RE: Tesla announces P100D upgrades
Discussion
smilo996 said:
The entire USP for the Tesla, acceleration. Sums it up.
Just put over a ton of batteries shipped from half way round the world in an otherwise completely conventionally designed and built car.
Why not put in 1,5 tons and make it really quick.
In comparison to the i3 this is a Buick from the 70's and deserves the same kind of reputation.
See quite a lot of them here being driven 95% of the time with the driver only and mostly driven very short distances.
Tesla has no chance once the likes of VW Group start flexing their muscles. Especially given that their key supplier, Bosch designs and builds the hybrid systems for both Audi and Porka in the WEC and has just built a modular system for both energy delivery, recovery and management. JLR are racing electric cars and using Williams. MC Laren have Honda who finally are getting to the top of the time sheets in F1. Might be why no one has licensed Tesla's electric tech.
There used to be two electric car manufacturers in the US. Now there is one and it is not profitable.
You do realise you're not allowed to question Tesla? Just put over a ton of batteries shipped from half way round the world in an otherwise completely conventionally designed and built car.
Why not put in 1,5 tons and make it really quick.
In comparison to the i3 this is a Buick from the 70's and deserves the same kind of reputation.
See quite a lot of them here being driven 95% of the time with the driver only and mostly driven very short distances.
Tesla has no chance once the likes of VW Group start flexing their muscles. Especially given that their key supplier, Bosch designs and builds the hybrid systems for both Audi and Porka in the WEC and has just built a modular system for both energy delivery, recovery and management. JLR are racing electric cars and using Williams. MC Laren have Honda who finally are getting to the top of the time sheets in F1. Might be why no one has licensed Tesla's electric tech.
There used to be two electric car manufacturers in the US. Now there is one and it is not profitable.
See the posts above.In many ways, if Musk succeeds in his stated aims (and assuming that is what his actual aims are), then he fails. He wants to make electric cars utterly ubiquitous. The moment he does so, all the other manufacturers with much more experience and resources for producing new vehicles are likely to take over. The whole point of Tesla is that the electric motor and battery aren't actually dramatically innovative (one reason he's so happy to give away patents - there's not really much to protect), but that they only become viable if you can sell at sufficient scale. So the moment he sells at sufficient scale, he's opened up the market to every competitor on the planet.
There is a strong Apple-y smell about Tesla, but they don't seem to have their Jony Ive - all current Teslas are very conventional (and actually getting more conventional as they move to mass market), very conservative, very big and pretty heavy. So I'm not sure how well they'll be able to defend their position of 'electric innovator' once the big guys start launching cars.
The other problem is that the 'scale big' approach Telsa has taken appears to make it very vulnerable to any disruptive technologies. They can't now abandon their gigafactories, so if flow cells, direct hydrocarbon solar panels, multi fuel or any of the other technologies being explored take off, they could be left hanging. The big guys have regularly explored petrol alternatives, but consumers were remarkably resistant to gas turbines, lpg and so on. Now that it's clear consumers are ready for something new, there are quite a few opportunities to create that something new, and it doesn't have to be a Tesla.
We'll see - Musk is a great character and Tesla's goals are noble. I'm pretty convinced that the Model S and Model 3 are going to be nothing more than historical curiosities in the long run though.
Tuna said:
You do realise you're not allowed to question Tesla? See the posts above.
Good idea, when not totally confident in your mental arguments go for the social proof. Ingratiate yourself with someone superior but with the same outlook and hope to create a siege mentality, win the argument with numerical advantage. See the posts above.I prefer the facts, Tesla sell everything they can make and everything Musk starts ends up working, and when it hasn't (Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla) he has figured out how to make it work. Opinions, coulds and mights don't hold much water.
Granted this link was posted on Facebook by Tesla but it seems an honest review how a model S holds up after 100k in a few years: https://medium.com/@SteveSasman/how-i-used-abused-...
mybrainhurts said:
If Musky is relying on battery sales to support his business, he'd better watch out for those pesky Chinese who're developing liquid electricity.
The next battery development will be Lithium Sulphur. Sony are working on commercial batteries by 2020. I'm sure Tesla is working on this too.The Vambo said:
I prefer the facts, Tesla sell everything they can make and everything Musk starts ends up working, and when it hasn't (Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla) he has figured out how to make it work. Opinions, coulds and mights don't hold much water.
