Alfa Guilia lease costs. You're aavin' a larf, mate.

[robemcdonald]

daemon said:

robemcdonald said:

How much money do the "premium brands" make out of the cheap leases they offer?

Maybe Alfa decided losing money on lots of lease cars wasn't the way to go.

Turnover is vanity. Profit is sanity.

BMW had 2.5 billion euros PROFIT in the first quarter of 2016....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-03/...

Edited by daemon on Saturday 24th September 18:20

But BMW have a diverse portfolio of products. Perhaps they can afford to offer cheaper leases on more common models on the back of more premium cars. This could be for a number of reasons.

Basically this thread is people moaning because they think something is comparatively too expensive. If you can't afford an Alfa get a BMW. Pretty simple really. Alfas success or failure is not going to rest on a relitivley small amount of leases.

[kambites]

Saly residuals and hence total cost of ownership for new buyers comes down to consumer confidence and whilst there may be little difference in actual engineering integrity, Alfa and BMW sit at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to perceived build quality and reliability. The only way Alfa can hope to compete in the UK is to subsidise residuals for long enough to build enough market share for their genuine engineering quality (assuming theyh have such a thing) to show, which will take decades.

[Evanivitch]

Blakewater said:

If they're leased out for peanuts and on the driveway of every Barratt house plenty of people around here will look down their noses at them for being common and not premium products.

Yeah... like Audi and BMW have really devalued the brand.

[kambites]

Evanivitch said:

Blakewater said:

If they're leased out for peanuts and on the driveway of every Barratt house plenty of people around here will look down their noses at them for being common and not premium products.

Yeah... like Audi and BMW have really devalued the brand.

The 3-series out-sells the Mondeo in the UK these days for people still view it as a "premium" car. If Alfa are aiming to place the Guilia into a class above the 3-seires/A4/C-class then fair enough, but I'm not convinced there's a market there or that the car will be good enough even if there is.

The Alfa either needs to be cheaper than the 3-series or better than the 3-series. From what I've seen the press have been congratulating Alfa for producing a car which is almost as good as the 3-series but if it turns out that it'll be 50% more expensive to own that really isn't helpful.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 24th September 19:39

[SWoll]

They'll sell and lease in the usual smallish numbers to people who want something different and are willing to pay a premium for it. As long as that is Alfa's plan then all good.

The issue for me is it's an even harder segment to shift cars in now than it was in the time of the 156. Mercedes and to an extent Jaguar have thrown off the 'old mans car' image in the last 10 years so potential buyers and fleet drivers have more choice than ever, as they also have with finance methods.

Contract hire is now incredibly popular as people like the ease of having a new car every 2-3 years, fully maintained, for a fixed cost. There are a few people on here who deride that but it's impossible to argue that it isn't now the most popular method of new car financing. if Alfa don't do something to make themselves competitive in this area then they will continue to be a niche product living off former glories and Clarkson anecdotes about 'proper petrolheads'.

TBH most Alfa owners don't want the brand to be successful in my view as doing so would reduce the appeal. They like to feel somehow superior to be people who buy German, even if they have to pay more overall for an inferior product in order to do so.

[Fast Bug]

robemcdonald said:

Basically this thread is people moaning because they think something is comparatively too expensive. If you can't afford an Alfa get a BMW. Pretty simple really. Alfas success or failure is not going to rest on a relitivley small amount of leases.

You couldn't be wider from the mark. The majority of cars in this sector are business sales in one way or another (either to a proper end user company or a leasing company).

Alfa's problem is 2 fold. They need to be at least in the same ball park as the rest of the cars in this sector. If they're not, then they'll price themselves off company car lists and won't be considered by fleet managers. With their pricing they'll fall out of the most popular bandings and end up in bandings against 5 Series/A6/E Class which usually have far less users and will be offering a smaller car for the same (if not more) monthly cost.

The second problem is their dealer network, which can best described as poor at best. I've dealt with the first hand and they're shocking. If a fleet car is off the road, it needs to be fixed quickly and the driver needs to be kept mobile. If they don't, it ends up causing grief for a fleet manger and they'll end up taking them off company car listings. If it's a lease customer who's been used to BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Jaguar and they have a bad experience, then they'll be turned off from the brand. Especially if they've paid a premium to have an Alfa over any number of other manufacturers.

