RE: America versus Europe: PH Blog
Discussion
"Frankly I feel safer when there's an opportunity to manage your separation fore, aft and to the sides by managing your speed and lane choices with careful forward planning."
Is it still the case that you can't go on motorways as a learner? Can't expect people to do something they were never taught about or tested on.
Motorway driving should potentially be a whole separate driving exam; if it is different/dangerous enough your not allowed to learn there, then getting free license to join one unsupervised for the first time surely isn't right?
Is it still the case that you can't go on motorways as a learner? Can't expect people to do something they were never taught about or tested on.
Motorway driving should potentially be a whole separate driving exam; if it is different/dangerous enough your not allowed to learn there, then getting free license to join one unsupervised for the first time surely isn't right?
Edited by Mitch87 on Tuesday 13th September 13:31
Dan,
Though I agree with the central tenet of your piece — that Smart Motorways are mind-numbing — I'm not sure the Europe vs America comparison is valid.
The US freeway network is relatively unmanaged compared to ours, with no cameras, few variable limits / lane control and relying on old fashioned police cars for enforcement. Speeds will vary with traffic density as they will anywhere, but also on how draconian each state's punishments are for speeding. (In Virginia everyone travels at 79mph because 80 is deemed as reckless driving).
On major road systems in or around cities, beyond traffic volumes, two factors combine to make the speeds similar in all lanes: you can pass either side and trucks are not speed-restricted. So, it is possible to make progress but there's a fine line between opportunistic lane-changing and weaving. Now, this might not be safer (I believe it isn't as the US has more fatalities per head of population — 5,000 pa, vs the UK's 500), but it certainly isn't so mind-numbing.
So, while we may be moving away from the strict lane disciple on European motorways (which is really only away from the cities), I don't believe we're heading towards the American model, because it's not the torpor you imply.
Though I agree with the central tenet of your piece — that Smart Motorways are mind-numbing — I'm not sure the Europe vs America comparison is valid.
The US freeway network is relatively unmanaged compared to ours, with no cameras, few variable limits / lane control and relying on old fashioned police cars for enforcement. Speeds will vary with traffic density as they will anywhere, but also on how draconian each state's punishments are for speeding. (In Virginia everyone travels at 79mph because 80 is deemed as reckless driving).
On major road systems in or around cities, beyond traffic volumes, two factors combine to make the speeds similar in all lanes: you can pass either side and trucks are not speed-restricted. So, it is possible to make progress but there's a fine line between opportunistic lane-changing and weaving. Now, this might not be safer (I believe it isn't as the US has more fatalities per head of population — 5,000 pa, vs the UK's 500), but it certainly isn't so mind-numbing.
So, while we may be moving away from the strict lane disciple on European motorways (which is really only away from the cities), I don't believe we're heading towards the American model, because it's not the torpor you imply.
Debaser said:
At least it's not as bad as Australia. Yet.
Indeed. Just today, I've been in a discussion about implementing Smart Mway to one of the new stretches being designed/built. Those doing the implementing are almost evangelical in their belief. To be fair, one of the first stretches to be completed will be one of the more notorious bits, but the zeal is almost tangible.I agree that smart motorways are bloody awful but I don't know where the love for European motorways and hate of American ones come from. I guess it's all just personal experience but from the countries I've been to Germany is great, France and Poland are average and Belgium is f
king awful. As for the USA driving wise I can only speak for California and Nevada but outside of rush hour I've found them easily flowing and you can happily drive over the limit providing you're not reckless even if there are police around the same way you can do 80 here and not get pulled over.
Edited to add I found the parts of motorway I've driven in Canada enjoyable, similar to that in Germany.
king awful. As for the USA driving wise I can only speak for California and Nevada but outside of rush hour I've found them easily flowing and you can happily drive over the limit providing you're not reckless even if there are police around the same way you can do 80 here and not get pulled over. Edited to add I found the parts of motorway I've driven in Canada enjoyable, similar to that in Germany.
powerstroke said:
JoeMarano said:
Build more roads. It's not like we have Afghan or Iraq to worry about now so let's just pump the cash into something for the future!
