RE: Where's the real racing car Jaguar? PH Blog
Discussion
Mr Tidy said:
I'm not sure entering Formula E is a great idea when you don't make an electric car - it's a bit like entering Formula 1 when you don't even make a sports car!
Oh yes, they tried that but it didn't go too well IIRC!
Could be preparing the ground? http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-ele...Oh yes, they tried that but it didn't go too well IIRC!
dino ferrana said:
Mr Tidy said:
I'm not sure entering Formula E is a great idea when you don't make an electric car - it's a bit like entering Formula 1 when you don't even make a sports car!
Oh yes, they tried that but it didn't go too well IIRC!
Could be preparing the ground? http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/all-ele...Oh yes, they tried that but it didn't go too well IIRC!
73RS said:
PHers are, let's face it, dinasaurs. Young people don't want cars, they want to play with smartphones while travelling in a remote control Uber - and they are right, it will be safer, faster.....just duller, but then again they will be on Tindr, so maybe even that's not true. Face it, all our PH cars will be outlawed within years, confined to noise reduced track days and classic car shows. Go out and drive while you can, it's time not Gatsos that will kill us......
Totally agree I'm in the motor industry, with car insurance as high as it is for young drivers and cities getting ever harder to drive in, the latest generation of drivers are the first to buck the trend and aren't interested in cars. When I was 17-18 it was a badge of honour to get your driving licence, now in my office many under 30's haven't taken their driving test. They don't need a car to physically visit friends, they spend hours on social media. Remember we met girls at nightclubs, well nightclubs have all but disappeared and the big social changes are affecting the way we work and play. In the past I'd jump into the company car and go to a meeting. Now all meetings out of the physical office are skyped, no need for the company car. The role of the car is changing and maybe Jaguar see that, at 60k for a decent F Type, the affordability model would suggest an older driver.I was of the generation who got their degree's without been saddled with 40k of debt, now earn a decent salary in your 20's or 30's and you'll start paying off that debt, plus trying to get on the housing ladder and start a family, not going to be left any money for an F type!
Matt Bird said:
Macboy said:
While I understand the logic, the costs of a winning GT3 programme would be huge and no one at Jaguar wants to see the brand as also rans, repeatedly beaten by on-road rivals from Porsche, Audi and M-B. In Formula-E they can at least link to a future-focussed marketing message at the same time that they are actually trying to win. No need to try to take 600kg from an F-type's lardy 1750kg kerb weight and get its non-motorsport capable engine to a point of competitiveness within the GT rules.
Now, I'm no fan of Formula-E but imaging the board presentation to get this signed off versus the one to get a "maybe come 10th GT3 programme" agreed it's easy to see why this is the chosen route. Racing may be in their DNA (or whatever BS they use to justify wheeling our D-types and E-types at classic meetings) but no one at Jag is agreeing to cut marketing budgets focussed on selling cars now in favour of a few enthusiasts seeing an F-type mid-pack at Oulton park I'd wager.
ETA: And just because the renders look nice and the classic sponsor livery makes the heart beat fast does not mean it will be easy/possible to make it into a competitive GT3 car...
Some very valid points! It just seems a shame when Bentley can make it viable (and not be tremendously successful) that Jaguar can't. The car would at least be a Jaguar too rather than just another Formula E racer. Let's see how it pans out, I want Jaguar to do well but was just hoping it was in another race series! Now, I'm no fan of Formula-E but imaging the board presentation to get this signed off versus the one to get a "maybe come 10th GT3 programme" agreed it's easy to see why this is the chosen route. Racing may be in their DNA (or whatever BS they use to justify wheeling our D-types and E-types at classic meetings) but no one at Jag is agreeing to cut marketing budgets focussed on selling cars now in favour of a few enthusiasts seeing an F-type mid-pack at Oulton park I'd wager.
ETA: And just because the renders look nice and the classic sponsor livery makes the heart beat fast does not mean it will be easy/possible to make it into a competitive GT3 car...
Edited by Macboy on Thursday 15th September 14:28
I did the renders in the article (a few years back now) and in subsequent discussions I've had with various people, it was raised more than a few times that the F-type might not be the greatest base on which to develop a competitive GT3 car. That said, there's a swiss GT team, Emil Frey that have been racing/developing the XK GT3 for the past few years and although the project has been a bit on/off they still intend to homologate an F-type GT3 to race as early as next year ( http://sportscar365.com/industry/emil-frey-plannin... ). Whether it reaches the track or not depends on Jaguar giving the project it's blessing and no doubt some funding. As a side note, once any team homologates a chassis for GT3 no other team can homologate that particular car again; i.e. if Emil Frey get the F-type GT3 track worthy then they will be the sole manufacturers of the car; other teams may buy customer cars from them but they can not develop their own f-type, so Jaguar would want the swiss team to get it right.
