Alfa Guilia lease costs. You're aavin' a larf, mate.
Discussion
robemcdonald said:
SWoll said:
This 100%
To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.
To suggest the UK market is in any way pivotal to ALFAs success or failure is "beyond naive". This statement can be backed up by ALFAs failure to bring a full range to these shores.To suggest that the number of cars in the small executive sector that are leased is 'small' is beyond naïve. To also suggest that Alfa can in any way justify a premium over a comparable BMW for anyone other than 'fanboys' is equally silly.
ALFA can't compete with the German brands for many reasons (most previously mentioned here). So if they can't offer the same they have to be different or cheaper. They have chosen different by not offering cheap leases.
It probably won't end well, but then again it was never going to.
The UK is a very strong market for new premium brand cars, and i would have thought it would be one that Alfa would want to make inroads into IF they want to hit their 500,000 cars per year target.
And we're not the only lease / PCP driven market....
daemon said:
I dont think he / we said "pivotal"?
The UK is a very strong market for new premium brand cars, and i would have thought it would be one that Alfa would want to make inroads into IF they want to hit their 500,000 cars per year target.
And we're not the only lease / PCP driven market....
Where did I suggest you did? I didn't use quotation marks there.The UK is a very strong market for new premium brand cars, and i would have thought it would be one that Alfa would want to make inroads into IF they want to hit their 500,000 cars per year target.
And we're not the only lease / PCP driven market....
We may not be the only Lease driven market, but is there any eveidence that the car isn't more competitively priced (lease wise) in those other markets?
Do we even know what ALFAs sales targets for the UK are? Probably no more than 5000 as a guess. There are more people with a golf r on lease on ph than that...... probably
I think people are getting a bit carried away here. The Germans have worked out a business model whereby they heavily discount new cars which are sold on finance which makes them a lot of money. They get the cars back after 2-3 years and stick them on the forecourt for not much less than the heavily discounted list/lease cost. Joe public, who doesn't frequent this type of forum, thinks he's getting a great second hand deal and buys the second hand car. The German's make more money. The bloke who bought the new car also needs a new one and because a badge is very important he sticks with the Germans who start the process all over again.
Alfa can't do this. Why? Because they built some junk in the 80s when the Germans began convincing people theirs was a superior product. In order to reverse this Alfa are going to have to spend a lot of time and money convincing people they are now building good cars. It's a similar problem Mercedes tackled when they lost their good reputation after building junk in the 90s. Alfa can't compete on price because they don't sell the same volume. So they have to build a very good car (the Guilla) first and begin the slow transformation process.
IMHO the Guilla will be a brilliant second hand buy. It's better looking, more interesting, better value, rarer and cooler than anything the Germans make and will probably be a great car to own for anyone who isn't conducting an in depth road test or trying to points score on a car forum. I for one would take a Guilla over anything made in Germany, but not at the current list price.
Alfa can't do this. Why? Because they built some junk in the 80s when the Germans began convincing people theirs was a superior product. In order to reverse this Alfa are going to have to spend a lot of time and money convincing people they are now building good cars. It's a similar problem Mercedes tackled when they lost their good reputation after building junk in the 90s. Alfa can't compete on price because they don't sell the same volume. So they have to build a very good car (the Guilla) first and begin the slow transformation process.
IMHO the Guilla will be a brilliant second hand buy. It's better looking, more interesting, better value, rarer and cooler than anything the Germans make and will probably be a great car to own for anyone who isn't conducting an in depth road test or trying to points score on a car forum. I for one would take a Guilla over anything made in Germany, but not at the current list price.
jamies30 said:
Alfa Romeo isn't meant to be a budget brand, though. In the good old days, you paid a (justified) premium for them - I believe a Montreal was more expensive than an E-Type, in their day. Granted they've lost their way a little in recent years, so things like the MiTo had to take a more down-market "never mind the quality, feel the width" approach.
So maybe the folks who just want the most prestige for their leasing pound will stick with the same marques as they have for the last 20 years, and maybe Alfa Romeo finally has an alternative that is worth the extra cost, albeit to a smaller number of people. Might not be a bad thing.
LOL, they're trying to flog 4 pot diesel saloons....So maybe the folks who just want the most prestige for their leasing pound will stick with the same marques as they have for the last 20 years, and maybe Alfa Romeo finally has an alternative that is worth the extra cost, albeit to a smaller number of people. Might not be a bad thing.
daemon said:
+1
As i said, if FIAT / Alfa dont have enough confidence in their product to underwrite residuals at a reasonable level, then how can consumers be expected to have confidence in the product?
