RE: New Land Rover Discovery teaser

[skyrover]

jhonn said:

skyrover said:

Can you explain to me the achiles heel that both Defenders, Range Rover Classics and Discoverys suffer from? Something that lets Wranglers and suchlike perform better off-road, though limits their load carrying capacity?

Mornin' skyrover - now, lets see, need some caffeine to wake up - ah.. that's better. Right..no more excuses here goes..

I've owned and off-roaded both and found that in some regards the Wrangler (particularly when modded slightly) is more capable in rough, tricky terrain.

One of the reasons for this is that the Wrangler has a much improved front axle set-up. There are two aspects to this that can give it an advantage over the Defender - it has a much better steering lock enabling you to place the vehicle more accurately and avoid trouble - also, the axle articulates more than the single radius arm set-up on the Defender axle allows. The Defender front axle doesn't allow for much articulation at all.

I have found that the Wrangler isn't as happy carrying loads and doesn't tow as well as the Defender - I've attributed that to suspension/linkage arms set-up overall - could be wrong though.

Every vehicle has it's strengths and weaknesses of course.

Spot on... The Defender (and Range Rover Classic//P38 and Discovery 1/2) all share the same inflexible front radius arms. They are great for massive payloads and huge abuse, but don't articulate well over bumps.

Some pics

Defender front radius arms suspension



Jeep 4 link suspension



Demonstrating Defender's lack of front articulation



Compared with wranglers

[TooMany2cvs]

skyrover said:

Demonstrating Defender's lack of front articulation

Tag fixed.

Is that Wrangler absolutely standard...?

Because, if not, then...

[skyrover]

The Defender you posted appears to have a rose jointed front radius arm... a good way to help front flex, but they aren't very strong and wear out in no time.

This Defender has been fitted with a custom 3 link setup, but it is very weak and they have been known to fail and fold under the vehicle during heavy braking



I'm hoping that the Defender's replacement fixes these issues with a setup similar to the jeep.

[JordanTurbo]

TooMany2cvs said:

Is that Wrangler absolutely standard...?

It's plastered in Rough Country stickers, a company that make a lot of suspension parts for Jeeps (among others)

So I'd wager it's not.

Edited by JordanTurbo on Thursday 15th September 19:38

[skyrover]

JordanTurbo said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Is that Wrangler absolutely standard...?

It's plastered in Rough Country stickers, a company that make a lot of suspension parts for Jeeps.

So I'd wager it's not.

There's a good chance it's not... I simply google jeep front suspension flex. The point stands though, that Jeeps front suspension setup is far better offroad than land rovers, at the expense of strength of course.

This is where the Defender may be better suited to 4 link as Land Rover abandons the utility market and focuses on leisure? Can land rover build a strong and sturdy 4 link setup?

[anonymous-user]

skyrover said:

There's a good chance it's not... I simply google jeep front suspension flex. The point stands though, that Jeeps front suspension setup is far better offroad than land rovers, at the expense of strength of course.

This is where the Defender may be better suited to 4 link as Land Rover abandons the utility market and focuses on leisure? Can land rover build a strong and sturdy 4 link setup?

What on earth does any of this have to do with the new Discovery ?????

[NomduJour]

oldtimer2 said:

This is a daft remark

It absolutely isn't - it costs more to engineer around the compromises the off-road ability brings, it adds weight, complexity and so on. Having those abilities is irrelevant to the people engineering the rivals - they're jacked-up estates with a driving position to keep school-run mums happy. If it wasn't a compromise, there wouldn't be 2WD Freelander Sports and Evoques, Sports and Discoveries wouldn't exist without 50/50 torque split and low-range boxes etc.

DonkeyApple said:

On the flip side they now have the F-Pace which should allow them more freedom to deliver a pure road SUV and not feel the need to compromise any fast road dynamics by having the obligation to cater for off-road ability beyond that of competitors such as Porsche or BMW I guess?

This L560 RR coupe thing (on the F Pace platform) is supposed to be the most road-focused model yet. Seems inevitable that the traditional sort of off-road ability will be less important going forward.

skyrover said:

I'm hoping that the Defender's replacement fixes these issues with a setup similar to the jeep

I'm hoping the Defender's replacement has a gilded hot tub and a built-in Breville sandwich toaster for each passenger - suspect my hopes are more likely to reach production.

[DonkeyApple]

I hadn't heard of that thing. In the Autocar article about it they have an entire paragraph about the expectation of it have off road capability as it will wear the LR badge.

