Drivers pulling out from side streets not looking/giving way
Discussion
Thanks for taking time to answer, pretty much as I thought then.. and I can specially relate to wanting to wind down after a 12 hour shift driving!
Just for the record, not one was on blue lights or sirens whilst driving slowly. If you were indeed transporting a delicate patient which meant slow speeds etc, would you still be on blue lights?
Just for the record, not one was on blue lights or sirens whilst driving slowly. If you were indeed transporting a delicate patient which meant slow speeds etc, would you still be on blue lights?
philmots said:
Thanks for taking time to answer, pretty much as I thought then.. and I can specially relate to wanting to wind down after a 12 hour shift driving!
Just for the record, not one was on blue lights or sirens whilst driving slowly. If you were indeed transporting a delicate patient which meant slow speeds etc, would you still be on blue lights?
Heya, sorry for late reply, something to do with work and ridiculous shifts!Just for the record, not one was on blue lights or sirens whilst driving slowly. If you were indeed transporting a delicate patient which meant slow speeds etc, would you still be on blue lights?
Hummmm, use of blue lights and sirens when transporting patients......can open, worms everywhere!
There are Trust guidelines as to when it is relevant - technically, because when someone calls 111 or 999, and it's been triaged by clinical staff in the call centre, a transporting ambulance is only dispatched to the most serious / injurious / life-threatening jobs; ergo we should always travel to the job under full emergency conditions, and then once the patient is on board, to transport on blues as well.
Similarly, as an HCPC registered clinician, I / we all are supposed to make a decision about method of transport which best reflects the ideal care pathway for each patient. Which, of course, is totally correct obviously.
However in reality, you can probably realise that it is not always in the best interests of the patient to transport at batsh*t speeds, with everything going. It is frankly a judgement call about what's best for the patient.
Obviously with really 'big sick' patients, including both medical and trauma, getting them to a specialist hospital as quickly as possible is paramount, so I'll ask my driver to use everything, and drive like it's his life depending on it (but still safely, not recklessly!). Yes, we have access to a huge range of equipment and drugs now in a vehicle, along with advanced clinical skills - but clearly nothing can emulate being in an appropriate hospital facility.
But then after that, as I said, it's a judgement call. Also depends upon how much pain they are in. I am fortunate to have access to a decent range of painkillers, both oral and IV, including up to a large dose of Morphine, so I can usually get pain under control even in some really bad cases. In those situations, when say someone has a smashed leg and is screaming that they have 10/10 pain when I arrive, and I get them down to like 1/10 or 2/10 pain, and they're even starting to drop off, it would be counter-productive to go on blues and drive fast - in fact on the contrary, a 'driving Miss Daisy' approach is clearly best for them, right?
However, to also directly address your question, yes - if a slow driving approach is most appropriate, BUT the traffic is a nightmare, and I want my patient to be into a hospital asap - then we often go onto blues to cut through the traffic, or just not be inconvenienced by endless red traffic lights in city centres, which would prolong the discomfort for our patient....so you might see us driving on blues but at quite a sedate pace.
So, I guess the best answer is.....that there's no clear answer! It's a custom fit approach to driving, depending upon many factors really. Which is kinda why this job is so interesting - no two jobs are really ever the same, and so we're thinking on our feet all the time. Plus - we're also not scared to change our decisions on a dynamic basis, things can change quite quickly as you might imagine - so I might be with a patient being transported gently and carefully at normal road speeds one minute, notice an unexpected deterioration, and shout through to my driver to hit the blues and GLF the next.....
I hope this insight is useful anyway!
More questions!
I live in a cul-de-sac and there are far more vans and cars than houses. Often I come home from work and have to squeeze through the gap between two vehicles, one on each side but staggered. I always think "A fire engine or Ambulance won't fit through there".
So the question is - What do you do if you are obstructed by parked cars on the way to a patient? If it's critical (patients heart has stopped and you have an untrained member of the public doing heart compressions with an operator on the phone) are you permitted to make 'contact' with parked cars?