This , they talk about How important HS2 is but goods and services need to be moved about people don't !! make the desk jockeys work from home scrap the train set and build a proper East west motorway to replace the A14 and dual trunk roads like the A49...In the UK, the fact remains that for far too many workers and services in the UK, their efficient and everyday life are impacted by congestion and inadequate infrastructure. You can do want you want with public transport and speed limits, but the simple fact remains that any given road has a capacity limit and beyond that, the only logical solution is to augment with other, alternative routes.
Most of the camera crap is forward facing only so if you ride a motorbike it's largely irrelevant and you can use (un)common sense to travel to the conditions without fear of an automated fine landing on your doormat. That said, there's always the possibility of being pulled in by the law if that speed slightly differs from what the man would prefer us to bimble along at, but with cutbacks the way they are that is less and less likely (and if you seriously can't spot that 'surreptitious' nearly new unmarked estate/large saloon travelling bang on the limit in lane 1, 2-up with extra lights fore and aft and - here's the kicker - a high-vis wearing traffic plod at the wheel - you deserve what's coming). I actually find it's often safer, as the OP mentions, to get away from the smartphone fiddlers who are 'obeying the speed limit' but have no awareness of what's around them.
We call them cages for a reason.
We call them cages for a reason.
Striple said:
i went on a speed awareness course the other day and they were telling us that some motorway cats eyes have speed monitoring apparatus.These relay back to the automated system controlling the speed on the gantries. Seemed a bit too hi-tech for the uk, i thought.
http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/cateye.htmnever heard much about them though, doubt they are widespread at all
my favourite part which i got a good laugh from: "Used in the US, the studs are claimed to have reduced accidents by 80 per cent."
hufggfg said:
Dan, in some way I think you've missed the point.
Totally agree that driving on completely packed roads with everyone travelling at 60mph is soul destroying, but given the rise in the number of cars on the road (particularly on certain motorways), the choice isn't:
- Nice flowing roads of varying speeds vs. managed motorways with controlled speeds.
it is:
- Managed motorways of controlled speeds vs. gridlock traffic.
Dunno about that. If you have a 5 x 2 lane motorway restricted to a speed that's lower than what 95% of traffic would drive on their own, with 100% coverage by average speed cameras, you've effectively reduced it to a 2 x 2 lane motorway (given adequate lane discipline) until gridlock actually happens. Totally agree that driving on completely packed roads with everyone travelling at 60mph is soul destroying, but given the rise in the number of cars on the road (particularly on certain motorways), the choice isn't:
- Nice flowing roads of varying speeds vs. managed motorways with controlled speeds.
it is:
- Managed motorways of controlled speeds vs. gridlock traffic.
PomBstard said:
Debaser said:
At least it's not as bad as Australia. Yet.
Indeed. Just today, I've been in a discussion about implementing Smart Mway to one of the new stretches being designed/built. Those doing the implementing are almost evangelical in their belief. To be fair, one of the first stretches to be completed will be one of the more notorious bits, but the zeal is almost tangible.Digga said:
Agreed. More roads. Heaven only knows what might al;ready have been achieved in that direction, had so much not been squandered on some of these more dubious projects.
In the UK, the fact remains that for far too many workers and services in the UK, their efficient and everyday life are impacted by congestion and inadequate infrastructure. You can do want you want with public transport and speed limits, but the simple fact remains that any given road has a capacity limit and beyond that, the only logical solution is to augment with other, alternative routes.
It's a nice aspiration to have, but there wont be any new motorways being built soon. The task at present is to manage the strategic road network that already exists, and try to maximise the traffic flow within it. When you consider that there has been a 16 billion road miles travelled increase from 2012 - 2016, you get an idea of how much more traffic volume the network needs to handle.In the UK, the fact remains that for far too many workers and services in the UK, their efficient and everyday life are impacted by congestion and inadequate infrastructure. You can do want you want with public transport and speed limits, but the simple fact remains that any given road has a capacity limit and beyond that, the only logical solution is to augment with other, alternative routes.