It is not just about the residuals though - it is about the selling price.As i said, if FIAT / Alfa dont have enough confidence in their product to underwrite residuals at a reasonable level, then how can consumers be expected to have confidence in the product?
BMW and Merc list prices are pure fantasy. The real price is usually £7-8k less than that. For many buyers/drivers this is stupid as they are paying tax on a made up price no one pays.
BMW would do far better to simply lop 20% off their list prices and offer 0% discount and the only loser would be HMRC.
If I was wanting/needing a 4 pot diesel, which lets face it, is not a PH type of car whoever makes it, I wouldn't get a BMW or Alfa (or any other 'premium' brand). Something like a skoda Octavia would do the same day to day job just as well but much cheaper. Why spend more?
Let's face it , with uk buyers obsessed with German brands, Alfa are never going to sell many cars over here. It wouldn't matter if it was better in all areas, and cheaper, uk buyers would still not buy over Germans in any great numbers.
Let's face it , with uk buyers obsessed with German brands, Alfa are never going to sell many cars over here. It wouldn't matter if it was better in all areas, and cheaper, uk buyers would still not buy over Germans in any great numbers.
robemcdonald said:
We may not be the only Lease driven market, but is there any eveidence that the car isn't more competitively priced (lease wise) in those other markets?
Do we even know what ALFAs sales targets for the UK are? Probably no more than 5000 as a guess. There are more people with a golf r on lease on ph than that...... probably
Sadly I think they may struggle to shift 500 units. Sales year to date (well end of Aug) for the whole brand is 3286 unitsDo we even know what ALFAs sales targets for the UK are? Probably no more than 5000 as a guess. There are more people with a golf r on lease on ph than that...... probably
www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/
It will be a slow process for them to convince the buying public they have a good car. Sadly I think they missed a trick by not replacing the 159 as it was a good car. They've been out of this sector for a while and may well have lost some of the core Alfa buyers to Volvo etc
confused_buyer said:
It is not just about the residuals though - it is about the selling price.
BMW and Merc list prices are pure fantasy. The real price is usually £7-8k less than that. For many buyers/drivers this is stupid as they are paying tax on a made up price no one pays.
BMW would do far better to simply lop 20% off their list prices and offer 0% discount and the only loser would be HMRC.
And then they'd lose business from the fleet and lease sector. Why should they pay the same price as Mrs Miggins who only buys one car a year? BMW and Merc list prices are pure fantasy. The real price is usually £7-8k less than that. For many buyers/drivers this is stupid as they are paying tax on a made up price no one pays.
BMW would do far better to simply lop 20% off their list prices and offer 0% discount and the only loser would be HMRC.
Some of the terms I've seen my customers get from BMW are huge, way larger than I can get them for MB, so it's not all about price in this market place. JLR are starting to make decent progress and they don't offer massive discounts, but they do stand behind the RV's on their product
Perhaps Alfa have planned on the UK receiving an allocation of cars matched to the capacity of its dealer network?
No point in aiming for Germanic volumes with only 10% of their service capacity. That would lead to terrible reputation damage.
If your limiting the numbers of unit you can sell, you might as well make them profitable and to customers prepared to pay a premium.
No point in aiming for Germanic volumes with only 10% of their service capacity. That would lead to terrible reputation damage.
If your limiting the numbers of unit you can sell, you might as well make them profitable and to customers prepared to pay a premium.
Fast Bug said:
robemcdonald said:
We may not be the only Lease driven market, but is there any eveidence that the car isn't more competitively priced (lease wise) in those other markets?
Do we even know what ALFAs sales targets for the UK are? Probably no more than 5000 as a guess. There are more people with a golf r on lease on ph than that...... probably
Sadly I think they may struggle to shift 500 units. Sales year to date (well end of Aug) for the whole brand is 3286 unitsDo we even know what ALFAs sales targets for the UK are? Probably no more than 5000 as a guess. There are more people with a golf r on lease on ph than that...... probably
www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/
It will be a slow process for them to convince the buying public they have a good car. Sadly I think they missed a trick by not replacing the 159 as it was a good car. They've been out of this sector for a while and may well have lost some of the core Alfa buyers to Volvo etc
confused_buyer said:
It is not just about the residuals though - it is about the selling price.
BMW and Merc list prices are pure fantasy. The real price is usually £7-8k less than that. For many buyers/drivers this is stupid as they are paying tax on a made up price no one pays.