Yep VW could make class leading EV's but they dont. Pointless thing to say, especially given tesla's mission. Musk knows he cant make all the cars, but he can force change.VAG group market cap is about $73Bn, so a little over twice Tesla's. Thats not much of a gap given the size and age of the two businesses.
As for its just an ordinary car with batteries and a motor lol wtf did you think it was going to be? its a very well engineered and designed car.
This one is even faster than a Tesla
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=467&am...
http://www.zombie222.com/zombie-specs.html
0-60 in 1.79, and its only 2wd by the looks of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=467&am...
http://www.zombie222.com/zombie-specs.html
0-60 in 1.79, and its only 2wd by the looks of it.
The Vambo said:
Good idea, when not totally confident in your mental arguments go for the social proof. Ingratiate yourself with someone superior but with the same outlook and hope to create a siege mentality, win the argument with numerical advantage.
I prefer the facts, Tesla sell everything they can make and everything Musk starts ends up working, and when it hasn't (Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla) he has figured out how to make it work. Opinions, coulds and mights don't hold much water.
Heh. I'll say again I like Musk and Tesla's goals are noble. That doesn't mean their business is immune to the forces of commerce. Mask (and Tesla) have kick started a huge change in the industry, but that doesn't mean they can ride the wave. Instead of Apple, think of Palm - they introduced and dominated the idea of handheld computing, fought off the incubments and then lost it all when the next thing came along. Unlike Palm, Telsa account for a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of global sales.I prefer the facts, Tesla sell everything they can make and everything Musk starts ends up working, and when it hasn't (Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla) he has figured out how to make it work. Opinions, coulds and mights don't hold much water.
People point to Telsa's huge market cap and compare it to VW as though it's an indicator of how strong they are. It might more accurately judged to be an indicator of how much investors value disruptors - the current darlings of tech stock. The problem I have is that Telsa's position as a disruptor is genuinely precarious. Tell me how Tesla is producing a car that is immune to the output of the company that owns Bugatti, Audi, Porsche and Ducati? Or tell me what you think is preventing Nissan, Honda, Chrysler or a dozen others producing credible rivals now that battery costs are making mid-range cars economic to produce?
I agree Musk is a world class businessman, but each stage of Tesla's growth is a new gamble. They almost went to the wall with the first car, and now with the Model 3 they're entering a completely different segment from the halo models. That's not to wish them ill, just to recognise that they have a hell of a challenge ahead of them.
Being able to produce more batteries cheaper will be the key to the EV market.
The gigafactory will give tesla a real head start.
As I've said before not enough to pull away for ever, but the current makers need to start getting serious now.
And if they do that also achieves musks's goal.
And yes of course its risky starting a mass produced car business. how many other successful examples have we had in the last 30+ years? None...
The gigafactory will give tesla a real head start.
As I've said before not enough to pull away for ever, but the current makers need to start getting serious now.
And if they do that also achieves musks's goal.
And yes of course its risky starting a mass produced car business. how many other successful examples have we had in the last 30+ years? None...
If Musk sees a disruptive aspect to battery tech, he'll acquire it. Failing that, he'll "rent" it from whoever outbids him. One way or another, he'll push things along.
Also, his factory can be reconfigured to push his product, either n or n-1 if the tech moves, into other solutions, eg solar homes with battery support.
His targets arent just the car industry, but also the energy industry. THAT is a market with high barriers to entry, and massive infrastructure, and very little in the way of new entrants.
And finally, if other manufacturers use his own batteries, then he also wins.
Any which way you look at it, he has options.
Also, his factory can be reconfigured to push his product, either n or n-1 if the tech moves, into other solutions, eg solar homes with battery support.
His targets arent just the car industry, but also the energy industry. THAT is a market with high barriers to entry, and massive infrastructure, and very little in the way of new entrants.
And finally, if other manufacturers use his own batteries, then he also wins.
Any which way you look at it, he has options.
The Vambo said:
Tuna said:
You do realise you're not allowed to question Tesla? See the posts above.