I'd always assumed not but I remember trying to park at a block of flats in west London years ago and the cars had filled all available road space. I thought at the time that if a fire started quickly about half way up the building, whilst the engines could park some way away and run the hoses, they couldn't get near the building to use ladders. I can't imagine they stand there and watch it burn...
I live in a cul-de-sac and there are far more vans and cars than houses. Often I come home from work and have to squeeze through the gap between two vehicles, one on each side but staggered. I always think "A fire engine or Ambulance won't fit through there".
So the question is - What do you do if you are obstructed by parked cars on the way to a patient? If it's critical (patients heart has stopped and you have an untrained member of the public doing heart compressions with an operator on the phone) are you permitted to make 'contact' with parked cars?
I'd always assumed not but I remember trying to park at a block of flats in west London years ago and the cars had filled all available road space. I thought at the time that if a fire started quickly about half way up the building, whilst the engines could park some way away and run the hoses, they couldn't get near the building to use ladders. I can't imagine they stand there and watch it burn...
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
And if you're stopped at a red traffic light, despite the fact that I might stop behind you with all my lights going, I will turn the siren off and wait for the lights to change, because I am aware that if you do drive over the white line on a red light, then you are liable to get a 3 point/£100 ticket, even if you're doing it for an emergency vehicle. Mentally, the law does not allow for this! So don't worry about it, I can wait until the lights change if there's no other way for me to get past you.
I think it's nuts that the law doesn't allow for this situation. Toltec said:
brrapp said:
I have to admit that I'm guilty of pulling out in front of other drivers but if, and only if, I'm able to pull out in front of them and am already at their speed or will reach it well before they have a chance to catch up. I consider this to be normal driving, but judging by the number of beeps and flashes I get, maybe some of them consider I'm cutting it a bit fine.
If I can be out of the junction and pulling away from them whilst maintaining a 3 car length gap and without them having to slow at all then I consider this OK. Am I wrong? I've been doing it for 35 years of driving.
Depends on the distance and speed, they do not know you are going to get on with it, if the distance means they would need to brake for the normal dribbler then they probably will. If I can be out of the junction and pulling away from them whilst maintaining a 3 car length gap and without them having to slow at all then I consider this OK. Am I wrong? I've been doing it for 35 years of driving.
Pretty sure I have been guilty of this to an extent, you pull out and when you check behind they are much further back than you would expect.
It is like a car turning right across you, you have to allow that they might stall or suddenly see their path is not clear and stop.
This junction here with the combination of the cottage right on the edge of the road and the hidden dips at both sides of the junction is difficult and drivers on the main road will sometimes get indignant and aggressive with those pulling out for not using The Force to somehow know they were coming at speed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.8345133,-2.56706...
This impatience and lack of thought is a common feature of dashcam videos. A combination of this and the people who pull out and dawdle only for people to hammer up behind them is one of the things that leads to people demanding lower speed limits and cameras.
Cemesis said:
More questions!
I live in a cul-de-sac and there are far more vans and cars than houses. Often I come home from work and have to squeeze through the gap between two vehicles, one on each side but staggered. I always think "A fire engine or Ambulance won't fit through there".
So the question is - What do you do if you are obstructed by parked cars on the way to a patient? If it's critical (patients heart has stopped and you have an untrained member of the public doing heart compressions with an operator on the phone) are you permitted to make 'contact' with parked cars?
I'd always assumed not but I remember trying to park at a block of flats in west London years ago and the cars had filled all available road space. I thought at the time that if a fire started quickly about half way up the building, whilst the engines could park some way away and run the hoses, they couldn't get near the building to use ladders. I can't imagine they stand there and watch it burn...
No worries, I am happy to help!I live in a cul-de-sac and there are far more vans and cars than houses. Often I come home from work and have to squeeze through the gap between two vehicles, one on each side but staggered. I always think "A fire engine or Ambulance won't fit through there".
So the question is - What do you do if you are obstructed by parked cars on the way to a patient? If it's critical (patients heart has stopped and you have an untrained member of the public doing heart compressions with an operator on the phone) are you permitted to make 'contact' with parked cars?
I'd always assumed not but I remember trying to park at a block of flats in west London years ago and the cars had filled all available road space. I thought at the time that if a fire started quickly about half way up the building, whilst the engines could park some way away and run the hoses, they couldn't get near the building to use ladders. I can't imagine they stand there and watch it burn...
