RE: Tesla announces P100D upgrades
Discussion
smilo996 said:
kambites said:
Why on earth would anyone "licence" Tesla's technology when it's freely available? Ultimately there's only so many different things you can do with a pure EV. As has been pointed out, there's nothing particularly revolutionary about any of Tesla's cars from an engineering perspective.
kambites said:
Probably not, but he's also not building up Tesla with the aim of ending up with a car company in the long term.
Precisely. It's just a vehicle (excuse the pun) to build value and I'm sure he'll go from there. I doubt he's looking at Tesla as a new Ford. I'd be surprised if the brand were building cars under it's own name at all in 5-10 years time.KimJongHealthy said:
Yeah, Apple has no chance once the likes of Nokia start flexing their muscles.
Oh, wait.
You are right, Apple did something really innovative and came to dominate the phone market. They outsold all other companies put together and forced a complete sea change in how people looked at mobile phones and media download. They are still ahead and are the worlds biggest company. The offering was completely unique, unconventional, innovative and completely changed the mobile market inside of 2 years. Oh, wait.
Musk put a ton of batteries in a conventional car which Americans like because it makes them feel better without actually having to think and bee responsible.
Tesla sell 30% of all EV cars in the US and figure almost nowhere in other markets. BMW and Toyota outsell them and Tesla has been at it since 2003.
The BMW i3, clearly launched in response to Tesla and not because of the the continued success of the Prius and the significant tax breaks available in the US are now second after 3 years.
Copenhagen, famously a green city chose to lease 400 i3's and connect them with an app for use by anyone in Denmark. Oddly they did not choose the game changing Tesla.
Toyota have sold 65% of all EV cars ever produced.
So Musk really isn't Apple, he is like a small android producer cashing in.
smilo996 said:
The entire USP for the Tesla, acceleration. Sums it up.
There are other elements to the whole Tesla thing but granted, it does become tiresome reading punters comments ad nauseum about electric cars this-and-that and the Model S is the perfect car for ever. And that was two years ago and we've seen the dual motor, 95 and now 100 kwh battery, the new smart fuse to allow ludicrous mode. At least the oft spurted 'keep it for ever and Tesla will update it!!!' has gone as the trick new stuff don't work on the old cars. And when they start with the new LIDAR hardware to make the autopilot really work, the current cars won't support the new software.smilo996 said:
You are right, Apple did something really innovative and came to dominate the phone market. They outsold all other companies put together and forced a complete sea change in how people looked at mobile phones and media download. They are still ahead and are the worlds biggest company. The offering was completely unique, unconventional, innovative and completely changed the mobile market inside of 2 years.
Musk put a ton of batteries in a conventional car which Americans like because it makes them feel better without actually having to think and bee responsible.
Tesla sell 30% of all EV cars in the US and figure almost nowhere in other markets. BMW and Toyota outsell them and Tesla has been at it since 2003.
The BMW i3, clearly launched in response to Tesla and not because of the the continued success of the Prius and the significant tax breaks available in the US are now second after 3 years.
Copenhagen, famously a green city chose to lease 400 i3's and connect them with an app for use by anyone in Denmark. Oddly they did not choose the game changing Tesla.
Toyota have sold 65% of all EV cars ever produced.
So Musk really isn't Apple, he is like a small android producer cashing in.
Not sure where you got your information from, but it is wrong, unless you are counting the tiny electric range of the Prius hybrid as a full EV? They have made a very small number of compliance cars (California and compliant states only) in the shape of the RAV 4 EV, which used Tesla technology to make it work. They have also made a small number of plug-in hybrid Prius, but they have a tiny electric range. They have also sold a tiny number of Mirai HFCEV cars. Musk put a ton of batteries in a conventional car which Americans like because it makes them feel better without actually having to think and bee responsible.
Tesla sell 30% of all EV cars in the US and figure almost nowhere in other markets. BMW and Toyota outsell them and Tesla has been at it since 2003.
The BMW i3, clearly launched in response to Tesla and not because of the the continued success of the Prius and the significant tax breaks available in the US are now second after 3 years.
Copenhagen, famously a green city chose to lease 400 i3's and connect them with an app for use by anyone in Denmark. Oddly they did not choose the game changing Tesla.
Toyota have sold 65% of all EV cars ever produced.
So Musk really isn't Apple, he is like a small android producer cashing in.