BMW would do far better to simply lop 20% off their list prices and offer 0% discount and the only loser would be HMRC.
And then they'd lose business from the fleet and lease sector. Why should they pay the same price as Mrs Miggins who only buys one car a year? BMW and Merc list prices are pure fantasy. The real price is usually £7-8k less than that. For many buyers/drivers this is stupid as they are paying tax on a made up price no one pays.
BMW would do far better to simply lop 20% off their list prices and offer 0% discount and the only loser would be HMRC.
Some of the terms I've seen my customers get from BMW are huge, way larger than I can get them for MB, so it's not all about price in this market place. JLR are starting to make decent progress and they don't offer massive discounts, but they do stand behind the RV's on their product
Also the 159 wasn't a great car by contemporary standards and it still most certainly isn't now. It wasn't even much of a looker compared to the car it replaced. (It looks like someone made an insignia based kit car of the 156). Performance of even the sportier models wasn't close to its German rivals and it had the added benefit of suspension bushes that must have been designed to be changed at every service.
I really want the giulia to do well, but I don't think it will. Who's going to buy it? The only people interested it seems think the lease price is too high and will "pull the trigger" on a golf r instead.... until someone inevitably steals it.
In my opinion as lomg as Alfa stay part of the FIAT group they're doomed. A brighter future would involve collaboration or acquisition by BMW or MB (preferably the former). But that's for another thread.
My point with registrations year to date, is that with this model if they want to do 5000 units a year, then they're doubling their volume.
Fiat won't sell Alfa, they see Alfa as their 'upmarket' brand and they've effectively destroyed Lancia. I don't think BMW would make a good owner for them. It didn't really work out well for Rover did it? BMW got the 4X4 know how from Land Rover and took the Rover 400 replacement. But that's a whole other thread
O/T, but nice Sprint
Fiat won't sell Alfa, they see Alfa as their 'upmarket' brand and they've effectively destroyed Lancia. I don't think BMW would make a good owner for them. It didn't really work out well for Rover did it? BMW got the 4X4 know how from Land Rover and took the Rover 400 replacement. But that's a whole other thread
O/T, but nice Sprint
SWoll said:
So they're already screwed before they even started then?
So that's the business and personal leasing crowd out of the equation. I hope their UK sales predictions aren't optimistic.
There is certainly something interesting about an Alfa that you don't get with a German - they are different, rarer and arguably more special. Perhaps not as competent but they have their own appeal. So that's the business and personal leasing crowd out of the equation. I hope their UK sales predictions aren't optimistic.
davebem said:
Im not sure I agree with this, nearly every thread on the Giulia and in other forums Ive seen Alfa owners claim they want them to do well and be succesful. Alfa owners dont feel superior, thats the whole point, they make you feel better in a different way, they have realised that their Alfas will always have something the germans will never have, but are fully aware the germans will always have something Alfas have never had?
Not my experience either on here or in the real world with the majority of Alfa owners TBH. They seem to take great joy in not buying the 'safe' or 'boring' german choice whilst denying there is any downside to Alfa ownership. Edited by SWoll on Saturday 24th September 21:45
No idea what you drive but I have a couple of Germans in addition to an old Alfa and I still love our Alfa.
I wish more people drove Alfas so that they could
see the appeal to be honest.
The problem is Alfa, much like Lotus, can't afford to produce cars which only appeal to the brand fanatics; to hit the volumes they're aiming for they need to sell cars on objective merrit not just subjective appeal.
I've driven a number of Alfas, including most of their recent offerings and I still don't see the appeal. For me everything mainstream they've produced from the 159 onwards is just an average (at best) family car. Since the death of the 159 they can't even play the looks card anymore, at least for my eyes. I'd genuinely rather own the Kia equilivant than a Guiletta or a Mito - similarly dull to drive, considerably better built and, at least to my eye, better looking.
I think everyone wants Alfa to succeed but if they're going to succeed as a premium brand they need to produce premium products and price them competitively against the premium competition. They seem able to do one or the other but not both.
I've driven a number of Alfas, including most of their recent offerings and I still don't see the appeal. For me everything mainstream they've produced from the 159 onwards is just an average (at best) family car. Since the death of the 159 they can't even play the looks card anymore, at least for my eyes. I'd genuinely rather own the Kia equilivant than a Guiletta or a Mito - similarly dull to drive, considerably better built and, at least to my eye, better looking.