The previous two threads associated with articles Dan wrote, have lots of info about why things are like they are, also covering the "just build more roads" stance. Unfortunately highway maintenance doesn't currently get afforded the luxury of a blank cheque book like HS2 does.
I'm still convinced that the reduced speed sections when no obstructions or heavy traffic are present is down to the UK failing to meet its CO2 reduction targets in other areas due to lack of investment. The upgraded, 4 lane section of the M1 was meant to have a 80mph limit when it had the road works removed. Obviously the CO2 targets wouldn't have been the only thing, perceived road safety and income from enforcement camera would also have been considered.
As i work in the transport planning field, the future of travel is unfortunately bleak in many parts of the country. Looking at the planned developments, growing population and then trying to figure out where all these new trips are going to go, all whilst many parts of the country facing dwindling public transport/infrastructure investment. At times, there are simply no other options.
Looking at models of the 2031 road network it is quite sobering. SMART motorways are a neccessity. Although I do appreciate the dangers of everyone driving next to each other at 50mph. I commute round the M25 every day and the number of near misses I see are increasing......
Looking at models of the 2031 road network it is quite sobering. SMART motorways are a neccessity. Although I do appreciate the dangers of everyone driving next to each other at 50mph. I commute round the M25 every day and the number of near misses I see are increasing......
It's almost a classic conundrum:
a steadily increasing driving population using the same area of road surface versus the abhorrence of all things tax related.
Having driven in Europe and the UK as well as America, I do not see the likening; these are vastly different motoring environments. Stereotypical thinking and condescension towards all things American doesn't penetrate the reality.
While the US suffers from almost-constant gridlock when using the larger Interstates in urban areas (e.g. practically the whole of the state of California), anyone with a whit of 'local knowledge' travels quite nicely on the countryside roads, avoiding the crowds, and making good time doing so.
We live on the Gulf coast, and our non-Interstate highway system is good, so that movement cross-country is open and relaxed. Our normal, run-of-the-mill country highways are similar to the UK's A-road category.
As an example of road reality versus mass-road-think, several years ago, when we were under threat of one of our many hurricanes coming ashore, we evacuated our home and headed north, away from the shore.
The local Interstate which serves the area was jammed to a standstill, with hundreds of thousand people trying to reach safety from the storm and all them headed away from the coast. Many people ran out of gas while grid-locked.
On the other hand, we left the area using the local countryside road grid, which was completely open, and we reached safety easily; we could see, in the distance, the thousands of cars jamming the Interstate to a standstill.
There is no substitute for thoughtfulness or paying taxes properly applied to the common good.
a steadily increasing driving population using the same area of road surface versus the abhorrence of all things tax related.
Having driven in Europe and the UK as well as America, I do not see the likening; these are vastly different motoring environments. Stereotypical thinking and condescension towards all things American doesn't penetrate the reality.
While the US suffers from almost-constant gridlock when using the larger Interstates in urban areas (e.g. practically the whole of the state of California), anyone with a whit of 'local knowledge' travels quite nicely on the countryside roads, avoiding the crowds, and making good time doing so.
We live on the Gulf coast, and our non-Interstate highway system is good, so that movement cross-country is open and relaxed. Our normal, run-of-the-mill country highways are similar to the UK's A-road category.
As an example of road reality versus mass-road-think, several years ago, when we were under threat of one of our many hurricanes coming ashore, we evacuated our home and headed north, away from the shore.
The local Interstate which serves the area was jammed to a standstill, with hundreds of thousand people trying to reach safety from the storm and all them headed away from the coast. Many people ran out of gas while grid-locked.
On the other hand, we left the area using the local countryside road grid, which was completely open, and we reached safety easily; we could see, in the distance, the thousands of cars jamming the Interstate to a standstill.
There is no substitute for thoughtfulness or paying taxes properly applied to the common good.
What happens is they highlight the drivers who are a bit st.
Ultimately most of the population is a bit thick. Now you've put those thick people in charge of a car, and restricted the ability of good drivers to not be near them. So they are exposed for what they are. They have always been there. Just hidden.
Autonomous cars are definitely the future for journeys that involve congested areas. They'll be much more efficient.
