RE: Porsche 911 R: PH Videoblog

[CS Garth]

Slippydiff said:

CS Garth said:

You could certainty argue that it is about consistently whacking down lots of cash. I'd see it more as consistently choosing Porsche products and showing brand loyalty

There are numerous buyers of 991 GT3/RS (and all the previous iterations) who didn't get an R allocation. However individuals who bought 918's seemed to magically "automatically" make the list.....

I think I'd be pretty pissed if I'd bought a Mk 1 996 GT3 back in 1999, then a Mk2, then a GT3RS, moved on to a 997 and done the same with both generations of 997, then bought a 991 GT3, had my engine go bang (or the car off the road for many months waiting for a replacement engine) then traded my "soiled" GT3 in for 991 GT3 RS, only to be told that despite having spent the thick end of £1M on the brand over the last 15 years, I wasn't considered worthy of a 991 R.
That's bad form IMO.
But the bottom line is Porsche AG are making good profits and don't (and haven't for quite some time now) care about their customers (loyal or not), whether that comes back to bite them in the arse in years to come, only time will tell.

I would be annoyed too but I would sleep well knowing I had owned many iterations of a great car and would try not act like a spolit brat. Shirley the alternative is that Porsche have to build a car for everyone who wants one and that looks a bit unlikely. There will always be disappointed customers out there with a limited run

[foxsasha]

Slippydiff said:

There are numerous buyers of 991 GT3/RS (and all the previous iterations) who didn't get an R allocation. However individuals who bought 918's seemed to magically "automatically" make the list.....

I think I'd be pretty pissed if I'd bought a Mk 1 996 GT3 back in 1999, then a Mk2, then a GT3RS, moved on to a 997 and done the same with both generations of 997, then bought a 991 GT3, had my engine go bang (or the car off the road for many months waiting for a replacement engine) then traded my "soiled" GT3 in for 991 GT3 RS, only to be told that despite having spent the thick end of £1M on the brand over the last 15 years, I wasn't considered worthy of a 991 R.
That's bad form IMO.
But the bottom line is Porsche AG are making good profits and don't (and haven't for quite some time now) care about their customers (loyal or not), whether that comes back to bite them in the arse in years to come, only time will tell.

It's a mugs game but evidently there are those who accept it.

[Slippydiff]

CS Garth said:

I would be annoyed too but I would sleep well knowing I had owned many iterations of a great car and would try not act like a spolit brat. Shirley the alternative is that Porsche have to build a car for everyone who wants one and that looks a bit unlikely. There will always be disappointed customers out there with a limited run

I think spoilt brat is a tad harsh. I've never purchased a new Porsche, but I've owned 4 964 RS's, a 993 RS, 4 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3RS, 2 996 GT2's and 2 997 GT3's, and having done so I feel no sense of entitlement whatsoever, I don't consider myself a spoilt brat, merely an enthusiast that loves driving his cars.
But had I bought the majority (or indeed all of those cars) new, I suspect I probably would feel my local OPC (with whom I'd hopefully have nurtured a very good relationship with) at least owed me the courtesy of a chance to purchase the newest toy Porsche were offering to the market.
If that courtesy hadn't been extended, and I then saw the 2-3 cars that had been allocated to the dealer subsequently appeared on the market (at the same dealer) for a massive premium, I'd be both irritated and somewhat frustrated.

But I wouldn't be irritated by the fact that someone had made a fast buck, rather I'd be pissed off that as as enthusiast I've missed out the the chance to own/drive what purports to be a special car.

As for the assertion that having missed out on an R I'd go out and buy a lesser model in the range, no chance. That's akin to suggesting that a potential 918 owner (having just established he won't be getting an allocation) would promptly nip down to his local OPC and order a highly specced 991 Turbo S.
Not going to happen.

[CS Garth]

It probably was, apologies. But is it all not a bit hypothetical for you and me as until such point as we find ourselves in that position I find it difficult to to start having a go at Porsche although if others feel more strongly I respect that.

The latter comment was more directed at second car choices rather than a replacement for the car you couldn't get ie I wouldn't not buy a macan for my wife if I couldn't get an R.

Edited by CS Garth on Friday 23 September 23:35

[CS Garth]

Ps awesome car history!

[mclwanB]

Digga said:

Quickmoose said:

So was the original 1960's R also available to everyone? was it limited?
Have Porsche only just now started making limited editions from their standard models?

no.
924 Carrera GT anyone?

I think one of the issues is that there are no stripped-down, performance focused, manual 911 variants available to buy. Might, of course, change with the 991.2 GT3.