In Europe, Nissan are number 1 in EV, Renault number 2 and Tesla number 3, which is impressive given their tiny dealer reach compared to the established first two. If you include Mitsubishi Outlander they are number 4.
http://evobsession.com/500000-electric-cars-now-eu...
smilo996 said:
Of course. Paypal was not exactly cutting edge was it.
Yes it was.smilo996 said:
Western Union for It users and its usage is already tailing off.
As they have not innovated in the slightest since he and Thiel sold, Musk and Thiel have had a lot to say about to lack of development at PP, but I'm sure you know this.smilo996 said:
Space X works? Clearly you do not read the news.
If you ignore everything else, pleeeease tell me in what way SpaceX arent successful. Humour me.
smilo996 said:
Tesla is successful? It took them ten years to get to the Model S.
Is that bad timescale for the industry?smilo996 said:
it is nothing revolutionary.
I agree but it's a hell of an evolution.
smilo996 said:
But some people just luuuve anything Americans do.
The penny drops, I knew it was an irrational thing. He is South African, I don't know if you have a standing order hatred of them too...I think that we just differ in that you seem to want perfection or nothing, I am happy with a little better again and again.
Edited by The Vambo on Tuesday 30th August 22:15
KimJongHealthy said:
smilo996 said:
Tesla has no chance once the likes of VW Group start flexing their muscles. Especially given that their key supplier, Bosch designs and builds the hybrid systems for both Audi and Porka in the WEC and has just built a modular system for both energy delivery, recovery and management. JLR are racing electric cars and using Williams. MC Laren have Honda who finally are getting to the top of the time sheets in F1. Might be why no one has licensed Tesla's electric tech.
Yeah, Apple has no chance once the likes of Nokia start flexing their muscles. Oh, wait.
The Vambo said:
smilo996 said:
Space X works? Clearly you do not read the news.
If you ignore everything else, pleeeease tell me in what way SpaceX arent successful. Humour me.
t arnt they.SpaceX's only problem is not being able to launch heavier things, which is a smaller market, and one soon sorted.
Impasse said:
I don't live in a house.
This is where governments, councils and building owners need to learn from other countries. In Norway they sometimes make roadside parking bays electric car only or parts of them. The parking is enforced as all e-cars have EL as their first two reg letters to help the traffic wardens. In Amsterdam you can get a parking space very much more quickly if you buy an EV and they will install the charger. If the government want to meet air quality targets and CO2 reduction targets then they need to support things more. Not a single house or apartment in the UK should be built without a charge point being at least wired for and provisioned for in the design.
I love driving as much as anyone, but the fact remains that for a huge proportion of my journey a smooth, quiet, responsive car with very low fuel costs would be appealing.
Miles Hardy said:
It makes me angry just thinking about electric cars. Dya know what's more economical. Looking after a decent car for 30 or 40 years. That's probably a trillion times better for the planet than buying 15 new ones. Also, the deaths thing. Horrid. But you must be clinically insane to trust a computer with your life for starters? You can't trust the things to send a sodding email still without having a fit from time to time, letting it drive you at 70mph? You've gotta be mad. Ban them.
This myth that an old car is better for the planet doesn't even stack up in just CO2 terms unless you do an incredibly low mileage. In air quality terms, an old car is putting out a huge multiple of g/km of NOx etc. into the atmosphere of a new one. NOx isn't theoretically bad for you or disputed in any way shape or form, on high NOx days, more people are admitted to hospital and more people die. Electric cars can be a big part of improving urban air quality and with smart charging and two way charging can help stabilise the electricity grid to make renewables more viable.
dino ferrana said:
Electric cars can be a big part of improving urban air quality and with smart charging and two way charging can help stabilise the electricity grid to make renewables more viable.
Actually, if you want to improve urban air quality, you invest in a decent public transport infrastructure, ban private vehicles and introduce electric delivery trucks. I was very surprised to learn that Los Angeles, home of the traffic tailback, afternoon smog and six lane freeway has less than half the population of London.Electric cars may help at some undetermined time in the future, but if you're buying one now, you're not really saving the planet. Studies are somewhat controversial (they're usually trying to prove one political point or another), but it seems that basically the bigger and heavier the car is, the more CO2 is used in its production, and typically the amount of CO2 emitted by that car during its lifetime is equivalent to the amount used in its production. In addition, EVs involve quite a bit more CO2 emission during production of the battery. I'm sure someone will come up with a study that 'disproves' it, but that summary is roughly right. If you genuinely want to reduce emissions, save the planet etc. then buy a Nissan Micra or Hyundai i10 - their lifetime emissions will be lower than a Tesla S, and their manufacturing impact just a fraction of the EV.