So, yes, this is a scenario we are sometimes presented with, but fortunately, not too often. Our latest Ambo's are based on Mercedes Sprinter chassis, with a box on the back as you my have seen - however the widest part of the vehicle is the tips of the wing mirrors, so it's basically no wider 'as such' than a standard van. Hence generally we're able to get through most situations.
When it comes to lack of access, our driving guidelines are pretty clear on that - never put the vehicle at risk, for example by driving over grass, mud, or dodgy surfaces where it may get stuck. And as for making contact with anything else - other vehicles, houses or property, that is one of the biggest no-no's ever! There are no occasions at all when that would be deemed to be acceptable, no matter what the patient or situation.
Our driving standards are so strict when it comes to other vehicles, that even if we are driving on blues and two and we, say, pull onto a roundabout because someone has stopped halfway round for us, but a car behind THEM doesn't react in time and hits the stationary car, then even though we have not been part of a collision, we are duty bound to stop and become part of the accident so to speak, regardless of who / what we have on board patient-wise. We are to deal with the accident, and call for backup to collect the patient from us.
The Trusts are very strict (and rightly so I think) when it comes to driving standards and damage to vehicles. We have an in-house 'points' system in place, and it is easy to gain points for even minor infringements - such as breaking a wing mirror or getting a dent or scrape. Certainly ploughing through a line of parked cars as you've described would probably see a lengthy punishment and re-training at best, or even no job at worst!
As I think I said before, our driver training is over twenty, 8-hour days of being trained out on the road, along with five classroom exams, based around everything from road signs and highway code knowledge, up to knowing, understanding, utilising and demonstrating most of the Police 'Roadcraft' method of driving to 'the system.' It's quite strict, challenging and demanding, and by no means do every single student get through it all first time. They're not shy about (and again, rightly so I think) failing someone and making them come back with the next batch of trainees to do it all again.
Then once we've successfully passed all that, we have to do six months in ambulances, and only then can we go back for a further two days of updated training in the fast-response cars.
I think that I can speak for most NHS staff though when I say that we all take our driving training and qualifications very seriously, and are all proud of what we have achieved, and how we apply it on the road - it is for me at least, satisfying and a privilege to have had such comprehensive training, and I do enjoy being a certified 'professional advanced driver' so to speak. And actually, I really buy into 'the system' anyway, and I use most aspects of it when driving my own private vehicles.
Oh, and as for the 'water faries' barging their truck through a load of parked cars - I have no idea, you'll have to ask one!!!
Its a daily thing for me - happened this morning where a van had already left to go so i had to stop to let him complete the turn. Prick.
Just going to mention another hallmark of a
- hogging the middle and fast lanes at dead on 70 when they could be in the slow lane. Its got visbily worse the last few years in the same way. Absolutely infuriating.
These people should have their licenses revoked and a retest.
Just going to mention another hallmark of a
- hogging the middle and fast lanes at dead on 70 when they could be in the slow lane. Its got visbily worse the last few years in the same way. Absolutely infuriating.These people should have their licenses revoked and a retest.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
And as for making contact with anything else - other vehicles, houses or property, that is one of the biggest no-no's ever!
I'd always assumed this was the case until 6 or so months ago, when I saw one of the Volvo estate paramedic cars utterly clobber someone who stopped on a pedestrian crossing without leaving him enough space to get through. Took his wing mirror and most of the front wing off, then drove off into the distance.Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Last question - what would I like you to do, when I come up behind you on an emergency response on blues and twos? Quite simply, whatever the road conditions, I would like you to just stop please. Don't speed up, trying to be helpful and go looking for a better place to pull over or something...I know that they mean well, but because I don't have to stick to posted speed limits, after a while I am still gonna have to get past you, so might as well make that sooner rather than later. So for me at least, just stop, and don't even worry about smashing up onto a kerb or pavement, and buggering up your alloy wheels - just stop in the carriageway, and let getting past you be my problem. We all get 20 days of advanced driver training with 5 exams - so we're well able to cope with dynamic situations like that!