If you are thinking that the 991.2 GT3 isn't already sold out to speculators- sorry, preferred customers- you're in cloud cuckoo land!

[chappardababbar]

griffgrog said:

Here's a thought.... If the supply of 991R, GT3, RS, GT4 etc was as unrestricted as the regular car, would they sell many more? Would all these people complaining that they are being denied a car actually place an order if they were able to?

Instead, would the unrestricted numbers and 'normal' depreciation curves mean that they might even sell a few less of the halo cars than they currently do?

I bet quite a few of the people complaining that they can't get their hands on these halo cars, when faced with losing five figures a year in depreciation wouldn't actually buy the cars.

It's because they're limited and currently appreciate that people want them and not because they are better drivers cars. I'd argue that my C2 is the better car than either the GT3 or the R for anyone who actually wants to drive the car for thousands of miles a year.

Spot on

[foxsasha]

chappardababbar said:

Spot on

You don't think the cars would stand on their own feet? What competes with the GT4 at that price point? Or GT3 or RS. Or R?

The competition is there but Porsche produce a highly attractive option for those after that type of car at those price points.

[gigglebug]

Slippydiff said:

As for the assertion that having missed out on an R I'd go out and buy a lesser model in the range, no chance. That's akin to suggesting that a potential 918 owner (having just established he won't be getting an allocation) would promptly nip down to his local OPC and order a highly specced 991 Turbo S.
Not going to happen.

It's not the same at all is it. You've used a completely irrational comparison to try and prove a point. The 918 had a list price starting around 625K and is a completely different ownership proposition as regards to both affordability and what it represents to any of Porsches other current-ish road cars so no, in that situation a potential customer probably wouldn't be looking at another car in the range. The 991R however only started at 135k so is on a completely different level to the 918 as regards to it's initial cost, it's also roughly in line with many other Porsche products, and they wouldn't even fulfil the same role within a garage for those in the position to have both. I've spoken a few times to a man who lives in my area who was hopeful of getting a 991R but missed out. He was also the first person in the UK to put a deposit down on the GT2 when it arrives but he concedes that this doesn't guarantee him getting one. He didn't boo hoo about the R and won't about the GT2 either even if it will disappoint him. It also hasn't stopped him buying a regular GT3 in the meantime to enjoy. So yes folks will buy other Porsche cars if they miss out especially when they are all within the same ballpark figure to begin with.

Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 24th September 10:56

[Leins]

Quickmoose said:

It'd be refreshing if Porsche might extend some good will by choosing people on a criteria that excluded serial flippers... that'd be a move in the right direction...

I think that is a salient point. I seem to recall in the 80s certain limited edition supercars were only offered to valued customers, and with the proviso that they not be sold on within a certain time period. Failure to adhere to this came with the threat of future sanctions from the manufacturer. I'm tempted to say the 959 was one such example. Whether it was ever enforced is a different matter, and the recession a number of years later put paid to the market for quite a while anyway

I am still quite enraged myself actually that they never offered me a road-going 917, but then I'm not sure if even Count Rossi's family got one of these Rs

[foxsasha]

gigglebug said:

It's not the same at all is it. You've used a completely irrational comparison to try and prove a point. The 918 had a list price starting around 625K and is a completely different ownership proposition as regards to both affordability and what it represents to any of Porsches other current-ish road cars so no, in that situation a potential customer probably wouldn't be looking at another car in the range. The 991R however only started at 135k so is on a completely different level to the 918 as regards to it's initial cost, it's also roughly in line with many other Porsche products, and they wouldn't even fulfil the same role within a garage for those in the position to have both. I've spoken a few times to a man who lives in my area who was hopeful of getting a 991R but missed out. He was also the first person in the UK to put a deposit down on the GT2 when it arrives but he concedes that this doesn't guarantee him getting one. He didn't boo hoo about the R and won't about the GT2 either even if it will disappoint him. It also hasn't stopped him buying a regular GT3 in the meantime to enjoy. So yes folks will buy other Porsche cars if they miss out especially when they are all within the same ballpark figure to begin with.

Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 24th September 10:56

Whilst I agree the comparison isn't valid the point that a GT3/RS/R customer is not the same customer who would buy an S or turbo stands.

[gigglebug]

foxsasha said:

Whilst I agree the comparison isn't valid the point that a GT3/RS/R customer is not the same customer who would buy an S or turbo stands.