Good idea, when not totally confident in your mental arguments go for the social proof. Ingratiate yourself with someone superior but with the same outlook and hope to create a siege mentality, win the argument with numerical advantage. See the posts above.I prefer the facts, Tesla sell everything they can make and everything Musk starts ends up working, and when it hasn't (Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla) he has figured out how to make it work. Opinions, coulds and mights don't hold much water.
Space X works? Clearly you do not read the news.
Tesla is successful? It took them ten years to get to the Model S. it is nothing revolutionary. Tesla is in debt and no one has taken up its "pushing the EV" technology. You cannot even put a roof box on their SUV or park it in a multi storey carpark.
But some people just luuuve anything Americans do.
Tuna said:
Heh. I'll say again I like Musk and Tesla's goals are noble. That doesn't mean their business is immune to the forces of commerce. Mask (and Tesla) have kick started a huge change in the industry, but that doesn't mean they can ride the wave. Instead of Apple, think of Palm - they introduced and dominated the idea of handheld computing, fought off the incubments and then lost it all when the next thing came along. Unlike Palm, Telsa account for a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of global sales.
People point to Telsa's huge market cap and compare it to VW as though it's an indicator of how strong they are. It might more accurately judged to be an indicator of how much investors value disruptors - the current darlings of tech stock. The problem I have is that Telsa's position as a disruptor is genuinely precarious. Tell me how Tesla is producing a car that is immune to the output of the company that owns Bugatti, Audi, Porsche and Ducati? Or tell me what you think is preventing Nissan, Honda, Chrysler or a dozen others producing credible rivals now that battery costs are making mid-range cars economic to produce?
I agree Musk is a world class businessman, but each stage of Tesla's growth is a new gamble. They almost went to the wall with the first car, and now with the Model 3 they're entering a completely different segment from the halo models. That's not to wish them ill, just to recognise that they have a hell of a challenge ahead of them.
Good points well made.People point to Telsa's huge market cap and compare it to VW as though it's an indicator of how strong they are. It might more accurately judged to be an indicator of how much investors value disruptors - the current darlings of tech stock. The problem I have is that Telsa's position as a disruptor is genuinely precarious. Tell me how Tesla is producing a car that is immune to the output of the company that owns Bugatti, Audi, Porsche and Ducati? Or tell me what you think is preventing Nissan, Honda, Chrysler or a dozen others producing credible rivals now that battery costs are making mid-range cars economic to produce?
I agree Musk is a world class businessman, but each stage of Tesla's growth is a new gamble. They almost went to the wall with the first car, and now with the Model 3 they're entering a completely different segment from the halo models. That's not to wish them ill, just to recognise that they have a hell of a challenge ahead of them.
Having said the above though I think you can still admire Musk for pulling the industry along. I would wonder, for example, whether the i8 would exist at all without the Model S.
He seems like a genuine chap and is already a billionaire so it is conceivable that his professed end game of ubiquitous EV (even if Tesla aren't at the forefront of it) can be taken at face value.
Tesla's USP is being an EV that's viable as normal car. Up to now they have been too compromised. The acceleration is just a party piece for the performance models. As to the weight look up the weight of any saloon car of that size. Then look at any big 4wd (which the performance models are).
Are you joking. I know that PH has its followers who just love anything Americans do. Peple buy them because of the extra tax break silly not because they are better than other hybrids on the market. The party piece is the USP. It has nothing else to offer.
It weighs at least a third more than other saloon cars and the SUV is the same. Take a look.
Also if you use the "ludicras mode for more than a couple of mins, look forward to a very very long lunch.
Oil is shipped half way round the world, and you have to keep shipping it every time you fill up. Gigafactory will build them locally, and more factories will be built across the world.
Oil is shipped from Texas. The US is self sufficient. Batteries on the other hand: the ore is very dirty and envionmentally dirty to dig up and refine from Africa and China ( only two nations on the plant have the relevant raw material. It is then refined. Then shipped again to Japan. it is then processed again and made into batteries. These a re then shipped halfway round the world.
The GIGA factory is 500 miles from the nearest port, so all the raw materials will still have to be shipped half way round the world, transported 500 miles and then sent back another 500 miles.
The battery tech Musk is using for the garage battery storage is less efficient than that produced by even Bosch and does not include a converter so it is also more expensive. it does however look nice.