This surprises me. I'd have thought that you'd rather the traffic keeps flowing than becomes a stationary obstacle. I've always worked to that assumption, perhaps I am wrong.Back to the subject of the OP, I had someone pull out on me without looking the other day, causing me to brake heavily. Then the driver in question surprised me by flashing his hazards and raising his hand in apology. What will cause a lot of PHers even more surprise is that this was a matt orange coloured BMW M3, being driven by a gentleman with a culturally significant large black beard and matching tight fitting, round white hat, sitting in the classic low-down, laid back, I-iz-jus-crooooozzzin'-bruv pose.
ManOpener said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
And as for making contact with anything else - other vehicles, houses or property, that is one of the biggest no-no's ever!
I'd always assumed this was the case until 6 or so months ago, when I saw one of the Volvo estate paramedic cars utterly clobber someone who stopped on a pedestrian crossing without leaving him enough space to get through. Took his wing mirror and most of the front wing off, then drove off into the distance.It was probably a private company provider Volvo - all the Trusts hire a lot of private fully staffed Ambo's and RRV's (probably way more than most people realise) which despite having to be CQC registered companies and allowed to display NHS logos, may not have the same driving standards. I've never worked for one however, so I don't know.
Most public wouldn't be able to identify most private ambo's and RRV's, because they essentially look the same as ours broadly speaking. Some carry the company's logo - most do not.
SilverSixer said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Last question - what would I like you to do, when I come up behind you on an emergency response on blues and twos? Quite simply, whatever the road conditions, I would like you to just stop please. Don't speed up, trying to be helpful and go looking for a better place to pull over or something...I know that they mean well, but because I don't have to stick to posted speed limits, after a while I am still gonna have to get past you, so might as well make that sooner rather than later. So for me at least, just stop, and don't even worry about smashing up onto a kerb or pavement, and buggering up your alloy wheels - just stop in the carriageway, and let getting past you be my problem. We all get 20 days of advanced driver training with 5 exams - so we're well able to cope with dynamic situations like that!
This surprises me. I'd have thought that you'd rather the traffic keeps flowing than becomes a stationary obstacle. I've always worked to that assumption, perhaps I am wrong. The problem is that I cannot identify the 5% of decent drivers from PH (unless I see a smiley on the back of the car of course
) so I have to assume everyone is either an idiot, hasn't seen me, or is playing with their phone...or all three, more usually!So to that end, it is far more easy for me to predict what a stationary vehicle is going to do - hopefully the clue is in the word stationary - e.g. nothing! I can be 99% sure that if they have pulled over and stopped - especially if they're indicating - then they will stay stopped, and exactly where I can see them, until I have passed.
Whereas a moving target is a whole different can of worms. Have they actually seen me at all? That is not always clear from their driving manner. If I go to overtake and then they spear off to a right turn or lane in front of me and there's a disaster, then aside from the damage to the vehicles and injury to my crew and patients, the fault will certainly lie with me, driving wise - and there's a good chance I will lose my job if it is a biggie.
Finally, it is far more difficult to get a 6 tonne vehicle, that handles like a blancmange, past a moving vehicle, than a stopped one. Last of all, most overtakes involve me using the opposite carriageway with all the danger that involves - not just from oncoming traffic but hidden sideroads and driveways on the other side of the road as you can appreciate. Therefore my time exposed to danger is lessened greatly from a stopped vehicle.
I hope this all helps - and I am genuinely grateful for everyone's questions on this too.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
SilverSixer said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Last question - what would I like you to do, when I come up behind you on an emergency response on blues and twos? Quite simply, whatever the road conditions, I would like you to just stop please. Don't speed up, trying to be helpful and go looking for a better place to pull over or something...I know that they mean well, but because I don't have to stick to posted speed limits, after a while I am still gonna have to get past you, so might as well make that sooner rather than later. So for me at least, just stop, and don't even worry about smashing up onto a kerb or pavement, and buggering up your alloy wheels - just stop in the carriageway, and let getting past you be my problem. We all get 20 days of advanced driver training with 5 exams - so we're well able to cope with dynamic situations like that!