I don't see the point of it as a product with the LR badge unless JLR do want to break the ingrained expectation that LRs must be overly superior off-road?

It seems odd to me as they have the Jaguar brand under which they can roll out as many pure road SUVs as they like.

But I've long suspected that TATA works hard to ensure each brand stands on its own rather than necessarily complimenting each other as they want to keep their options wide open in regards to selling one part off or both parts separately.

LR is all going a little too 'new money' with their entire line up now. There isn't a product that isn't somewhat wedged up its own arse but with Asia being growth and Europe not then it's hardly surprising. But rather than the loss of the utility vehicles as damaging LR's rugged, off-road legacy image maybe their loss will have a far larger impact in dislocating the brand from it's classless roots?

[jhonn]

^^^ Good post DA - I hope someone in the Land Rover marketing dept. has adequately considered these same points. Setting a brand like Land Rover's strategy knowing that it will affect the future of the company is bound to give sleepless nights!

[jhonn]

NomduJour said:

I'm hoping the Defender's replacement has a gilded hot tub and a built-in Breville sandwich toaster for each passenger - suspect my hopes are more likely to reach production.

This made me lol . Sadly, I think that you are more likely to be correct than skyrover.

(I would love the next Defender to be even more capable off-road, but that would likely add to the cost and compromise it on-road - who would buy it?)

[DonkeyApple]

Probably only about 7 people. The more 'off-road' you make it the fewer buyers there will be. When you look at the last decade of Defender sales they weren't to serious off-roaders but to the remaining utilities, lifestyle businesses and white collar blokes who wanted the fun of the Defender image.

Serious off-roaders want a cheap base vehicle from which they can buy, make and fit enhancements. JLR can never again build a cheap car that isn't high volume.

I think the new Defender will pick up exactly where the old realistically left off and be a fun, versatile, lifestyle vehicle but with a bigger profit margin. And I think that is the only market space it can sell in. The days of selling to farmers, colonials, MOD, utilities is long gone.

But, I would love it if it used mechanical engineering to make it good on road and great off road and not all the electronic wizardry used today. It would be lovely if it was hose out, basic interior, clever adaptable space behind the twin cab car bit, where you could bolt on and off different units for different purposes etc but ditch all the gizmos and make a real marketing song and dance about a back to basics fun lifestyle car.

However, my gut tells me it will be a £70k computerised pastiche of what went before.

[TooMany2cvs]

RSK21 said:

What on earth does any of this have to do with the new Discovery ?????

Do we actually have more than one single undisguised photo and an app-folding rear seat yet? No? Then come back to us when we do.

[DonkeyApple]

TooMany2cvs said:

RSK21 said:

What on earth does any of this have to do with the new Discovery ?????

Do we actually have more than one single undisguised photo and an app-folding rear seat yet? No? Then come back to us when we do.

It's also how conversations tend to work outside of North Korea.

[anonymous-user]

TooMany2cvs said:

Do we actually have more than one single undisguised photo and an app-folding rear seat yet? No? Then come back to us when we do.

Ok here I am coming back to you.

Have you seen the newest videos posted . Much more visibility of the cars shape, interior and capability.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

It's also how conversations tend to work outside of North Korea.

You,ll have to help me out on that one DA.

Is Kim-Jong one of new monied target audience you mention or something ?

Personally as a non Defender Land Rover owner for many years I've just been a bit marked by the excess of snide comments made throughout this thread and the constant belittling of what is in fact a great British success story from certain quarters.

Hdy ho there are no doubt much more important things in life to worry about though I know.

[oldtimer2]

oldtimer2 said:

NomduJour said:

Off-road ability is the albatross around Land Rover's neck - without it, it's not a Land Rover so they have to engineer it in despite the various penalties and compromises.

This is a daft remark. Off road ability is part and parcel of the all round package that Land Rover has always offered - it is not an albatross or a bug, but a feature inherent in the product. It is something you take for granted just like towing capacity, something that has always been there. The difference between the original and current offerings is the extra comfort and all round capability you get today. Land Rover has survived and prospered because it grew out of its farmyard origins to serve much wider markets than its originators imagined. This is just as well because if it had not it would today be just a distant memory.

I repeat my earlier comment. Land Rover was and remains a business and a brand that focuses on its all round, all terrain ability. Like most brands it has expanded its product range where it can find sales that deliver profits. In contrast the Jaguar F-Pace is described by Jaguar as a crossover not as an SUV. There are suggestions that we will see a smaller Jaguar crossover similar in size to the Discovery Sport. No doubt that model, if it appears, will dispense with some of the engineering found in a Land Rover.