I really hope they do well with it, it's a great looking product which deserves a chance. However with Sergio Marchionne's plans for global sales, I really don't think they're set up for it in these key areas. And that comes from someone that has had a 164, 3 159's and a GT Coupe

[daemon]

robemcdonald said:

Basically this thread is people moaning because they think something is comparatively too expensive.

No, its people being disappointed that the new Alfa isnt competitively priced.

robemcdonald said:

If you can't afford an Alfa get a BMW.

Its not about "affording". Its about relative value. Whos going to pay more for (arguably) less?

robemcdonald said:

Pretty simple really. Alfas success or failure is not going to rest on a relitivley small amount of leases.

As has been said already, wildly wide of the the mark. If FIAT group want to sell half a million Alfas a year, then they need to capture a significant chunk of the HUGE lease / PCP market. These prices are not going to do that.

[daemon]

kambites said:

Saly residuals and hence total cost of ownership for new buyers comes down to consumer confidence and whilst there may be little difference in actual engineering integrity, Alfa and BMW sit at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to perceived build quality and reliability. The only way Alfa can hope to compete in the UK is to subsidise residuals for long enough to build enough market share for their genuine engineering quality (assuming theyh have such a thing) to show, which will take decades.

Totally bang on the money.

If the manufacturer themselves dont have the confidence in their product to underwrite the residual values, then why should we as prospective customers?

[SWoll]

Fast Bug said:

You couldn't be wider from the mark. The majority of cars in this sector are business sales in one way or another (either to a proper end user company or a leasing company).

Alfa's problem is 2 fold. They need to be at least in the same ball park as the rest of the cars in this sector. If they're not, then they'll price themselves off company car lists and won't be considered by fleet managers. With their pricing they'll fall out of the most popular bandings and end up in bandings against 5 Series/A6/E Class which usually have far less users and will be offering a smaller car for the same (if not more) monthly cost.

The second problem is their dealer network, which can best described as poor at best. I've dealt with the first hand and they're shocking. If a fleet car is off the road, it needs to be fixed quickly and the driver needs to be kept mobile. If they don't, it ends up causing grief for a fleet manger and they'll end up taking them off company car listings. If it's a lease customer who's been used to BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Jaguar and they have a bad experience, then they'll be turned off from the brand. Especially if they've paid a premium to have an Alfa over any number of other manufacturers.

I really hope they do well with it, it's a great looking product which deserves a chance. However with Sergio Marchionne's plans for global sales, I really don't think they're set up for it in these key areas. And that comes from someone that has had a 164, 3 159's and a GT Coupe

This 100%

To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.

[daemon]

kambites said:

The Alfa either needs to be cheaper than the 3-series or better than the 3-series. From what I've seen the press have been congratulating Alfa for producing a car which is almost as good as the 3-series but if it turns out that it'll be 50% more expensive to own that really isn't helpful.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 24th September 19:39

Again, totally bang on the money. Thats exactly the problem. Totally hits the nail on the head.

[daemon]

SWoll said:

Fast Bug said:

You couldn't be wider from the mark. The majority of cars in this sector are business sales in one way or another (either to a proper end user company or a leasing company).

Alfa's problem is 2 fold. They need to be at least in the same ball park as the rest of the cars in this sector. If they're not, then they'll price themselves off company car lists and won't be considered by fleet managers. With their pricing they'll fall out of the most popular bandings and end up in bandings against 5 Series/A6/E Class which usually have far less users and will be offering a smaller car for the same (if not more) monthly cost.

The second problem is their dealer network, which can best described as poor at best. I've dealt with the first hand and they're shocking. If a fleet car is off the road, it needs to be fixed quickly and the driver needs to be kept mobile. If they don't, it ends up causing grief for a fleet manger and they'll end up taking them off company car listings. If it's a lease customer who's been used to BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Jaguar and they have a bad experience, then they'll be turned off from the brand. Especially if they've paid a premium to have an Alfa over any number of other manufacturers.

I really hope they do well with it, it's a great looking product which deserves a chance. However with Sergio Marchionne's plans for global sales, I really don't think they're set up for it in these key areas. And that comes from someone that has had a 164, 3 159's and a GT Coupe

This 100%

To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.

+1 to all of that.

[robemcdonald]

Guess what? Company fleet managers haven't allowed alfas for ages due to poor reliability. Even if the lease rates were low this probably wouldn't have changed.

[davebem]

SWoll said:

TBH most Alfa owners don't want the brand to be successful in my view as doing so would reduce the appeal. They like to feel somehow superior to be people who buy German, even if they have to pay more overall for an inferior product in order to do so.

Im not sure I agree with this, nearly every thread on the Giulia and in other forums Ive seen Alfa owners claim they want them to do well and be succesful. Alfa owners dont feel superior, thats the whole point, they make you feel better in a different way, they have realised that their Alfas will always have something the germans will never have, but are fully aware the germans will always have something else Alfas have never had?

[SWoll]

So they're already screwed before they even started then?

So that's the business and personal leasing crowd out of the equation. I hope their UK sales predictions aren't optimistic.

davebem said:

Im not sure I agree with this, nearly every thread on the Giulia and in other forums Ive seen Alfa owners claim they want them to do well and be succesful. Alfa owners dont feel superior, thats the whole point, they make you feel better in a different way, they have realised that their Alfas will always have something the germans will never have, but are fully aware the germans will always have something Alfas have never had?

Not my experience either on here or in the real world with the majority of Alfa owners TBH. They seem to take great joy in not buying the 'safe' or 'boring' german choice whilst denying there is any downside to Alfa ownership.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 24th September 21:45

[Selmer Mk6]

I wonder what the actual running cost would be for secondhand cars. I fear the German brands would cost a lot more by comparison. The emphasis here seems to be on lease costs and residuals. What about paying a bit more and being different. Even if road testers said the Alfa was far better (which they would never do) the sheep would still buy German.

[SWoll]

Selmer Mk6 said:

I wonder what the actual running cost would be for secondhand cars. I fear the German brands would cost a lot more by comparison. The emphasis here seems to be on lease costs and residuals. What about paying a bit more and being different. Even if road testers said the Alfa was far better (which they would never do) the sheep would still buy German.

Thanks for proving my point so quickly.

[robemcdonald]

SWoll said:

This 100%

To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.

To suggest the UK market is in any way pivotal to ALFAs success or failure is "beyond naive". This statement can be backed up by ALFAs failure to bring a full range to these shores.

ALFA can't compete with the German brands for many reasons (most previously mentioned here). So if they can't offer the same they have to be different or cheaper. They have chosen different by not offering cheap leases.

It probably won't end well, but then again it was never going to.

[SWoll]

robemcdonald said:

SWoll said:

This 100%

To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.

To suggest the UK market is in any way pivotal to ALFAs success or failure is "beyond naive". This statement can be backed up by ALFAs failure to bring a full range to these shores.

ALFA can't compete with the German brands for many reasons (most previously mentioned here). So if they can't offer the same they have to be different or cheaper. They have chosen different by not offering cheap leases.

It probably won't end well, but then again it was never going to.

I think you're giving them too much credit TBH. If they had any real confidence in their product and dealers they'd surely have tried to compete, even if only in the short term, in order get their cars out there on the roads and draw in more potential customers?

[daemon]

Selmer Mk6 said:

I wonder what the actual running cost would be for secondhand cars. I fear the German brands would cost a lot more by comparison. The emphasis here seems to be on lease costs and residuals. What about paying a bit more and being different. Even if road testers said the Alfa was far better (which they would never do) the sheep would still buy German.

BMW, Merc, etc tend to do servicing packs so you will know the running costs up front.

[daemon]

SWoll said:

robemcdonald said:

SWoll said:

This 100%

To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.

To suggest the UK market is in any way pivotal to ALFAs success or failure is "beyond naive". This statement can be backed up by ALFAs failure to bring a full range to these shores.

ALFA can't compete with the German brands for many reasons (most previously mentioned here). So if they can't offer the same they have to be different or cheaper. They have chosen different by not offering cheap leases.

It probably won't end well, but then again it was never going to.

I think you're giving them too much credit TBH. If they had any real confidence in their product and dealers they'd surely have tried to compete, even if only in the short term, in order get their cars out there on the roads and draw in more potential customers?

+1

As i said, if FIAT / Alfa dont have enough confidence in their product to underwrite residuals at a reasonable level, then how can consumers be expected to have confidence in the product?