A common misconception is that EVs create more emissions when being built than they save, which is not the case. Most of the car is very similar to a conventional vehicle with pressed steel or ally panels, fairly conventional suspension, electronics etc. The battery and motor are different, but there are also energy intensive items like engine and multi-speed gearboxes which are not fitted.
The biggest energy phase of a car's life is in the use of it, unless it does a thousand miles a year and is scrapped early. EVs do take more energy to create, but save it back easily in their lifetime and all the while not chucking out NOx etc. at knee height next to prams and pushchairs.
One of the studies someone will no doubt dig out was by a Norwegian Uni (sponsored by Statoil) that claimed the Nissan LEAF had xxx emissions because of the components and elements that went in. A rebuttal showed that the calculation on copper usage had been done using a static industrial motor as a proxy and the weight of copper they had suggested was more than the whole motor assembly (magnets, stator, rotor, casing etc) weighed. IN short, it was utter bovine excrement.
The biggest energy phase of a car's life is in the use of it, unless it does a thousand miles a year and is scrapped early. EVs do take more energy to create, but save it back easily in their lifetime and all the while not chucking out NOx etc. at knee height next to prams and pushchairs.
One of the studies someone will no doubt dig out was by a Norwegian Uni (sponsored by Statoil) that claimed the Nissan LEAF had xxx emissions because of the components and elements that went in. A rebuttal showed that the calculation on copper usage had been done using a static industrial motor as a proxy and the weight of copper they had suggested was more than the whole motor assembly (magnets, stator, rotor, casing etc) weighed. IN short, it was utter bovine excrement.
Read all pages over lunch - interesting blend of the typical Luddite like "don’t like them just a milkfloat", usual posts people defending their life choices as best because they've made them, and some genuinely interesting and thought provoking stuff.
On EV - I actually think it probably is the end state. Because whilst it’s not being talked about anything like as much as it should be, the price/performance ratio of solar energy is increasing exponentially at a similar (actually I think greater) rate that Moore's law. Exponential technology improvements that have commercial applications don't just slow down; one prediction I read stated that by just 2025 solar has improved to the rate we just don't need nuclear, coal, fuel, etc anymore for the whole world's energy needs! It makes total sense conceptually, there isn't an underlying chemical (battery) or atomic (semiconductor) limitation - and the sun in fairness does give energy to Everything. An abundance of cheap energy (think huge solar farms in remote African, Australian, Middle East areas), plus solar on cars also and EV cars being the norm is inevitable.
On Tesla - Musk is taking a lot of risk, I don't think he's doing it to be altruistic, but you can't deny they are visionaries. They are reinventing the car company, how they are distributed, how upgrades are maintained, as well as the technology itself. Car manufacturers are notoriously conservative with real technology upgrades - even now there isn't a non-Telsa in the mainstream with a user interface that doesn’t feel years behind an average smartphone. Tesla don't have that cultural inertia to deal with because they are building a new company bottom up - although the bigger they get, the more ex car-guys they will have to recruit. Whether it can actually make money depends on how much imagination and market share he can capture now and how much of a lead they can steal on the competition. If they get a critical mass of engineering talent, patents and market share it might work and mainstream manufactures will be behind for years in the way Apple dominate tablets today and Microsoft used to dominate operating systems -but it's clearly risky. I think they should be admired and praised for what they've done so far.
On the car and all this "all it can do is accelerate" bullst. Come on! I had coincidentally my first drive in one last night and to be clear *it can drive itself*. If that isn't a cool thing I don't know what is. Driverless cars are coming, make total sense, will save lives and get us from A to B more quickly. Everyone just needs to deal with it. The legal and moral stuff (getting into a device that might by design opt to kill you if killing you is better than killing 10…) is really difficult - but there are too many benefits to ignore. It doesn’t remove the pleasure of driving -if we're honest driving pleasure is only a small percentage behind the wheel. The rest is just "transport". I used to commute in my 1M and I had fun on the last B-road; I drove in traffic on the motorway before that. Bored.
It's also a perfectly comfortable and technologically fascinating luxury car, with a revolutionary in car terms UI. And on the supposed "one USP" - the acceleration is bonkers, and the 90D last night felt the fastest car I've ever been in, and wasn't even a "P" version. It wasn't the actual fastest car - my race car will do 60 in low 3s and to 100 in 7s or 8s, and I've had many miles in a 458: but it "felt" the fastest because of the ridiculous 100%-torque-from-0 surge to 40mph. Day to day driving that torque and it's availability will make this feel faster than pretty much any other car you've ever been in. Which is fun, let's face it.