As for the Defender replacement that, we are told, will be a dual purpose vehicle. Donkey Apple is right to point out that the original customer base for the Series Land Rovers and 90/110/130 Defenders hardly exists any more. Land Rover annual sales were relatively small - c30,000 units annually in the early years rising later to c50,000 after capacity was raised in the late 1960s. Many of those needs are now met by cheaper pick ups. Building the business case for the replacement is, no doubt, exercising minds right now. Perhaps that is where the new plant in Slovakia will have a role to play.

[markh450]

I have a disco 4 HSE which I use as intended, towing boats, cars, bikes, caravans, occasional trip for work down a quarry and the messiest of all transporting kids. I regularly have the rear seats down and the MTB in the back. Everything is covered in seat covers / boot covers.

Can't say I am at all taken with this new one so far. between myself and my father we have owned (all from new) 4 P38 range rovers, 3 L322 range rovers, 3 older shape range rover sports, 1 new shape, 1 disco 3 and 1 disco 4. + numerous old series landrovers and defenders.

Following good experience of all of the above, the feature I most desire for all of the above is the ability for the electronic functions to continue functioning. I'm sorry but all this tech just fills me with dread.

An automatic seat fold function is no use without an automatic 'remove the crusty old kids sandwiches/ plastic toys, sticky sweets etc etc from said seat before squashing' function.

I hope to be proved wrong but at the mo a nearly new disco 4 landmark is looking favourite for me until the new defender comes out which will be hopefully more like the original disco 3 / 4.

I think landrover are missing the point, their cars have been successful because they are solid off road vehicles at heart with an exceptional luxury makeover. This new disco appears to be a luxury vehicle at heart trying its best to appear rough and tough. Though maybe that's a reflection on the new target audience??

[anonymous-user]

markh450 said:

I have a disco 4 HSE which I use as intended, towing boats, cars, bikes, caravans, occasional trip for work down a quarry and the messiest of all transporting kids. I regularly have the rear seats down and the MTB in the back. Everything is covered in seat covers / boot covers.

Can't say I am at all taken with this new one so far. between myself and my father we have owned (all from new) 4 P38 range rovers, 3 L322 range rovers, 3 older shape range rover sports, 1 new shape, 1 disco 3 and 1 disco 4. + numerous old series landrovers and defenders.

Following good experience of all of the above, the feature I most desire for all of the above is the ability for the electronic functions to continue functioning. I'm sorry but all this tech just fills me with dread.

An automatic seat fold function is no use without an automatic 'remove the crusty old kids sandwiches/ plastic toys, sticky sweets etc etc from said seat before squashing' function.

I hope to be proved wrong but at the mo a nearly new disco 4 landmark is looking favourite for me until the new defender comes out which will be hopefully more like the original disco 3 / 4.

I think landrover are missing the point, their cars have been successful because they are solid off road vehicles at heart with an exceptional luxury makeover. This new disco appears to be a luxury vehicle at heart trying its best to appear rough and tough. Though maybe that's a reflection on the new target audience??

Devils advocate question I appreciate but why did you choose the HSE over the GS ?

As for app controlled seats I'm assuming they will be an option rather than standard fit.

Elsewhere on he D5 front it has been reported that there is more storage and nooks and crannies than on any previous iteration and the two additional clips released and now featured on PH would seem to show the vehicle being very heavily pitched at the practical, adventuring family, so I'm not sure the latest version will be appealing to different audiences than the D4.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 16th September 13:56

[JordanTurbo]

markh450 said:

An automatic seat fold function is no use without an automatic 'remove the crusty old kids sandwiches/ plastic toys, sticky sweets etc etc from said seat before squashing' function.

As an owner of a Discovery 2 and father of 3 boys aged 6 and below, this was exactly my first thought when I found out about the app function.

Equally, I hardly ever have a totaly empty boot. So always need to move/remove at least a couple of items before deploying the 6th and 7th seats.

IMO the idea is clever, but would be pointless in real life use. Hopfully it's just one part of an app that has more useful functionality, like warming up and defrosting the car on a winter's morning etc...

Edited by JordanTurbo on Friday 16th September 15:04

[Olf]

Even if I have to move all of the clutter first I will still appreciate a single button press to then deploy the seats. Like I said - 3rd row in the current model is a right faff.