As for Formula E, I understand it's not to everyones taste. I've been lucky enough to shoot both of the London rounds so far I dont mind admitting I really like it. I think there is a tendancy to compare it with the motorsport norm a little too much. It is vastly different to what a lot of motorsport fans know and love but then it serves a very different purpose but one that I think is still very important. Firstly in the development of the EV tech. Like it or not, its coming to road cars and Jaguar is purely getting itself ahead of the curve, creating industrial relationships and learning the knowledge they will need to apply to their road cars. Secondly, FE is a marketing department's wet-dream; instead of arriving at some freeezing air-field miles from anywhere it takes the product to the masses (a lot of which have never seen motorsport) and puts on races in the some of the worlds biggest cities, a feat no other motorsport series could even hope to achieve nowadays. FE is warranted in its own right, it serves a purpose that, as it stands, no other motorsport can.
It is a shame Jaguar seem to have chosen one over the other. Matt, you point to Bentley's GT3 car but I think with the experience VAG have with GT3's (Audi R8, Hurucan, etc.) perhaps the Bentley didnt require the investment a 'first' GT3 would??
babbedyboobedy said:
I'm starting to get a little tired of hearing people discuss what's going to bring in younger buyers,
or to complain that only old people are buying sports cars.
It has nothing to do with motorsport for me. If someone made a basic, but beautiful sports car that you didn't need to be a junior stockbroker to afford, I'd have got one, as it is, I have classic cars.
What are the options today for an ordinary young person? And I'm going to stretch that definition to a fairly well paid one, let's say a mid 30-35k salary, who might actually get approved for a car payment of £400 pm for instance.
I appreciate the concept of the GT86, but it's a visual mess.
The latest MX-5 is criminally ugly, and the Fiat 124 is no improvement.
There isn't really anything that entices me currently, and every emerging sports car that initially promises to be "affordable"
turns out to have a 60k plus list price. I'm sorry, but that doesn't constitute as affordable for me.
The opel concept currently looks promising, but will it materialise?
The Alfa 4C, the new TVR, every Porsche (4 cylinder or not), they're all aimed at a similar demographic of "50+ year old with surplus buy-to-let cash to burn, and a youth to rekindle."
Fair enough, only old people can afford them, that's the way it is. But I wish we'd stop fuelling this infuriating myth that young people aren't interested in these brands and cars; that as an age group we're some kind of mystical Gen Y that needs a special App, or marketing stunt to beguile us, or worse still that there's something we'd rather be doing with our incomprehensible hipster youth values than buying cars at all.
My Cerbera cost £48,500 when it was new in 1999. In the same year, the average UK wage was apparently £20,800 p.a.or to complain that only old people are buying sports cars.
It has nothing to do with motorsport for me. If someone made a basic, but beautiful sports car that you didn't need to be a junior stockbroker to afford, I'd have got one, as it is, I have classic cars.
What are the options today for an ordinary young person? And I'm going to stretch that definition to a fairly well paid one, let's say a mid 30-35k salary, who might actually get approved for a car payment of £400 pm for instance.
I appreciate the concept of the GT86, but it's a visual mess.
The latest MX-5 is criminally ugly, and the Fiat 124 is no improvement.
There isn't really anything that entices me currently, and every emerging sports car that initially promises to be "affordable"
turns out to have a 60k plus list price. I'm sorry, but that doesn't constitute as affordable for me.
The opel concept currently looks promising, but will it materialise?
The Alfa 4C, the new TVR, every Porsche (4 cylinder or not), they're all aimed at a similar demographic of "50+ year old with surplus buy-to-let cash to burn, and a youth to rekindle."
Fair enough, only old people can afford them, that's the way it is. But I wish we'd stop fuelling this infuriating myth that young people aren't interested in these brands and cars; that as an age group we're some kind of mystical Gen Y that needs a special App, or marketing stunt to beguile us, or worse still that there's something we'd rather be doing with our incomprehensible hipster youth values than buying cars at all.
A Sierra Cosworth cost £20,000 in 1990 when the average wage was £13,760.
Fast sporty cars have always been out of reach of someone on an equivalent of £35k salary.
I think they've gone for the 'easy' option; which being harsh is a cop out. They can compete, and if unsuccessful, it's not going to really harm their sales.
As others have said, a GT3 programme would be most welcome; up against their road competitors - but maybe that's why they don't want to go down that route.
As others have said, a GT3 programme would be most welcome; up against their road competitors - but maybe that's why they don't want to go down that route.
Personally I still have my fingers crossed for an F-Type on the Blancpain grid next year. http://sportscar365.com/industry/emil-frey-plannin... this is a glimpse of hope, and along with a recent team comment at the BES, "when we change to a new Jaguar for 2017..." Jag Vs Bentley 2017
Housey said:
Totally agree, it's become sad how they seem to run to the most PC version of motorsport they can find rather than where they should be. Frankly I detest Formula E with it's whiney, boring looking and crap track formula. I get we need to move with the new stuff, but play in the right place please.
Quite.GT3 F-Type, now that is a good idea.
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