I'm not sure that was the point the op was trying to make to be honest and if it was they did a very poor job of expressing it and isn't really relevant to their grievance. If your talking about a single purchase then yes I would expect for most it would boil down to whether or not the buyer was looking for an everyday road car or was buying a focused sports car, the two are not really comparable as they have completely different remits. I do however believe that a lot of folks who either couldn't afford, or where unable to secure, one of the Rennsport models would consider a model lower down the range such as a GTS just as someone not able to secure a GT3RS or R etc might consider a regular GT3 as the next best thing. I've given one example already and I've only ever met two Porsche fans who can actually afford to fund their obsessions.

[Slippydiff]

gigglebug said:

I'm not sure that was the point the op was trying to make to be honest and if it was they did a very poor job of expressing it and isn't really relevant to their grievance.If your talking about a single purchase then yes I would expect for most it would boil down to whether or not the buyer was looking for an everyday road car or was buying a focused sports car, the two are not really comparable as they have completely different remits. I do however believe that a lot of folks who either couldn't afford, or where unable to secure, one of the Rennsport models would consider a model lower down the range such as a GTS just as someone not able to secure a GT3RS or R etc might consider a regular GT3 as the next best thing. I've given one example already and I've only ever met two Porsche fans who can actually afford to fund their obsessions.

It appears you knew exactly what the point was that I was making, but regrettably it appears you chose to be obtuse. But for the sake of clarification :

If a punter can't get a 991 R, do you think he'd buy a 991 C4S instead ? No.
If the same punter can't get a 991 GT3 RS, would he a purchase a C2S with aero kit and the largest wheel option available ? No chance.
Punter can't get a 991 GT3, would he "settle" for a 991 Turbo, highly unlikely.
Punter can't get a GT4, does he spec a Cayman GTS to the hilt and make do ? Nope.

In short your assertion that someone who couldn't get an R/RS/GT4/3 allocation would happily "downgrade" to a GTS, is at best naive, and at worst hopelessly deluded..

You appear to have little insight into the mindset of the demographic that buy these cars (be they badge jockeys who want the latest "toy", investors who want the halo cars for their collection, flippers out to make a quick buck, or genuine enthusiasts who actually want to drive them). Unfortunately following supercars on the road, making videos of them and chatting to "a chap you know" doesn't automatically give you the insight into them you seem to think it does.

The 918 was no different, if you want a 918, you won't settle for anything less. End of.

As for my alleged "grievance", I don't have one. I left the Porsche fold earlier this year after 15 years of owning a plethora of some of their finest drivers cars. I have no regrets about walking away from the marque, and irrespective of what they turn out in the way of GT3's/RS's, R's etc in the future, I'll have little or no interest in them. Their ownership demographic has shifted massively in the last ten years, and what Porsche AG, it's cars and their customers stand for now, is very different from what it used to.

And finally there are many individuals both on here and PureGT that can and do fund their passion for the marque and it's Rennsport iterations. If you only know two, I'd suggest you stop basing your assumptions on such a small cross section, and you might want to consider networking on here more to gain a fuller insight.

Apologies if the above comes across as overly harsh, but if you choose to post in the manner you've seen fit to, and make groundless assumptions on the basis of a chat with "a man" and when by your own admission you only know two individuals capable of funding their passion, you can expect short shrift from those who've previously put their money where their mouth is.

[footsoldier]

Quickmoose said:

So was the original 1960's R also available to everyone? was it limited?
Have Porsche only just now started making limited editions from their standard models?

no.
924 Carrera GT anyone?

I did smile reading the 1980 924CGT review that was posted earlier this week.
"All sold out in advance"
Plus ca change...

[isaldiri]

PhilboSE said:

My previous comment was more aimed at how one would get into a 911R today, but the strategy to be offered the chance to buy one new is as you describe. However, I was in the Guildford dealership on the day that a lucky chappy was taking delivery of his GT3 RS. Talking to the salesman, he said that this one car was their entire allocation of the RS - so it must be quite the long game.

Someone is telling major porkies as I can assure you OPC Guildford got a lot more than one 991RS.....

[gigglebug]

Slippydiff said:

It appears you knew exactly what the point was that I was making, but regrettably it appears you chose to be obtuse. But for the sake of clarification :

If a punter can't get a 991 R, do you think he'd buy a 991 C4S instead ? No.
If the same punter can't get a 991 GT3 RS, would he a purchase a C2S with aero kit and the largest wheel option available ? No chance.
Punter can't get a 991 GT3, would he "settle" for a 991 Turbo, highly unlikely.
Punter can't get a GT4, does he spec a Cayman GTS to the hilt and make do ? Nope.

