigot does not need to be in contact with the wheel. It is an aid to correct fitment of the wheel.
For me at least, the matter is settled
Meanwhile the OP is either out enjoying a drive on his (lovely) new wheels, or on the hard shoulder somewhere, minus a wheel
He says the spigot does not need to be in contact with the wheel. It is an aid to correct fitment of the wheel.
For me at least, the matter is settled
Meanwhile the OP is either out enjoying a drive on his (lovely) new wheels, or on the hard shoulder somewhere, minus a wheel
These, or something similar would work
I use these with my Enkei alloys on my Golf
my wheels are et45 and caught on the caliper ... 5mm spacer was enough to clear the caliper (et40 still OK in a VW)
Green bit is alloy and inside diameter of 57.1mm (VW spigot or "centrebore")
Outside diameter is 73.1mm
73.1mm is the bore size off quite a few aftermarket wheels
Usually you'd use a plastic spigot ring to take it down to the 57.1mm needed on a VW
The green bit replaces that plasic spigot ring
Search for "5mm PAIR Black Hub Centric 57.1mm 4 / 5 hole Spacers Audi Seat Skoda Volkswagen" on eBay and look at there other items ... there maybe something of use to you there ... or maybe something you could modify
You will need longer studs pressing into your hubs ... I just needed longer bolts
I use these with my Enkei alloys on my Golf
my wheels are et45 and caught on the caliper ... 5mm spacer was enough to clear the caliper (et40 still OK in a VW)
Green bit is alloy and inside diameter of 57.1mm (VW spigot or "centrebore")
Outside diameter is 73.1mm
73.1mm is the bore size off quite a few aftermarket wheels
Usually you'd use a plastic spigot ring to take it down to the 57.1mm needed on a VW
The green bit replaces that plasic spigot ring
Search for "5mm PAIR Black Hub Centric 57.1mm 4 / 5 hole Spacers Audi Seat Skoda Volkswagen" on eBay and look at there other items ... there maybe something of use to you there ... or maybe something you could modify
You will need longer studs pressing into your hubs ... I just needed longer bolts
227bhp said:
CrutyRammers said:
227bhp said:
A ring held tightly in between an inner and an outer with no gaps is a very strong joint. Think about it, if it's trapped in tight where does the material go to to cause a failure? It can't. If it was a loose fit that is when it would fail.
If it's tight, how is the wheel moving in relation to the hub surface in the first place?You think that a couple of mm of ally or plastic spigot is taking all of the side loads which hit a wheel, seriously?
I proved it by removing a ring, have four studs shear off whilst driving and the wheel falling off. If the spigots had been fitted it wouldn't have happened.
SonicShadow said:
HorneyMX5 said:
When was the last time anyone came across wheels with a flat washer set up? I've not seen anything in 20 years of messing with cars that doesn't have tapered nuts/bolts.
Most Toyota's use flat seat nuts with washers on OE wheels.EDIT- https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-90942-01062-Hub-Axle...
Edited by SonicShadow on Friday 26th August 12:02
HorneyMX5 said:
Happy to stand corrected but it's not a very common fitting. The majority of consumer vehicles built in the last 30 years have tapered nuts or bolts.
It's an unusual fitment, certainly.As it happens, that exact part in the link is the nuts the OP's car would have had on the OE wheels - http://www.japan-parts.eu/?part=90942-01062&re...
There's also this wheel nut that's used on many models - http://www.japan-parts.eu/?part=90942-01007&re... - which is a standard tapered nut. So I guess it must depend on what wheels are fitted for some models.
Edited by SonicShadow on Friday 26th August 13:26
HorneyMX5 said:
SonicShadow said:
HorneyMX5 said:
When was the last time anyone came across wheels with a flat washer set up? I've not seen anything in 20 years of messing with cars that doesn't have tapered nuts/bolts.
Most Toyota's use flat seat nuts with washers on OE wheels.EDIT- https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-90942-01062-Hub-Axle...
Edited by SonicShadow on Friday 26th August 12:02
Cheers for all the replys!
I chucked some spigot rings on for good measure as they cost pennys, The fact they are thin hollow plastic confirms to me that they aren't load bearing at all as HorneyMx5 said to start with.
It seems that theres so much misinformation out there including from professionals who should really know better, (Tyre fitters namely)
Anyway as an update, I can get 7.5 turns on each bolt, I've ordered some longer studs to be on the safe side as I use this car for long distance stuff and want to avoid any issues.
So far i've driven to Warsaw and back from Poznan to pick someone up from the airport, so around 300 miles.
Invested in a torque wrench and torqued all the bolts up to 120nm when I first fitted the wheels and then checked them this morning after 300 miles and they are all still up to torque
I even gave the car a polish
I'm pretty happy with how it looks and again thank you all for your input!
I chucked some spigot rings on for good measure as they cost pennys, The fact they are thin hollow plastic confirms to me that they aren't load bearing at all as HorneyMx5 said to start with.
It seems that theres so much misinformation out there including from professionals who should really know better, (Tyre fitters namely)
Anyway as an update, I can get 7.5 turns on each bolt, I've ordered some longer studs to be on the safe side as I use this car for long distance stuff and want to avoid any issues.
So far i've driven to Warsaw and back from Poznan to pick someone up from the airport, so around 300 miles.
Invested in a torque wrench and torqued all the bolts up to 120nm when I first fitted the wheels and then checked them this morning after 300 miles and they are all still up to torque
I even gave the car a polish
I'm pretty happy with how it looks and again thank you all for your input!
For turns on the nut, a good approximation of the minimum amount of turns is the thread engagement should be more than the width of the stud. So for Toyota / Lexus, that's 12mm. To work out how many turns that is, divide by pitch, which is 1.5mm. 12mm / 1.5mm = 8 minimum. Personally I would err on the side of safety and want more than that.
Camoradi said:
That looks great. Is it lowered a little, or are the wheels a little bigger than standard?
Thank you Standard wheels are 18" 7j these are 19" 8j so they sit a bit more flush with the arches, The standard ones are very set back and look a little lost in the huge wheel arches.
Air suspension failed a month after buying it, (Well one corner did) so decided to go for Coilovers as a way of future proofing the car a little bit especially given the cost of replacement air struts (800 GBP a corner) and the state of roads here in Poland. I still have the 3 remaining struts in the basement and the compressor and airlines are all still in tact on the car.
I think its sitting around 40mm lower than standard at the front and 60mm lower on the rear they seem to have huge arch gaps from the factory. Still rides comfortably though although not as soft as it should be.
SonicShadow said:
For turns on the nut, a good approximation of the minimum amount of turns is the thread engagement should be more than the width of the stud. So for Toyota / Lexus, that's 12mm. To work out how many turns that is, divide by pitch, which is 1.5mm. 12mm / 1.5mm = 8 minimum. Personally I would err on the side of safety and want more than that.
I've ordered the longer studs as with things like this its always best to be safer Hopefully they will turn up next weekGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff