Nimitz carrier in WW11
Discussion
Another one along the lines of 'What if?' prompted by a film/stupid reply I made to another thread on here. Imagine a Nimitz class carrier appears bang in the middle of the Pacific mid 1942 and the crew recognize what's happened. They are fully supplied and can use all their weapons till they run out, when they return to the present. What could they do to most help the Allied war effort, in any theatre of combat. No nukes allowed.
They would have a great ship in the middle of the ocean with no planes to fly from it! Lol or are you saying there would be aircraft in it as well?
If there were plans on there then I would send it ship hunting. Probably not going to be much use in terms of bombing islands and supporting troops but would make a good carrier / big ship hunter. Super hornets with 2 harpoons each could do a fair old bit of damage to even a carrier. Or just let them drop laser guided bombs onto the ships.
If there were plans on there then I would send it ship hunting. Probably not going to be much use in terms of bombing islands and supporting troops but would make a good carrier / big ship hunter. Super hornets with 2 harpoons each could do a fair old bit of damage to even a carrier. Or just let them drop laser guided bombs onto the ships.
I'm always mystified by the references to World War Eleven I keep seeing. Doesn't anybody understand Roman numerals anymore?
On the topic itself, I always liked "The Final Countdown", mainly because it features US Navy aircraft in the bright colours and markings they carried up until the early 1980s. By the time "Top Gun" was filmed (about six years later), the Navy had switched to far duller and drabber markings.
On the topic itself, I always liked "The Final Countdown", mainly because it features US Navy aircraft in the bright colours and markings they carried up until the early 1980s. By the time "Top Gun" was filmed (about six years later), the Navy had switched to far duller and drabber markings.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 24th August 13:00
John Birmingham's book Weapons of Choice had this situation, but a whole battle group of multi-national ships being transported back to WW2 Pacific. Suffice to say modern weapons made light work of the Japanese attackers, as well as the US Naval forces who also attacked them initially. It only lasted as long as they had supplies and ammunition though.
For this answer, read "The Axis of Time" trilogy by John Birmingham.
When I started reading the first book, I immediately ordered the other two and couldn't stop until I had finished all three!
Synopsis here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Time
When I started reading the first book, I immediately ordered the other two and couldn't stop until I had finished all three!
Synopsis here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Time
Other than the John Birmingham books (which uses futuristic ships not Nimitz era) there's another good series from the Russian POV called the Kirov Saga by John Schettler using a Kirov class BattleCruiser from 2020 which keeps bouncing backwards/forwards in time.
Silly question for the OP but, as the Nimitz has been around for a very long time, which "modification state" is the Nimitz (Vietnam, Gulf war, Modern etc) as it effects some of the tasks it can perform?
Anyway, as a single US CV doesn't carry enough non-nuclear weaponry to substantially alter a ground war (if attacking the front lines), personally I'd concentrate my alpha strikes on the IJN carrier force before swapping to either -
1. A long range land attack on various HQ's in Japan looking to decapitate the leadership, although I'm not sure that the intel would be good enough in the history books to be able to pin-point a HQ and the Nimitz doesn't carry any ELINT aircraft in it's modern fit (used to be the ES-3 in the '80s-90s).
2. Attacking POL (fuel) facilities, which were a constant source of problems for the Japanese.
3. Attacking Harbours and Docks on the Japanese Mainland to prevent any more ships being built.
TBH, once the IJN Carrier fleet was knocked out by the Allies In Real Life they had a substantially easier time in the pacific than before so, in the Nimitz timeline, once those carriers are gone earlier, the Nimitz wouldn't really have to do anything else but stand back and let nature take it's course as, post '42 Japan was guaranteed to lose anyway and never held any strategic surprise again.
As an aside, I love military "what if's" and my kindle has dozens of titles dedicated to the genre.
'edit'
Harpoons wouldn't be as effective against WW2 Cruisers & Battleships as they are much more heavily armoured than current ships, especially at the waterline, as the armour was designed to defeat AP rounds fired by 8in to 16in cannons with much more explosive power than a single harpoon. Ideally you'd set the Harpoons attack profile to be a "pop-up" so the missile dived down on to the less armoured deck and tried to punch through as man armoured decks as possible but even that doesn't guarantee a kill. Instead, it'd be preferable to use 2000lb LGB's on the capital ships (aimed at destroying the turrets) and use the ASM's on less armoured targets like Carriers, Destroyers, Merchant shipping etc
Silly question for the OP but, as the Nimitz has been around for a very long time, which "modification state" is the Nimitz (Vietnam, Gulf war, Modern etc) as it effects some of the tasks it can perform?