In short your assertion that someone who couldn't get an R/RS/GT4/3 allocation would happily "downgrade" to a GTS, is at best naive, and at worst hopelessly deluded..

You appear to have little insight into the mindset of the demographic that buy these cars (be they badge jockeys who want the latest "toy", investors who want the halo cars for their collection, flippers out to make a quick buck, or genuine enthusiasts who actually want to drive them). Unfortunately following supercars on the road, making videos of them and chatting to "a chap you know" doesn't automatically give you the insight into them you seem to think it does.

The 918 was no different, if you want a 918, you won't settle for anything less. End of.

As for my alleged "grievance", I don't have one. I left the Porsche fold earlier this year after 15 years of owning a plethora of some of their finest drivers cars. I have no regrets about walking away from the marque, and irrespective of what they turn out in the way of GT3's/RS's, R's etc in the future, I'll have little or no interest in them. Their ownership demographic has shifted massively in the last ten years, and what Porsche AG, it's cars and their customers stand for now, is very different from what it used to.

And finally there are many individuals both on here and PureGT that can and do fund their passion for the marque and it's Rennsport iterations. If you only know two, I'd suggest you stop basing your assumptions on such a small cross section, and you might want to consider networking on here more to gain a fuller insight.

Apologies if the above comes across as overly harsh, but if you choose to post in the manner you've seen fit to, and make groundless assumptions on the basis of a chat with "a man" and when by your own admission you only know two individuals capable of funding their passion, you can expect short shrift from those who've previously put their money where their mouth is.

Of course your right. Instead of basing my opinion on the experiences of the people I've met in real life I should base it on someone like you. I've stated that I've met two people who are seriously into Porsches, that's not to say that I haven't met, or know, plenty more who are into the many other brands of high performance and indeed supercars that are available and have the funds to indulge in their passions.

I've absolutely no idea why you would belittle their positions or mine for that matter and why you would think that anything you have said or know should automatically trump their experiences unless you consider yourself a higher form of supercar owner?

Your pointless examples have shown nothing. I've already given an example of someone who wasn't able to obtain a 911R settling for a regular GT3 which according to you possibly couldn't happen as no one settles for second best. The fact that you chose such an extreme example of downgrading, 635k 918 down to 145k Turbo S to try and prove a point shows your lack of understanding if nothing else.

I would suggest to you that if you are going to come on here and make blindingly irrelevant arguments that it is you that will be the one pulled up and questioned regardless of who you think you are, who you know or what you have owned.

The problem with someone self righteous like you is just because you've supposedly owned a few cars and know others in the same position you can't handle being questioned when you make an irrelevant statement by someone who you assumed hasn't.

Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 24th September 19:48

[footsoldier]

My "reading between the lines" opinion is that Porsche will produce as many .2GT3s as they can get orders for. There won't be a problem if you really want one, there will just be a problem if you want one of the first ones. The GT brand will become more mainstream, in order to generate cash.

The same thing has quietly happened to an extent with the current RS. They have made thousands more than any previous RS and are still being produced now. They will revert to list before long I'd guess.

Cars like the R will me made in relatively limited numbers to replace the GT as the top of the tree and add the exclusivity. (The next GT3 'might' have a manual box option, but it won't be an R equivalent). Still not really limited at 991 units, compared to past specials.

I don't agree with the allocation thing either - initially didn't get allocated an R, and childish or not, I would not have bought another Porsche. Didn't talk to them at all for 4 months, and to be fair to them, they had been working wth dealer behind the scenes and got me one.

However, the real reason a lot of people are so mad is because they are seen as free money at the moment. It's just a mad moment in the cycle. Not long ago it was hard to shift 997 4.0s. The 918 took years to sell out and now they command a 100% premium! Makes no sense. The reason Mac F1s are now worth £10m is because they could only sell a few at list of 630k! The P1 numbers were reduced from 500 to 375 to make sure they sold them all. Now they can build prototype/carbon bodied/GTR versions for multiples of original list price, and the 375 are worth double.

A perfect conflagration of free money for some, and low interest rates, looking for assets to pump up. Will burn out, IMO.

Anyway, business- wise, I'm told that most 918 owners go over the top with options on regular cars, which is where the real money is made. So, it's not just a case of who buys what, but who is daft/wealthy enough to spec Panameras, Turbo S, Caymans to the max. Along with a history of GTs, those are the people who they want to feel "special". (Clearly I'm a mug as well, having just spent £10k on a set of tyres and brake pads (not disks!) for a 918 this week. The price of not being a museum curator...)

Seems to me that they do risk p!ssing off future good customers, but I'm pretty sure Porsche has more data than I do to decide what' makes business, if seemingly not PR, sense.