I think everyone wants Alfa to succeed but if they're going to succeed as a premium brand they need to produce premium products and price them competitively against the premium competition. They seem able to do one or the other but not both.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 25th September 09:54
SonicHedgeHog said:
I think people are getting a bit carried away here. The Germans have worked out a business model whereby they heavily discount new cars which are sold on finance which makes them a lot of money. They get the cars back after 2-3 years and stick them on the forecourt for not much less than the heavily discounted list/lease cost. Joe public, who doesn't frequent this type of forum, thinks he's getting a great second hand deal and buys the second hand car. The German's make more money. The bloke who bought the new car also needs a new one and because a badge is very important he sticks with the Germans who start the process all over again.
Alfa can't do this. Why? Because they built some junk in the 80s when the Germans began convincing people theirs was a superior product. In order to reverse this Alfa are going to have to spend a lot of time and money convincing people they are now building good cars. It's a similar problem Mercedes tackled when they lost their good reputation after building junk in the 90s. Alfa can't compete on price because they don't sell the same volume. So they have to build a very good car (the Guilla) first and begin the slow transformation process.
IMHO the Guilla will be a brilliant second hand buy. It's better looking, more interesting, better value, rarer and cooler than anything the Germans make and will probably be a great car to own for anyone who isn't conducting an in depth road test or trying to points score on a car forum. I for one would take a Guilla over anything made in Germany, but not at the current list price.
Agree 100%.Alfa can't do this. Why? Because they built some junk in the 80s when the Germans began convincing people theirs was a superior product. In order to reverse this Alfa are going to have to spend a lot of time and money convincing people they are now building good cars. It's a similar problem Mercedes tackled when they lost their good reputation after building junk in the 90s. Alfa can't compete on price because they don't sell the same volume. So they have to build a very good car (the Guilla) first and begin the slow transformation process.
IMHO the Guilla will be a brilliant second hand buy. It's better looking, more interesting, better value, rarer and cooler than anything the Germans make and will probably be a great car to own for anyone who isn't conducting an in depth road test or trying to points score on a car forum. I for one would take a Guilla over anything made in Germany, but not at the current list price.
To me Alfa and Saab were quite similar in the 70s and 80s.
Something less mainstream.
Saab probably better quality though but looked what happened to them.
Definitely would consider a used Guila in the future.
kambites said:
Saly residuals and hence total cost of ownership for new buyers comes down to consumer confidence and whilst there may be little difference in actual engineering integrity, Alfa and BMW sit at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to perceived build quality and reliability. The only way Alfa can hope to compete in the UK is to subsidise residuals for long enough to build enough market share for their genuine engineering quality (assuming theyh have such a thing) to show, which will take decades.
Very much this. I have to say I do find it odd that people are using the word special to describe what is a range of benign 4 pot rep cars, that offer nothing new to the sector apart from an amusing attempt to lease them for more almost twice the price Germans ask for similar cars.
The QF has made all the headlines and they won't need to discount that as that is a car you can sell on emotion and limited availability to the fans or people after something different from the usual M/RS/AMG fair and offers the same price point as the M3 but C63S power so you can see a market position, but the range then drops of a cliff right down to the bottom with nothing in between and your left with unremarkable rep spec cars for more than BMW charge to lease a 4/340i or 4/335d.
How does that even begin to work.
The QF has made all the headlines and they won't need to discount that as that is a car you can sell on emotion and limited availability to the fans or people after something different from the usual M/RS/AMG fair and offers the same price point as the M3 but C63S power so you can see a market position, but the range then drops of a cliff right down to the bottom with nothing in between and your left with unremarkable rep spec cars for more than BMW charge to lease a 4/340i or 4/335d.
How does that even begin to work.
golfer19 said:
Definitely would consider a used Guila in the future.
And that's the problem. Plenty of people here have said they'd consider a used one, but they need to get the pricing right for people to buy new ones in order for there to be used ones available. The people in that have said they want a new one have a stumbling block on the pricingWills2 said:
I have to say I do find it odd that people are using the word special to describe what is a range of benign 4 pot rep cars, that offer nothing new to the sector apart from an amusing attempt to lease them for more almost twice the price Germans ask for similar cars.
The QF has made all the headlines and they won't need to discount that as that is a car you can sell on emotion and limited availability to the fans or people after something different from the usual M/RS/AMG fair and offers the same price point as the M3 but C63S power so you can see a market position, but the range then drops of a cliff right down to the bottom with nothing in between and your left with unremarkable rep spec cars for more than BMW charge to lease a 4/340i or 4/335d.