No one has used his vehicle based electric tech either.
But Mericans love them because they are American and because they get a huge tax break. People outside the US like them because they are American and because they get a huge tax break.
If the likes of VW step in and build better EV's to outsell Tesla, then Elon Musk will have achieved what he set out to do. As so one else said, there is no need to licence the technology as its all been free to use.
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Toyota have been building more successful electric cars for years. BMW have gone from nothing to third in three years. Both, nothing really nothing to do with Musk and everything to do with tax breaks.
He is just cashing in on the tax break and adding nothing. Even Fiskers cars were much better looking and still more innovative.
He is a snake oil salesman and some more than others believe the hype. He knows he cannot compete in the long run and is just admitting defeat.
J4CKO said:
VW better hurry up, so far they have slapped an electric motor in a Golf, they are too busy reeling fromt he emissions scandal and the rest dont seem to have a product in the market, not one comparable to the model S, there are the Zoe and the Leaf, decent but a bit of a mundane hatchback, the Volt, only seen one, BMW are are the nearest I reckon but not seen many i3's, fair few i8's but seen loads of Model S's, even if it is based on Kojaks car.
Why was there a NoX scandle? The US customer purchases over 1million sub 20mpg cars per annum. The Americans have never liked Diesel and the NoX from the 1% of diesels sold each year as compared to those sub 20 mpg petrol cars is nothing. Another punitive attack on foireign companies. If VW were reeling, then why are global sales up this year? it has revenue of 220bn per annum and being German, thinks long term. It has hardly made a dent.
Not sure why you would expect a Tesla driver to carry more people than the average car and not do short journies, that is just what people do with cars generally.
Not with executive cars. That is the entire point of them. To carry four people in luxury and to be driven by executives who are busy and drive long distances. Try looking up lease rules for exec cars. It is just about the tax break and how people indulge in buying over sized cars they do not need. The whole idea of moving from fossil fuelled cars is efficiency and innovation, well except of course if you are American.
The car is fairly conventional apart from the electronics and packaging, was it meant to look like a spacecraft ? it is an electric motor(s), batteries and all the normal stuff, don't think anyone else is doing much different ?
There is nothing like belief as a replacement for facts. The i3 uses a bonded (recycled) plastic tub and carbon fibre tub. it is produced in the US using Hydro electric power. But you are right no one in the US is doing anything different than they have ever done.
Not profitable, yet, however I don't think the main manufacturers are exactly raking it in, they had bailouts not that long ago.
No you are right again. JLR is making more money that it ever has. VW's sales are up this year and make about 10% margin which for any business is pretty good. BMW sales are also up and the i3 has gone from nothing to 3rd in the US in 3 years. Why was there a NoX scandle? The US customer purchases over 1million sub 20mpg cars per annum. The Americans have never liked Diesel and the NoX from the 1% of diesels sold each year as compared to those sub 20 mpg petrol cars is nothing. Another punitive attack on foireign companies. If VW were reeling, then why are global sales up this year? it has revenue of 220bn per annum and being German, thinks long term. It has hardly made a dent.
Not sure why you would expect a Tesla driver to carry more people than the average car and not do short journies, that is just what people do with cars generally.
Not with executive cars. That is the entire point of them. To carry four people in luxury and to be driven by executives who are busy and drive long distances. Try looking up lease rules for exec cars. It is just about the tax break and how people indulge in buying over sized cars they do not need. The whole idea of moving from fossil fuelled cars is efficiency and innovation, well except of course if you are American.
The car is fairly conventional apart from the electronics and packaging, was it meant to look like a spacecraft ? it is an electric motor(s), batteries and all the normal stuff, don't think anyone else is doing much different ?
There is nothing like belief as a replacement for facts. The i3 uses a bonded (recycled) plastic tub and carbon fibre tub. it is produced in the US using Hydro electric power. But you are right no one in the US is doing anything different than they have ever done.
Not profitable, yet, however I don't think the main manufacturers are exactly raking it in, they had bailouts not that long ago.
Copenhagen has just implemented an app based car rental system with 400 BMW i3's for use by anyone.
Amazing.
Why on earth would anyone "licence" Tesla's technology when it's freely available? Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff