Tesla P100D 0-60 in 2.5s
Discussion
CaptainCosworth said:
How else would you finance them? A major selling point of EV's is the low cost of charging them, so I can't see how anyone would make their money back after installing 1000's of charging points (at least not very quickly)
You'd charge people for the convenience of using them. Or you'd do it to drive custom to your site. They're not massively expensive things to install.CaptainCosworth said:
How else would you finance them? A major selling point of EV's is the low cost of charging them, so I can't see how anyone would make their money back after installing 1000's of charging points (at least not very quickly)
Interesting question. They're not dreadfully expensive things to install, it's something of the order of £5k per charging point assuming a viable electricity supply to the site is already in place (which it generally is for residential installations because of street lighting). If you assume something like 100% mark-up on the electricity (which I think would be viable while demand is rising fast enough to out-strip supply) that would be about £5 profit per charge so you're only looking at 200 charges to pay for installation. I suppose maintenance would eat into that so say a year to enter the black, beyond which you just need to keep the things working and any mark-up beyond that is profit.
High speed charging at places like motorway service stations and supermarkets would be more expensive to install but would also generate significantly higher revenue; you could probably get 10 charges a day out of that sort of installation.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 14:14
ex1 said:
In the UK there will be more charging stations than petrol stations by 2020. In 10 years your average EV family hatch will have a better range than most ICE cars and will come with wireless charging. The tech is moving at an incredibly fast pace.
Stop with the wireless charging. It is staggeringly inefficient, and at the sort of power we are talking about will fry anything that walks between the car and the charger. A 7kW radio transmitter is a chunky beast to have anywhere near your house. Actually it will be a 14kW transmitter because 50% will be lost to heat....
kambites said:
CaptainCosworth said:
How else would you finance them? A major selling point of EV's is the low cost of charging them, so I can't see how anyone would make their money back after installing 1000's of charging points (at least not very quickly)
Interesting question. They're not dreadfully expensive things to install, it's something of the order of £5k per charging point assuming a viable electricity supply to the site is already in place (which it generally is for residential installations because of street lighting). If you assume something like 100% mark-up on the electricity (which I think would be viable while demand is rising fast enough to out-strip supply) that would be about £5 profit per charge so you're only looking at 200 charges to pay for installation. I suppose maintenance would eat into that so say a year to enter the black, beyond which you just need to keep the things working and any mark-up beyond that is profit.
High speed charging at places like motorway service stations and supermarkets would be more expensive to install but would also generate significantly higher revenue; you could probably get 10 charges a day out of that sort of installation.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 14:14
CaptainCosworth said:
It would still cost billions to roll out nationwide. Yes, larger retailers could (and probably will) make the investment when market forces dictate because they can afford it. That still leaves plenty of public car parks which would require government money.
100% wrong.We don't need random public charging points.
Sure, it would be nice and would help speed up adoption for the really dim witted who can't work out what they actually use their car for, but it won't stop mass adoption.
otolith said:
I think as demand grows, supply will too, at least at retail outlets where the presence of a charging point becomes a reason for choosing that site to do your shopping.
Absolutely, it takes longer to charge the car, but if you are shopping anyway it saves the trip to the petrol station, just plug it in where you dump itCaptainCosworth said:
It would still cost billions to roll out nationwide. Yes, larger retailers could (and probably will) make the investment when market forces dictate because they can afford it. That still leaves plenty of public car parks which would require government money.
I don't think public car parks need them; at least not in the near future. I don't think it's really going to be viable to own an EV and charge it primarily away from home (or possibly work) for a very long time. IMO public charging points need to remain the exception not the norm for decades yet if EVs are going to work. Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 14:57
kambites said:
CaptainCosworth said:
It would still cost billions to roll out nationwide. Yes, larger retailers could (and probably will) make the investment when market forces dictate because they can afford it. That still leaves plenty of public car parks which would require government money.
I don't think public car parks need them; at least not in the near future. I don't think it's really going to be viable to own an EV and charge it primarily away from home (or possibly work) for a very long time. IMO public charging points need to remain the exception not the norm for decades yet if EVs are going to work. Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 14:57
CaptainCosworth said:
Which is why EV's will be limited to people who can charge at home, therefore millions of people will keep buying ICE vehicles for decades.