How does that even begin to work.
"Special" maybe describing the fact that they won't be ten a penny! The QF has made all the headlines and they won't need to discount that as that is a car you can sell on emotion and limited availability to the fans or people after something different from the usual M/RS/AMG fair and offers the same price point as the M3 but C63S power so you can see a market position, but the range then drops of a cliff right down to the bottom with nothing in between and your left with unremarkable rep spec cars for more than BMW charge to lease a 4/340i or 4/335d.
How does that even begin to work.
I've owned a large number of Lancia and Alfa since the late eighties, I enjoy experiencing the difference that driving an Italian car brings. It's not perfect, but I like that. The adage that you have to have an Alfa though, if you're a real car nut, is pretty modern - I don't remember that in the 70s and 80s.
This is the runaround in the house (below), and I'm looking for something with legs and comfort to go with it. It's fine, but my God, it's tedious in that it lacks character. It's a triumph for the engineers in that you could be in an A3 and not get a totally disconnected experience from that of an A6. So, Audi and the other usual suspects leave me cold, and I was really looking forward to receiving word of these rates.
I'd pay a premium for the fact my car looks good, offers a high sense of ownership pleasure, is interesting and drives well, but pay excessively for the privilege? No way. Hence the thread. I'm a person who would quite happily lease a QV or a very well specced burner, but not at these prices. It's all about supply and demand I suppose.. if they aren't going to import that many, then their price point will be marked accordingly. Maybe the issue is one of import and distrubution, and not residuals and marketing. End result is the same though.
This is the runaround in the house (below), and I'm looking for something with legs and comfort to go with it. It's fine, but my God, it's tedious in that it lacks character. It's a triumph for the engineers in that you could be in an A3 and not get a totally disconnected experience from that of an A6. So, Audi and the other usual suspects leave me cold, and I was really looking forward to receiving word of these rates.
I'd pay a premium for the fact my car looks good, offers a high sense of ownership pleasure, is interesting and drives well, but pay excessively for the privilege? No way. Hence the thread. I'm a person who would quite happily lease a QV or a very well specced burner, but not at these prices. It's all about supply and demand I suppose.. if they aren't going to import that many, then their price point will be marked accordingly. Maybe the issue is one of import and distrubution, and not residuals and marketing. End result is the same though.
ITP said:
If I was wanting/needing a 4 pot diesel, which lets face it, is not a PH type of car whoever makes it, I wouldn't get a BMW or Alfa (or any other 'premium' brand). Something like a skoda Octavia would do the same day to day job just as well but much cheaper. Why spend more?
Because away from PH and in the real world people want a badge on the drive. A badge and a recent plate may make no difference to your driving enjoyment but it makes a difference to the way people behave towards you, right or wrong.You can choose to ignore this if you want, and FWIW I do, but I know that it changes the way people behave towards me.
I think the "crap residuals" is a bit over played - the 159 held its value pretty well for the first three years at least. Reliability is well overplayed - 156/147 and successors are no more or less reliable than anything else. I'm always under mine because I can't resist a neglected shed for a few hundred quid.
Their big problem is that they have no continuity. The 156 sold like hot cakes, and when you came to the end of the 3 year lease there was nothing to replace it with. 159 came along 6 years too late. Guilia is another 6 years too late. The germans have got this down to a fine art - you chop your three year old in, and there is the replacement, the same yet different.
The won't shift many of these if they are not competitive - these prices are lease companies chucking out estimates for cars they haven't got and haven't even seen. It will become more competitive when it settles down and the cars actually exist.
The QV is the first car in a long time I've considered getting new. Problem is I don't actually need a car at the moment, I'm hardly commuting at all, and my collection of older Alfas does just fine for family duties.
Their big problem is that they have no continuity. The 156 sold like hot cakes, and when you came to the end of the 3 year lease there was nothing to replace it with. 159 came along 6 years too late. Guilia is another 6 years too late. The germans have got this down to a fine art - you chop your three year old in, and there is the replacement, the same yet different.
The won't shift many of these if they are not competitive - these prices are lease companies chucking out estimates for cars they haven't got and haven't even seen. It will become more competitive when it settles down and the cars actually exist.
The QV is the first car in a long time I've considered getting new. Problem is I don't actually need a car at the moment, I'm hardly commuting at all, and my collection of older Alfas does just fine for family duties.
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