I'm pretty sure most drivers are not capable of grasping the concepts in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
t.Ultimately most of the population is a bit thick. Now you've put those thick people in charge of a car, and restricted the ability of good drivers to not be near them. So they are exposed for what they are. They have always been there. Just hidden.
Autonomous cars are definitely the future for journeys that involve congested areas. They'll be much more efficient.
I'm pretty sure most drivers are not capable of grasping the concepts in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE
fuelracer496 said:
It's a nice aspiration to have, but there wont be any new motorways being built soon. The task at present is to manage the strategic road network that already exists, and try to maximise the traffic flow within it. When you consider that there has been a 16 billion road miles travelled increase from 2012 - 2016, you get an idea of how much more traffic volume the network needs to handle.
The previous two threads associated with articles Dan wrote, have lots of info about why things are like they are, also covering the "just build more roads" stance. Unfortunately highway maintenance doesn't currently get afforded the luxury of a blank cheque book like HS2 does.
I hear you, but the approach is disastrously wrong.The previous two threads associated with articles Dan wrote, have lots of info about why things are like they are, also covering the "just build more roads" stance. Unfortunately highway maintenance doesn't currently get afforded the luxury of a blank cheque book like HS2 does.
We constantly hear about UK productivity, well we are all effectively in a work environment where our shoe laces are knotted together and all we can do is shuffle from place to place. The effective rate of road construction in our near-European neighbours simply dwarfs our piffling efforts. Brexit aside, this is going to become a major obstacle to FDI and maintaining the competitiveness (let alone the just-in-time supply chains) of existing industry, foreign-owned or otherwise.
Transport, like machinery, is an investment; it brings huge benefits to both the business and leisure economy and the quality of life of residents. Granted, some NIMBYs are always going to be put out, but the greater good is huge.
Digga said:
I hear you, but the approach is disastrously wrong.
We constantly hear about UK productivity, well we are all effectively in a work environment where our shoe laces are knotted together and all we can do is shuffle from place to place. The effective rate of road construction in our near-European neighbours simply dwarfs our piffling efforts. Brexit aside, this is going to become a major obstacle to FDI and maintaining the competitiveness (let alone the just-in-time supply chains) of existing industry, foreign-owned or otherwise.
Transport, like machinery, is an investment; it brings huge benefits to both the business and leisure economy and the quality of life of residents. Granted, some NIMBYs are always going to be put out, but the greater good is huge.
I don't disagree, but this is a function of the cards we are dealt each year. Funding is split into asset type and schemes chosen based on a risk ranking (something that left alone which might fall down, will be higher up the risk ladder than a small defect somewhere else). The money being spent at the moment, in the grand scheme of things, is small change. £50m per year to look after over 1000km of strategic road network, doesn't allow us to re-engineer the entire network to a standard that meets or surpasses those in Europe.We constantly hear about UK productivity, well we are all effectively in a work environment where our shoe laces are knotted together and all we can do is shuffle from place to place. The effective rate of road construction in our near-European neighbours simply dwarfs our piffling efforts. Brexit aside, this is going to become a major obstacle to FDI and maintaining the competitiveness (let alone the just-in-time supply chains) of existing industry, foreign-owned or otherwise.
Transport, like machinery, is an investment; it brings huge benefits to both the business and leisure economy and the quality of life of residents. Granted, some NIMBYs are always going to be put out, but the greater good is huge.
For things to change, the powers that be would need a step change from funding the money pits such as HS2. The trouble is, as was mentioned in the previous thread, even then (if we had access to mega bucks) we wouldn't be building new motorways or widening the existing ones. The cost of land purchase alone would rule that out. Hence things like SMART, where incremental upgrades of the existing infrastructure are carried out to maximize the throughput of the network. It might not be exciting or 'rewarding' for drivers, but it keeps the network flowing at a time when there isn't the funding to carry out the unicorn type schemes mentioned by others.
Completely agree with the blog. Mind numbing trundling. 'Smart' motorways means cameras and zombie drivers. I guess it's a step in the direction of driverless cars and progressively more and more control first beaten out of the driver by 'Smart' roads and then (the authorities hope) by the automated car.
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