This surprises me. I'd have thought that you'd rather the traffic keeps flowing than becomes a stationary obstacle. I've always worked to that assumption, perhaps I am wrong. The problem is that I cannot identify the 5% of decent drivers from PH (unless I see a smiley on the back of the car of course
) so I have to assume everyone is either an idiot, hasn't seen me, or is playing with their phone...or all three, more usually!So to that end, it is far more easy for me to predict what a stationary vehicle is going to do - hopefully the clue is in the word stationary - e.g. nothing! I can be 99% sure that if they have pulled over and stopped - especially if they're indicating - then they will stay stopped, and exactly where I can see them, until I have passed.
Whereas a moving target is a whole different can of worms. Have they actually seen me at all? That is not always clear from their driving manner. If I go to overtake and then they spear off to a right turn or lane in front of me and there's a disaster, then aside from the damage to the vehicles and injury to my crew and patients, the fault will certainly lie with me, driving wise - and there's a good chance I will lose my job if it is a biggie.
Finally, it is far more difficult to get a 6 tonne vehicle, that handles like a blancmange, past a moving vehicle, than a stopped one. Last of all, most overtakes involve me using the opposite carriageway with all the danger that involves - not just from oncoming traffic but hidden sideroads and driveways on the other side of the road as you can appreciate. Therefore my time exposed to danger is lessened greatly from a stopped vehicle.
I hope this all helps - and I am genuinely grateful for everyone's questions on this too.
In situations where that is not practical, how would you advise drivers to indicate to you that they've noticed you and are actively looking to give you priority of passage as soon as possible?
xjay1337 said:
I was heading back from Milford on Sea today via some nice wide open B-roads and quaint villages after a lovely walk along the coast.
I st you not, within a 2 mile stretch at every single junction SOMEONE pulled out infront me.
In all situations the driver was completely oblivious.
There have been a few occasions where you can see when approaching a roundabout that someone will just drive out infront of you and does not look, as I make eye contact with people so you can see if they are actually looking - Their heads often don't even move.
Oh they look alright. It's just a quick peripheral scan. The avoidance of eye contact from these people is just guilt.I s
t you not, within a 2 mile stretch at every single junction SOMEONE pulled out infront me.In all situations the driver was completely oblivious.
There have been a few occasions where you can see when approaching a roundabout that someone will just drive out infront of you and does not look, as I make eye contact with people so you can see if they are actually looking - Their heads often don't even move.
I got the rarest of rare things the other day. Someone putting his hand out of the window to acknowledge the error of his ways when barreling onto the roundabout I'd just joined, forcing me to brake. Faith in humanity 0.3% restored.
I do agree in most cases of this happening. However, after an experience i had setting off to work the other morning when it has absolutely hammering it down, i did experience the other side from it too.
I was parked up on the right hand side outside of my flat and i was pretty much having to pull out (left) blind with me being closest to the curb. Obviously i was able to use my passenger side mirror to effectively check that nothing was coming behind me. There were loads of cars also parked both behind and in front of me and attempting to look through potential gaps in the cars in front to see anything oncoming really wasn't helping. So i very slowly edged out and just as the nose of my car swung round and i was finally able to see the road ahead, some bloke in a Citroen C1 comes barreling down the road at a fairly brisk speed and swerves slightly to his right. He then decides to stop there in the middle of the road, blocking the rest of my manoeuvre and went about about effing and jeffing (with the window up so i couldn't hear a thing) and making various hand signs. He then eventually drove off after a few minutes.
I was just a bit baffled. I can definitely see it from his POV, driving down a side street then all of a sudden someone puling out. Surely, knowing he's driving down a busy side street with alot of parked cars, he should be aware of potential hazards and at least slow down and be mindful. I'm still struggling to see what else i could possibly have done. Lucky that it wasn't someone trying to cross over from one side of the street to the next, let alone a car wanted to pull out. It's like he couldn't see it from my POV at all.