Anyway, back to the R - I'm told it really is a classic 911, more than the sum of its parts. Can't wait to get mine. There's a special heated bubble waiting for it.




Or not...

[Mintbird]

Slippydiff said:

It appears you knew exactly what the point was that I was making, but regrettably it appears you chose to be obtuse. But for the sake of clarification :

If a punter can't get a 991 R, do you think he'd buy a 991 C4S instead ? No.
If the same punter can't get a 991 GT3 RS, would he a purchase a C2S with aero kit and the largest wheel option available ? No chance.
Punter can't get a 991 GT3, would he "settle" for a 991 Turbo, highly unlikely.
Punter can't get a GT4, does he spec a Cayman GTS to the hilt and make do ? Nope.

In short your assertion that someone who couldn't get an R/RS/GT4/3 allocation would happily "downgrade" to a GTS, is at best naive, and at worst hopelessly deluded..

You appear to have little insight into the mindset of the demographic that buy these cars (be they badge jockeys who want the latest "toy", investors who want the halo cars for their collection, flippers out to make a quick buck, or genuine enthusiasts who actually want to drive them). Unfortunately following supercars on the road, making videos of them and chatting to "a chap you know" doesn't automatically give you the insight into them you seem to think it does.

The 918 was no different, if you want a 918, you won't settle for anything less. End of.

As for my alleged "grievance", I don't have one. I left the Porsche fold earlier this year after 15 years of owning a plethora of some of their finest drivers cars. I have no regrets about walking away from the marque, and irrespective of what they turn out in the way of GT3's/RS's, R's etc in the future, I'll have little or no interest in them. Their ownership demographic has shifted massively in the last ten years, and what Porsche AG, it's cars and their customers stand for now, is very different from what it used to.

And finally there are many individuals both on here and PureGT that can and do fund their passion for the marque and it's Rennsport iterations. If you only know two, I'd suggest you stop basing your assumptions on such a small cross section, and you might want to consider networking on here more to gain a fuller insight.

Apologies if the above comes across as overly harsh, but if you choose to post in the manner you've seen fit to, and make groundless assumptions on the basis of a chat with "a man" and when by your own admission you only know two individuals capable of funding their passion, you can expect short shrift from those who've previously put their money where their mouth is.

Porsche doesnt care what their customers will or wont settle for. Its a Halo model, deemed available for those Porsche find worthy. Do you think they ask for Trackday credentials? If you spend alot of money with the brand, it increases the chance of getting an allocation. And no, buying second hand GT3s for 15 years wont mean squat - you never ordered a new car.

I find it totally understandable that Porsche wants their best Cayenne Turbo S, Panamera Turbo S clients who spend loads on their cooking models to feel like they are getting something back.

[Ex Boy Racer]

Slippydiff said:

CS Garth said:

I would be annoyed too but I would sleep well knowing I had owned many iterations of a great car and would try not act like a spolit brat. Shirley the alternative is that Porsche have to build a car for everyone who wants one and that looks a bit unlikely. There will always be disappointed customers out there with a limited run

I think spoilt brat is a tad harsh. I've never purchased a new Porsche, but I've owned 4 964 RS's, a 993 RS, 4 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3RS, 2 996 GT2's and 2 997 GT3's, and having done so I feel no sense of entitlement whatsoever, I don't consider myself a spoilt brat, merely an enthusiast that loves driving his cars.
But had I bought the majority (or indeed all of those cars) new, I suspect I probably would feel my local OPC (with whom I'd hopefully have nurtured a very good relationship with) at least owed me the courtesy of a chance to purchase the newest toy Porsche were offering to the market.
If that courtesy hadn't been extended, and I then saw the 2-3 cars that had been allocated to the dealer subsequently appeared on the market (at the same dealer) for a massive premium, I'd be both irritated and somewhat frustrated.

But I wouldn't be irritated by the fact that someone had made a fast buck, rather I'd be pissed off that as as enthusiast I've missed out the the chance to own/drive what purports to be a special car.

As for the assertion that having missed out on an R I'd go out and buy a lesser model in the range, no chance. That's akin to suggesting that a potential 918 owner (having just established he won't be getting an allocation) would promptly nip down to his local OPC and order a highly specced 991 Turbo S.
Not going to happen.

With that ownership history I bet you've made a few quid off the limited edition 911 yourself...

[Mintbird]

haha touche. alot of people with sand in their vaggines here because they cant have the latest appreciating porsche

Guess what ,if you could it wouldnt be so marked up