I wouldn’t buy one just now, somebody else can take the risk on them being technically obsolete in 5 years thanks - but applaud people who so, and applaud Tesla and Musk for giving us a genuinely different option to consider.
On EV - I actually think it probably is the end state. Because whilst it’s not being talked about anything like as much as it should be, the price/performance ratio of solar energy is increasing exponentially at a similar (actually I think greater) rate that Moore's law. Exponential technology improvements that have commercial applications don't just slow down; one prediction I read stated that by just 2025 solar has improved to the rate we just don't need nuclear, coal, fuel, etc anymore for the whole world's energy needs! It makes total sense conceptually, there isn't an underlying chemical (battery) or atomic (semiconductor) limitation - and the sun in fairness does give energy to Everything. An abundance of cheap energy (think huge solar farms in remote African, Australian, Middle East areas), plus solar on cars also and EV cars being the norm is inevitable.
On Tesla - Musk is taking a lot of risk, I don't think he's doing it to be altruistic, but you can't deny they are visionaries. They are reinventing the car company, how they are distributed, how upgrades are maintained, as well as the technology itself. Car manufacturers are notoriously conservative with real technology upgrades - even now there isn't a non-Telsa in the mainstream with a user interface that doesn’t feel years behind an average smartphone. Tesla don't have that cultural inertia to deal with because they are building a new company bottom up - although the bigger they get, the more ex car-guys they will have to recruit. Whether it can actually make money depends on how much imagination and market share he can capture now and how much of a lead they can steal on the competition. If they get a critical mass of engineering talent, patents and market share it might work and mainstream manufactures will be behind for years in the way Apple dominate tablets today and Microsoft used to dominate operating systems -but it's clearly risky. I think they should be admired and praised for what they've done so far.
On the car and all this "all it can do is accelerate" bulls
t. Come on! I had coincidentally my first drive in one last night and to be clear *it can drive itself*. If that isn't a cool thing I don't know what is. Driverless cars are coming, make total sense, will save lives and get us from A to B more quickly. Everyone just needs to deal with it. The legal and moral stuff (getting into a device that might by design opt to kill you if killing you is better than killing 10…) is really difficult - but there are too many benefits to ignore. It doesn’t remove the pleasure of driving -if we're honest driving pleasure is only a small percentage behind the wheel. The rest is just "transport". I used to commute in my 1M and I had fun on the last B-road; I drove in traffic on the motorway before that. Bored. It's also a perfectly comfortable and technologically fascinating luxury car, with a revolutionary in car terms UI. And on the supposed "one USP" - the acceleration is bonkers, and the 90D last night felt the fastest car I've ever been in, and wasn't even a "P" version. It wasn't the actual fastest car - my race car will do 60 in low 3s and to 100 in 7s or 8s, and I've had many miles in a 458: but it "felt" the fastest because of the ridiculous 100%-torque-from-0 surge to 40mph. Day to day driving that torque and it's availability will make this feel faster than pretty much any other car you've ever been in. Which is fun, let's face it.
I wouldn’t buy one just now, somebody else can take the risk on them being technically obsolete in 5 years thanks - but applaud people who so, and applaud Tesla and Musk for giving us a genuinely different option to consider.
dino ferrana said:
all the while not chucking out NOx etc. at knee height next to prams and pushchairs.
Don't get hysterical, dear...
Being an old fart, pram time was long ago but my town was filthy back then, stone building turned black and buses and vans chucking out much more crap than now.
I have to say, it had no effect on my health.
So, deep joy and calm down, old boy.
cidered77 said:
Read all pages over lunch - interesting blend of the typical Luddite like "don’t like them just a milkfloat",
I'd say more like a dodgem car...
cidered77 said:
On EV - I actually think it probably is the end state. Because whilst it’s not being talked about anything like as much as it should be, the price/performance ratio of solar energy is increasing exponentially at a similar (actually I think greater) rate that Moore's law. Exponential technology improvements that have commercial applications don't just slow down; one prediction I read stated that by just 2025 solar has improved to the rate we just don't need nuclear, coal, fuel, etc anymore for the whole world's energy needs!
Pardon me, but ----> 
I won't even ask where you read that. Now go back and research the problems some solar operators are having.cidered77 said:
plus solar on cars
Which grind to a halt when it clouds over for a few days.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff