RE: Zenos sells 100th car
Discussion
Ozzie Osmond said:
ads_green said:
The e11 will be the mainstream car and will go toe to toe with the traditional manufacturers.
Well, either that or just a version of e10 with more bodywork etc. They'll need to do a lot better than the horrible side windows and weather gear dreamt up by KTM.
Proper doors, proper windows. I've non doubt there may be additional roof options for the e10 but the e11 will be much more akin to an Elise than a 211
This isn't a half baked tack on job.
Ozzie Osmond said:
If Lotus ever get around to replacing the centuries-old Elise it should give all of the smaller specialist cars a severe kicking.
Perhaps - but I can't see Lotus ever selling an elise under 35k now. What lotus really need is something in the vein of a S1 Elan / Mx5 that gives people the comforts they want in something that drives great. Then the Elise can go back to being the more focused option. Whilst the elise is trying to be everything to everyone it's going to struggle when Porsche do that so well.Ozzie Osmond said:
At the end of the day when Porsche will sell you a 300 bhp mid-engined sportscar for £40k it's not easy for any of these people.
Absolutely (although I doubt anybody buys a porsche for the list price with no options!).I like the way Zenos have quite a spread in power options - If you take the middle of the road S with 280 thats more than enough for some serious pace and if they can keep the e11 under the 40k mark then it's the one marque that could make it.
But instead of the raw numbers look at growth - just uk sales are up 60% from last year. One thing with Zenos is that at least they have through about long term survival. Many of the others are completely focussed on low volume sales of a single base model. That is very risky.
Compare with caterham - last year 68 new registrations.
Edited by ads_green on Monday 26th September 13:33
ads_green said:
Compare with caterham - last year 68 new registrations.
Good grief, that sounds alarming. But I guess they may sell quite a few unregistered cars that are used track only and/or sold overseas. Usually somebody pops up in these threads to say "how well Caterham are doing".Fundamentally I think the market for "trackday specials" will always be very small and there's a risk these various specialist manufacturers will have to compete fiercely for a small handful of sales.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Good grief, that sounds alarming. But I guess they may sell quite a few unregistered cars that are used track only and/or sold overseas. Usually somebody pops up in these threads to say "how well Caterham are doing".
Fundamentally I think the market for "trackday specials" will always be very small and there's a risk these various specialist manufacturers will have to compete fiercely for a small handful of sales.
It's only from "how many left" so only UK road registered cars - I know Zenos export a significant chunk (especially red and to China!)Fundamentally I think the market for "trackday specials" will always be very small and there's a risk these various specialist manufacturers will have to compete fiercely for a small handful of sales.
The E11 won't be a trackday special - it should be more than usable for everyday people
MikeGalos said:
800K for producing 100 cars is 8K/car. If they can cover materials and 3rd party inventory and salaries at 8K per car (and assuming they can cover the costs of manufacturing equipment depreciation and facility rental cost and insurance and utilities and all the other day to day expenses by new revenue) they're doing pretty well. Pretty hard to see how that happens, though.
Where are you getting £800k for 100 cars from?Europa1 said:
Where are you getting £800k for 100 cars from?
I wasn't sure. Last accounts they had £800k cash but have sold 100 cars at what? £30k so about £3m in revenues. I doubt running costs are close to that gross revenue figure? But it's more a case of what the net margins are per car and how that figure contrasts to running costs. I assume they will also carry forward product development costs to keep any tax down?
First set of accounts as a fully fledged car company with a product and with sales are due in a month and those will give the truest insight (short of monthly rate of sales, ie growing each month etc) but personally to have shifted 100 units by now is impressive and shows that they have their marketing heads screwed on which is often a catastrophic failing of new, niche car companies.
I met a couple of new Zenos customers at Snetterton yesterday. A couple who had just collected their E10S, and a gentleman who was expecting his E10R shortly. Owners seem to be extremely happy with the car, and anyone that tries it as a driver or passenger seems to come away with a positive view.
ads_green said:
The E11 won't be a trackday special - it should be more than usable for everyday people
That's what Caterham thought when they launched the "21" - and then sold fewer than 50 cars before killing it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_21
Ozzie Osmond said:
That's what Caterham thought when they launched the "21" - and then sold fewer than 50 cars before killing it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_21
Wrong car at the wrong time.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_21
We needed the Elise to show and prove stripped out cars can be fun run on the road.
Also cars are much further from pure driving machines now with all the electronics.
Also I think the e11 will look like a mini supercar than a shed built kit car.
The other main issue of the 21 was that only the drummer from Def Leopard could shut the driver's door, you had to be King Charles I to drive with the roof on and Douglas Bader to sit in the thing in the first instance.
I remember driving with my father, through London in the early morning, stopping for breakfast, talking incessantly about the car I was adamant I was going to be buying only to arrive and discover it was all a wind up and that it wasn't a car at all but some kind of child's toy that an adult could fit into.
Cruising in one's 21.
Mind you, the Elise was still a bit of a fiasco. As I recal trying to drive one of those in the early 90s and have a memory that you couldn't use the higher gears as there wasn't room to move the stick as it was already jammed up against your knee.
Have fond memories of watching a 50 year old chap crawling in filth, to get out of his Elise in the car park of an eminently respectable restaurant.
I guess that if you survive a childhood of malnourishment and rickets and don't go down the more traditional path of buying a sports bike, smoking rollies and marrying a big fat unit who looks and smells like a wheelie bin then a Caterham 21 could have been an option.
Such a shame as it was a lovely looking car but they never designed it to fit grown ups.
I remember driving with my father, through London in the early morning, stopping for breakfast, talking incessantly about the car I was adamant I was going to be buying only to arrive and discover it was all a wind up and that it wasn't a car at all but some kind of child's toy that an adult could fit into.
Cruising in one's 21.
Mind you, the Elise was still a bit of a fiasco. As I recal trying to drive one of those in the early 90s and have a memory that you couldn't use the higher gears as there wasn't room to move the stick as it was already jammed up against your knee.
Have fond memories of watching a 50 year old chap crawling in filth, to get out of his Elise in the car park of an eminently respectable restaurant.
I guess that if you survive a childhood of malnourishment and rickets and don't go down the more traditional path of buying a sports bike, smoking rollies and marrying a big fat unit who looks and smells like a wheelie bin then a Caterham 21 could have been an option.
Such a shame as it was a lovely looking car but they never designed it to fit grown ups.
Good to see Zenos hitting 100 cars. I confess to being a pretty satisfied multiple Zenos customer. I wanted a back-to-basics-no-electronic-nannying type of car for sunny sundays and track days and I didn't fit in Caterham or Ariel offerings. The Zenos is unique in being designed to cater for tall people (I'm 6'5"). I bought an E10S in July 2015, the third ever off the production line, drove about 4,000 miles in a year (quite a few track-days, as well as road miles). No major issues and factory service was excellent for the minor issues I did have. I have just taken delivery of a new E10R (a few days after the 100th was announced, so I'm guessing it's the 101st or 102nd). I did 480 miles on Sunday in the E10R trying to complete the specified 600 mile running in distance. Got out after 12 hours driving a bit sore but no worse than many "normal" cars after such a marathon drive and I was smiling all the way! The car is currently back at the factory for a factory check before a track day at Bedford on Saturday.
Worth noting also that this week's AutoCar has a top-5 list of track cars (Elemental >£75k, BAC Mono >£79k, Radical RXC500 >£143k, KTM X-Bow >£143k and Vuhl 05 >£60k). You can argue that these machines are targeting a more specialist market but the E10R looks like tremendous value relative to these machines with its 350 BHP and costing only between £40k and £50k. You get a lot of performance for your £ with Zenos.
Final comment on this topic: The Zenos team seem committed and very professional to me. They have experienced people (ex Lotus and ex Caterham) pursuing a well-thought-out business model. They have focused on getting distribution for their product in many markets across the world and have made effective, pragmatic choices in selection of components and planning of phased product release (the E10, E11 and E12 plan mentioned by others). They absolutely deserve kudos for doing what they are doing and the product is very good.
Anyone going to the Javelin day at Bedford on Saturday - come and have a passenger ride!
Worth noting also that this week's AutoCar has a top-5 list of track cars (Elemental >£75k, BAC Mono >£79k, Radical RXC500 >£143k, KTM X-Bow >£143k and Vuhl 05 >£60k). You can argue that these machines are targeting a more specialist market but the E10R looks like tremendous value relative to these machines with its 350 BHP and costing only between £40k and £50k. You get a lot of performance for your £ with Zenos.
Final comment on this topic: The Zenos team seem committed and very professional to me. They have experienced people (ex Lotus and ex Caterham) pursuing a well-thought-out business model. They have focused on getting distribution for their product in many markets across the world and have made effective, pragmatic choices in selection of components and planning of phased product release (the E10, E11 and E12 plan mentioned by others). They absolutely deserve kudos for doing what they are doing and the product is very good.
Anyone going to the Javelin day at Bedford on Saturday - come and have a passenger ride!
This thread is potentially damaging to my wallet...
All this talk of 100+ cars in 18 months and potentially a better track proposition than using my McLaren which is a) my daily driver, b) VERY expensive to fix, and c) 'needs' pre & post track day inspections by McLaren otherwise warranty is void - that alone adds £500-600 to the cost of track day and consumables add even more £'s!
So man maths says buy a track toy and I'll be saving money.
Result?.....I took a (used) Zenos out for a test drive today and was very impressed.
...except with the brakes which you had to really stomp on and had no feel. Initially I thought the discs might need a de-glaze and with better pads the problem could be sorted, but reading various test reports everyone criticises the brakes.
I'm very surprised Zenos haven't responded to this criticism, surely a decent disc/caliper/pad combination would be easy to source? - Anyone any recommendations of a good company to talk to?
My other concern was the screen, yes it stopped wind hitting you square in the face, but the wind wrapped round the screen and went across your face getting grit/dust in my eyes constantly. It struck me that you might as well just bin the screen and fit the aeroscreen and wear a helmet.