Anyway, as a single US CV doesn't carry enough non-nuclear weaponry to substantially alter a ground war (if attacking the front lines), personally I'd concentrate my alpha strikes on the IJN carrier force before swapping to either -
1. A long range land attack on various HQ's in Japan looking to decapitate the leadership, although I'm not sure that the intel would be good enough in the history books to be able to pin-point a HQ and the Nimitz doesn't carry any ELINT aircraft in it's modern fit (used to be the ES-3 in the '80s-90s).
2. Attacking POL (fuel) facilities, which were a constant source of problems for the Japanese.
3. Attacking Harbours and Docks on the Japanese Mainland to prevent any more ships being built.
TBH, once the IJN Carrier fleet was knocked out by the Allies In Real Life they had a substantially easier time in the pacific than before so, in the Nimitz timeline, once those carriers are gone earlier, the Nimitz wouldn't really have to do anything else but stand back and let nature take it's course as, post '42 Japan was guaranteed to lose anyway and never held any strategic surprise again.
As an aside, I love military "what if's" and my kindle has dozens of titles dedicated to the genre.
'edit'
Harpoons wouldn't be as effective against WW2 Cruisers & Battleships as they are much more heavily armoured than current ships, especially at the waterline, as the armour was designed to defeat AP rounds fired by 8in to 16in cannons with much more explosive power than a single harpoon. Ideally you'd set the Harpoons attack profile to be a "pop-up" so the missile dived down on to the less armoured deck and tried to punch through as man armoured decks as possible but even that doesn't guarantee a kill. Instead, it'd be preferable to use 2000lb LGB's on the capital ships (aimed at destroying the turrets) and use the ASM's on less armoured targets like Carriers, Destroyers, Merchant shipping etc
Edited by IanH755 on Wednesday 24th August 14:44
paul_y3k said:
How about sailing it straight to America and reap the technology ?
Surely the use of it's radar's alone would be massively beneficial ?
Sailing back to harbour would be a waste and would take too long.Surely the use of it's radar's alone would be massively beneficial ?
fly out some guys from Manhattan project to inspect the nuclear power plant
fly out a few other beards to inspect equipment in place
maybe sacrifice 1 or 2 jets / helicopters to be taken apart and researched
other than that.. stay alive, and go full offensive! im sure the carriers have a few tomahawks on board.
Also.. every Nimitz class carrier is permanently shadowed by a Hunter Killer Sub ( los angeles ? ) is it possible that it my be caught in the time vortex with the carrier ?
Edited by SystemParanoia on Wednesday 24th August 13:59
IanH755 said:
Other than the John Birmingham books (which uses futuristic ships not Nimitz era) there's another good series from the Russian POV called the Kirov Saga by John Schettler using a Kirov class BattleCruiser from 2020 which keeps bouncing backwards/forwards in time.
Silly question for the OP but, as the Nimitz has been around for a very long time, which "modification state" is the Nimitz (Vietnam, Gulf war, Modern etc) as it effects some of the tasks it can perform?
Anyway, as a single US CV doesn't carry enough non-nuclear weaponry to substantially alter a ground war (if attacking the front lines), personally I'd concentrate my alpha strikes on the IJN carrier force before swapping to either -
1. A long range land attack on various HQ's in Japan looking to decapitate the leadership, although I'm not sure that the intel would be good enough in the history books to be able to pin-point a HQ and the Nimitz doesn't carry any ELINT aircraft in it's modern fit (used to be the ES-3 in the '80s-90s).
2. Attacking POL facilities, which were a constant source of problems for the Japanese.
3. Attacking Harbours and Docks on the Japanese Mainland to prevent any more ships being built.
TBH, once the IJN Carrier fleet was knocked out by the Allies IRL they had a substantially easier time in the pacific than before so, in the Nimitz timeline, once those carriers are gone earlier, the Nimitz wouldn't really have to do anything else but stand back and let nature take it's course as, post '42 Japan was guaranteed to lose anyway and never held any strategic surprise again.
As an aside, I love military "what if's" and my kindle has dozens of titles dedicated to the genre.
POL?Silly question for the OP but, as the Nimitz has been around for a very long time, which "modification state" is the Nimitz (Vietnam, Gulf war, Modern etc) as it effects some of the tasks it can perform?
Anyway, as a single US CV doesn't carry enough non-nuclear weaponry to substantially alter a ground war (if attacking the front lines), personally I'd concentrate my alpha strikes on the IJN carrier force before swapping to either -
1. A long range land attack on various HQ's in Japan looking to decapitate the leadership, although I'm not sure that the intel would be good enough in the history books to be able to pin-point a HQ and the Nimitz doesn't carry any ELINT aircraft in it's modern fit (used to be the ES-3 in the '80s-90s).