Yup, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. A few people may be able to run them without home charging facilities, but I think for the short-term future that will be the exception not the norm. Even when it starts to change, it'll be commercial chargers on residential streets not public car parks which are first to pick up the load. About half of UK drivers have off-street parking and of those that don't, a large proportion will be able to regularly park at the same spot on the street. That's plenty of market share for EVs to tap into for the foreseeable future before they have to worry about the minority who need to do the majority of their charging away from home.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 15:12
rxe said:
Stop with the wireless charging.
It is staggeringly inefficient, and at the sort of power we are talking about will fry anything that walks between the car and the charger. A 7kW radio transmitter is a chunky beast to have anywhere near your house. Actually it will be a 14kW transmitter because 50% will be lost to heat....
Radio?? It is staggeringly inefficient, and at the sort of power we are talking about will fry anything that walks between the car and the charger. A 7kW radio transmitter is a chunky beast to have anywhere near your house. Actually it will be a 14kW transmitter because 50% will be lost to heat....
There is already a wireless EV charging system available in the US called Plugless, it uses inductive power transfer, like a toothbrush.
It's apparently 12% less efficient than a cable.
rxe said:
ex1 said:
In the UK there will be more charging stations than petrol stations by 2020. In 10 years your average EV family hatch will have a better range than most ICE cars and will come with wireless charging. The tech is moving at an incredibly fast pace.
Stop with the wireless charging. It is staggeringly inefficient, and at the sort of power we are talking about will fry anything that walks between the car and the charger. A 7kW radio transmitter is a chunky beast to have anywhere near your house. Actually it will be a 14kW transmitter because 50% will be lost to heat....
They have had wireless charging for EV buses for some time. 120kw seems to be the norm.
Close-coupled wireless charging can work but forcing the sort of positional alignment it requires arguably removes most of the advantages that wireless charging brings. It's a mild convenience boost for charging in your garage but bugger all use (at the moment at least) for street parking in situations where it's not viable to run a cable.
CaptainCosworth said:
Which is why EV's will be limited to people who can charge at home, therefore millions of people will keep buying ICE vehicles for decades.
Which is what everyone has been saying all along.Once again, no one is arguing that EVERY SINGLE CAR WILL BE AN EV.
The UK Car Parc is around 32m. So 90% still leaves 3m poor sods stuck in the dark ages as you point out.
kambites said:
CaptainCosworth said:
Which is why EV's will be limited to people who can charge at home, therefore millions of people will keep buying ICE vehicles for decades.
Yup, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. A few people may be able to run them without home charging facilities, but I think for the short-term future that will be the exception not the norm. Even when it starts to change, it'll be commercial chargers on residential streets not public car parks which are first to pick up the load. About half of UK drivers have off-street parking and of those that don't, a large proportion will be able to regularly park at the same spot on the street. That's plenty of market share for EVs to tap into for the foreseeable future before they have to worry about the minority who need to do the majority of their charging away from home.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 15:12
)On that basis I can't see EV's taking a big share of the market. My original post said perhaps 50% in 30 years, but the more I think about it the more optimistic that sounds. I'm not anti EV, it's just my opinion.
(I should also apologise for my original post where I wrote about them 'taking over'. I meant whether they'd become as popular as ICE vehicles, but worded it poorly)
CaptainCosworth said:
Yes, I agree to some extent. But even if half (???) of drivers have off road parking not all will want to buy an EV. And a lot of them still won't be able to install a charge point (can't afford it/landlord won't let them/etc). Reading other threads this site I would disagree that a large proportion can regularly park in the same spot (at least without the assistance of wheelie bin or 'borrowed' cones )
Well yes that's rather my point, you're basing it on "this site" which is enormously London- (and to a lesser extent generally city-) centric. About a third of the UK population live in "major cities" and the majority of them will live in outer-suburbia where land prices don't make off-street parking prohibitive. Of those households who own two cars, the huge majority will not be city-centre dwellers. )Look solely at those households who have two cars and the skew shifts even further away from city-centre dwellers. The majority will live in "leafy suburbia" or smaller towns/villages.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th August 16:26
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