I was parked up on the right hand side outside of my flat and i was pretty much having to pull out (left) blind with me being closest to the curb. Obviously i was able to use my passenger side mirror to effectively check that nothing was coming behind me. There were loads of cars also parked both behind and in front of me and attempting to look through potential gaps in the cars in front to see anything oncoming really wasn't helping. So i very slowly edged out and just as the nose of my car swung round and i was finally able to see the road ahead, some bloke in a Citroen C1 comes barreling down the road at a fairly brisk speed and swerves slightly to his right. He then decides to stop there in the middle of the road, blocking the rest of my manoeuvre and went about about effing and jeffing (with the window up so i couldn't hear a thing) and making various hand signs. He then eventually drove off after a few minutes.
I was just a bit baffled. I can definitely see it from his POV, driving down a side street then all of a sudden someone puling out. Surely, knowing he's driving down a busy side street with alot of parked cars, he should be aware of potential hazards and at least slow down and be mindful. I'm still struggling to see what else i could possibly have done. Lucky that it wasn't someone trying to cross over from one side of the street to the next, let alone a car wanted to pull out. It's like he couldn't see it from my POV at all.
SilverSixer said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
SilverSixer said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Last question - what would I like you to do, when I come up behind you on an emergency response on blues and twos? Quite simply, whatever the road conditions, I would like you to just stop please. Don't speed up, trying to be helpful and go looking for a better place to pull over or something...I know that they mean well, but because I don't have to stick to posted speed limits, after a while I am still gonna have to get past you, so might as well make that sooner rather than later. So for me at least, just stop, and don't even worry about smashing up onto a kerb or pavement, and buggering up your alloy wheels - just stop in the carriageway, and let getting past you be my problem. We all get 20 days of advanced driver training with 5 exams - so we're well able to cope with dynamic situations like that!
This surprises me. I'd have thought that you'd rather the traffic keeps flowing than becomes a stationary obstacle. I've always worked to that assumption, perhaps I am wrong. The problem is that I cannot identify the 5% of decent drivers from PH (unless I see a smiley on the back of the car of course
) so I have to assume everyone is either an idiot, hasn't seen me, or is playing with their phone...or all three, more usually!So to that end, it is far more easy for me to predict what a stationary vehicle is going to do - hopefully the clue is in the word stationary - e.g. nothing! I can be 99% sure that if they have pulled over and stopped - especially if they're indicating - then they will stay stopped, and exactly where I can see them, until I have passed.
Whereas a moving target is a whole different can of worms. Have they actually seen me at all? That is not always clear from their driving manner. If I go to overtake and then they spear off to a right turn or lane in front of me and there's a disaster, then aside from the damage to the vehicles and injury to my crew and patients, the fault will certainly lie with me, driving wise - and there's a good chance I will lose my job if it is a biggie.
Finally, it is far more difficult to get a 6 tonne vehicle, that handles like a blancmange, past a moving vehicle, than a stopped one. Last of all, most overtakes involve me using the opposite carriageway with all the danger that involves - not just from oncoming traffic but hidden sideroads and driveways on the other side of the road as you can appreciate. Therefore my time exposed to danger is lessened greatly from a stopped vehicle.
I hope this all helps - and I am genuinely grateful for everyone's questions on this too.
In situations where that is not practical, how would you advise drivers to indicate to you that they've noticed you and are actively looking to give you priority of passage as soon as possible?
But on the aforementioned type of situation, just bang on a left-hand indicator, that would do nicely please thank you
Its not just me then! I get this all the time - typically dozy old gits pulling out onto roundabouts without a glance, or out into the main road from side junctions without a glance. They are either suicidal, blind, or mentally ill. In either case they should be off the road. The only thing you can do is to heavily brake and give them a good ten seconds of horn!
That said, I have grown to expect it now. Especially if I see a grey hair at the wheel of a bland box.
That said, I have grown to expect it now. Especially if I see a grey hair at the wheel of a bland box.
There's something in the water. I see similar with pedestrians and they're not even on their phones. They'll just cross a T-junction (staying on "their side" IYSWIM) without looking for cars turning.
And then there's cyclists who just move out into the road to cycle round a parked car without checking that it's safe to do so. There's a massive assumption that the driver is paying attention.
And then there's cyclists who just move out into the road to cycle round a parked car without checking that it's safe to do so. There's a massive assumption that the driver is paying attention.
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