2. Attacking POL facilities, which were a constant source of problems for the Japanese.
3. Attacking Harbours and Docks on the Japanese Mainland to prevent any more ships being built.
TBH, once the IJN Carrier fleet was knocked out by the Allies IRL they had a substantially easier time in the pacific than before so, in the Nimitz timeline, once those carriers are gone earlier, the Nimitz wouldn't really have to do anything else but stand back and let nature take it's course as, post '42 Japan was guaranteed to lose anyway and never held any strategic surprise again.
As an aside, I love military "what if's" and my kindle has dozens of titles dedicated to the genre.
IRL?
(I do know what IJN means
)SystemParanoia - USN Nuclear engineering officers have degree's in Nuclear tech so it'd be better to fly them to the Manhattan guys instead of the other way around. Infact, if you imagine a '40s car mechanic seeing a Tesla vs a '16 car mechanic seeing a Model T it's probably best not to show the 40's guys much as they won't have a basic understanding of it. It'd be better to use the '16 guys as teachers to slowly advance the 40's tech rather than letting the 40's guys try and copy '16 tech.
Tomahawks - Sadly no they don't, they use the air wings as their offensive weaponry.
Eric - Sorry, went all military/internetty again
POL - Petrols, Oils, Lubricants - i.e. Fuel etc
IRL - In Real Life
Tomahawks - Sadly no they don't, they use the air wings as their offensive weaponry.
Eric - Sorry, went all military/internetty again
POL - Petrols, Oils, Lubricants - i.e. Fuel etc
IRL - In Real Life
Edited by IanH755 on Wednesday 24th August 14:09
IanH755 said:
SystemParanoia - USN Nuclear engineering offices have degree's in Nuclear tech so it'd be better to fly them to the Manhattan guys instead of the other way around. Infact, if you imagine a '40s car mechanic seeing a Tesla vs a '16 car mechanic seeing a Model T it's probably best not to show the 40's guys much as they won't have a basic understanding of it. It'd be better to use the '16 guys as teachers to slowly advance the 40's tech rather than letting the 40's guys try and copy '16 tech.
Tomahawks - Sadly no they don't, they use the air wings as their offensive weaponry.
Eric - Sorry, went all military/internetty again
POL - Petrols, Oils, Lubricants - i.e. Fuel etc
IRL - In Real Life
That re-enforces my point about it being a complete waste of resources to ship it back to dry dock!! Tomahawks - Sadly no they don't, they use the air wings as their offensive weaponry.
Eric - Sorry, went all military/internetty again
POL - Petrols, Oils, Lubricants - i.e. Fuel etc
IRL - In Real Life
just ship out the specialists back home to boost the home teams knowledge and keep the fighting war canoe fighting!
i can picture the 40's guys brain having a total meltdown just understanding the concept of a computer that isnt the size of a building!
Edited by SystemParanoia on Wednesday 24th August 14:26
The radar alone would make a huge difference in the pacific or the atlantic. And I imagine they have clever anti submarine tech which would help the atlantic war. In fact, you could sue it purely as a command/intelligence gathering post and control one/two oceans without the enemy ever knowing you are there. Sit feep in the ocean, use radar to keep bvr range to the enemy, directing WW2 era vessels into the attack at dawn.
I expect a simple computer programme would crack the enigma/lorenz codes it would intercept too.
Oddly I doubt it would be very good in offence: The carrier has quite a few aircraft, but there wont be enough for the 100+ aircraft they might face. They might be outm umbdered in a dogfight.
(genuine question) would the missiles recognise the WW2 era fighters? they are the same size as a light aircraaft, are they too small for the missiles to recognise ?
I expect a simple computer programme would crack the enigma/lorenz codes it would intercept too.
Oddly I doubt it would be very good in offence: The carrier has quite a few aircraft, but there wont be enough for the 100+ aircraft they might face. They might be outm umbdered in a dogfight.
(genuine question) would the missiles recognise the WW2 era fighters? they are the same size as a light aircraaft, are they too small for the missiles to recognise ?
That would depend on how advanvced the missle is versus how big a picture the aircraft makes on radar. The Woodern Wonder that is the Mozzie would be harder to pick up on radar than an all metal plane. So any missle fired against the Mozzie will find it harder.
Heatseakers may be better, but the RAF heavies had exhaust shrouds to try and hide the flames at night. They might not be enough however.
Conversely the best chance for the WWII fighter may be to get into a low, slow turning fight. You can see in the youtube clip posted above the F14 almost "fell out of the sky" trying to mix it with the Zero.
Heatseakers may be better, but the RAF heavies had exhaust shrouds to try and hide the flames at night. They might not be enough however.
Conversely the best chance for the WWII fighter may be to get into a low, slow turning fight. You can see in the youtube clip posted above the F14 almost "fell out of the sky" trying to mix it with the Zero.
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