Having never driven an aeroscreen car before, what's the PH collective view on going down this route?
All this talk of 100+ cars in 18 months and potentially a better track proposition than using my McLaren which is a) my daily driver, b) VERY expensive to fix, and c) 'needs' pre & post track day inspections by McLaren otherwise warranty is void - that alone adds £500-600 to the cost of track day and consumables add even more £'s!
So man maths says buy a track toy and I'll be saving money.
Result?.....I took a (used) Zenos out for a test drive today and was very impressed.
...except with the brakes which you had to really stomp on and had no feel. Initially I thought the discs might need a de-glaze and with better pads the problem could be sorted, but reading various test reports everyone criticises the brakes.
I'm very surprised Zenos haven't responded to this criticism, surely a decent disc/caliper/pad combination would be easy to source? - Anyone any recommendations of a good company to talk to?
My other concern was the screen, yes it stopped wind hitting you square in the face, but the wind wrapped round the screen and went across your face getting grit/dust in my eyes constantly. It struck me that you might as well just bin the screen and fit the aeroscreen and wear a helmet.
Having never driven an aeroscreen car before, what's the PH collective view on going down this route?
100 IAN said:
This thread is potentially damaging to my wallet...
All this talk of 100+ cars in 18 months and potentially a better track proposition than using my McLaren which is a) my daily driver, b) VERY expensive to fix, and c) 'needs' pre & post track day inspections by McLaren otherwise warranty is void - that alone adds £500-600 to the cost of track day and consumables add even more £'s!
So man maths says buy a track toy and I'll be saving money.
Result?.....I took a (used) Zenos out for a test drive today and was very impressed.
...except with the brakes which you had to really stomp on and had no feel. Initially I thought the discs might need a de-glaze and with better pads the problem could be sorted, but reading various test reports everyone criticises the brakes.
I'm very surprised Zenos haven't responded to this criticism, surely a decent disc/caliper/pad combination would be easy to source? - Anyone any recommendations of a good company to talk to?
My other concern was the screen, yes it stopped wind hitting you square in the face, but the wind wrapped round the screen and went across your face getting grit/dust in my eyes constantly. It struck me that you might as well just bin the screen and fit the aeroscreen and wear a helmet.
Having never driven an aeroscreen car before, what's the PH collective view on going down this route?
The brake issue is easily resolved by getting the upgrade option (different pads, disk, caliber and master cylinder). On road and on track they work exactly as you would want. Lots of feel, lots of stopping power. All this talk of 100+ cars in 18 months and potentially a better track proposition than using my McLaren which is a) my daily driver, b) VERY expensive to fix, and c) 'needs' pre & post track day inspections by McLaren otherwise warranty is void - that alone adds £500-600 to the cost of track day and consumables add even more £'s!
So man maths says buy a track toy and I'll be saving money.
Result?.....I took a (used) Zenos out for a test drive today and was very impressed.
...except with the brakes which you had to really stomp on and had no feel. Initially I thought the discs might need a de-glaze and with better pads the problem could be sorted, but reading various test reports everyone criticises the brakes.
I'm very surprised Zenos haven't responded to this criticism, surely a decent disc/caliper/pad combination would be easy to source? - Anyone any recommendations of a good company to talk to?
My other concern was the screen, yes it stopped wind hitting you square in the face, but the wind wrapped round the screen and went across your face getting grit/dust in my eyes constantly. It struck me that you might as well just bin the screen and fit the aeroscreen and wear a helmet.
Having never driven an aeroscreen car before, what's the PH collective view on going down this route?
Ask Zenos for a test drive in a car that has these fitted. I had this done after having the car for a year, and I would suggest this is the only 'must have' option.
I'm one of the minority that does not have a windscreen. I forget the exact weight penalty, but I think I was told it's over 30kg. The weight sits fairly high up, so it has to have an effect on centre of gravity.
In reality you do need to wear a helmet. I did once drive from Northampton to Kent without a helmet, but it's not a good idea. (It was the hottest day of 2016 and my head was being cooked inside a black lid.)
Buffeting is not an issue once you get used to it, especially if you've ridden motorbikes.
Regarding the comment that the Exige V6 is the nearest rival to the R10 R, I disagree. The power is similar, but the Zenos is a few hundred kg lighter. In a lightweight car the % difference is huge. I'm not sure there is a direct rival amongst the 'established players'. Caterhams are front engined. Atoms are far less practical (if that's possible), with a reputation for punishing the unwary. I think I would look at a KTM or Vuhl as being closest. But all of these cost more for similar performance.
ash73 said:
SpudLink said:
Atoms ... reputation for punishing the unwary.
Do they still have that reputation with the latest iterations of the car?http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/car-culture/...
John McGuinness said:
It’s so raw. That gave me a fright, that. I thought I was going over the grass. Joe Bloggs with no experience is going to be through a hedge in this.
McGuinness might not be known for his mastery of 4 wheels, but I'm pretty sure he'll do a better job of taking an Atom than I could manage. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff