How to deal with 17 year old driving dangerously?
Discussion
Agree with DonkeyApple, he just sounds spoiled.
He's not going to learn this lesson whilst you're funding it all - unless he seriously hurts himself/someone else. Sorry to say that if you continue funding it after him showing the attitude that he doesn't care about the consequences, you'll be directly responsible for them.
Sell the car, cancel the insurance, buy him a push bike and tell him he can get a job if he wants to fund his own car. You won't have the same control at that point, but hopefully the whole process will see him growing up a little, and teaching him some respect.
He's not going to learn this lesson whilst you're funding it all - unless he seriously hurts himself/someone else. Sorry to say that if you continue funding it after him showing the attitude that he doesn't care about the consequences, you'll be directly responsible for them.
Sell the car, cancel the insurance, buy him a push bike and tell him he can get a job if he wants to fund his own car. You won't have the same control at that point, but hopefully the whole process will see him growing up a little, and teaching him some respect.
In fairness OP, that sounds all fairly 17 year-old boyish; nothing too out of the ordinary to worry about.
It may well be that,me hen his teenage boy sense of indignation has worn off, he'll see that you and your wife are right and come back with his tail somewhere approaching between his legs on this one. That's the point at which to be magnanimous and re-Inforce the messages - but you know this.
Also, is there a slightly removed role model that you can use here? I know it won't be your stepfather but is there a grandfather on the other side or an uncle that he'll listen to? My parents used my Grandmother to great effect as someone to reason with me when I wouldn't listen to them on things at that age and I have been called upon to be the bearable voice of sense to some of my nephews in their more wayward phases
It may well be that,me hen his teenage boy sense of indignation has worn off, he'll see that you and your wife are right and come back with his tail somewhere approaching between his legs on this one. That's the point at which to be magnanimous and re-Inforce the messages - but you know this.
Also, is there a slightly removed role model that you can use here? I know it won't be your stepfather but is there a grandfather on the other side or an uncle that he'll listen to? My parents used my Grandmother to great effect as someone to reason with me when I wouldn't listen to them on things at that age and I have been called upon to be the bearable voice of sense to some of my nephews in their more wayward phases
Am I the only one flabbergasted at the number of people who regard this type of behavior as normal for a 17 year old? Misjudging a country lane bend occasionally or putting foot to the floor for a couple of nervous miles when there is nobody about perhaps. But not the kind of antics described by the OP, not on a regular basis.
If he isn't willing to listen, nor change his ways then simply take the car off him.
Its your car, that you pay for, so stop.
He managed before he was 17 without a car, you cannot be walked all over with such a sense of entitlement.
Yes, I know all 17 year olds are like that changing point for me was may father throwing me into the stream in our Garden after I got smart once to often, suddenly a light comes on and you truly realise all the effort and support your parents have given you - this was once I started Uni / Working and you appreciate the difficulties of real life.
I think as DonkeyApple said, what is his plan? Is he in Uni / A-Levels, training?
Give him a real life focus and it may help him out!
Its your car, that you pay for, so stop.
He managed before he was 17 without a car, you cannot be walked all over with such a sense of entitlement.
Yes, I know all 17 year olds are like that changing point for me was may father throwing me into the stream in our Garden after I got smart once to often, suddenly a light comes on and you truly realise all the effort and support your parents have given you - this was once I started Uni / Working and you appreciate the difficulties of real life.
I think as DonkeyApple said, what is his plan? Is he in Uni / A-Levels, training?
Give him a real life focus and it may help him out!
Dr Jekyll said:
Am I the only one flabbergasted at the number of people who regard this type of behavior as normal for a 17 year old? Misjudging a country lane bend occasionally or putting foot to the floor for a couple of nervous miles when there is nobody about perhaps. But not the kind of antics described by the OP, not on a regular basis.
I find it annoying when people say; "We all did/do it!" No. No we don't. It's a tired add-on people bolt on to a statement to justify their own sh*tness.
zarjaz1991 said:
When I was 17 I was both working AND at college.
Pretty incredible! Near superhuman...I expect the OP is looking at you and hearing "let's see what you could have won" like a Bullseye contestants being confronted with the speedboat he failed to get his hands on.Seriously, do you think it's that helpful for you to continually pop up here saying his son needs a hiding, you did this, you did that etc, when you're only about 12 years old?? Comes across as very rude IMO.
OP - sympathies. I'd somewhat guessed that his response would be along those lines - I know mine would have been at the same age. I also grew up rurally so well understand the transport problem. We got no buses ever so it was a scooter at 16 and a car at 17 for me and I think that's pretty much 'standard' for the country. A lot of people suggesting tougher measures will be townies that don't get that it's just a case of him sucking it up and taking public transport until he sorts it out.
FWIW, I think black box insurance may be your only option here. I'd be very surprised if he just 'comes to see it your way' and he needs to get about the place so realistically, you need to find a way to enforce compliance. If he f
ks it up and they cancel on him, I guess he really is on his own and will need to think about a bike!Good luck!
DonkeyApple said:
It does read as if your son has been over indulged rather than him being a wrongun?
Rather than being a bad child it does sound like he hasn't matured yet because he hasn't yet had to work for things or do anything required of a young man?
His 'me me me' response seems an awful lot like a child not naturally becoming a man when many of his peers probably are. As a result, is he actually happy?
Traditionally, sticking very young 17 year olds into the military was a common solution
But is it worth approaching this from a completely different angle? For example, if he is immature, has been over indulged and isn't one of life's thickos then I'd wager that he is probably quite a scared 17 yr old. He probably doesn't know what he wants to do with his life or if he does then doesn't know how to start out on that path. I'd wager that acting the tt, being lazy and driving like a spaz have a lot to do with him not having a scooby do as to what he is going to do with his life?
I know you've taken the keys away but as you are rural don't you have a local plod who'll pop over and chat to him?That has always been a traditional starting point. But do you know what he wants to do for a living? Have you planned a path with him on how to get there?
Might be worth sorting that massive bit out with him and you'll then find the issue of him being an immature, indignant tool melts away once he has a focus?
I was going to suggest getting your local Policeman to have a word with him. Rather than being a bad child it does sound like he hasn't matured yet because he hasn't yet had to work for things or do anything required of a young man?
His 'me me me' response seems an awful lot like a child not naturally becoming a man when many of his peers probably are. As a result, is he actually happy?
Traditionally, sticking very young 17 year olds into the military was a common solution
But is it worth approaching this from a completely different angle? For example, if he is immature, has been over indulged and isn't one of life's thickos then I'd wager that he is probably quite a scared 17 yr old. He probably doesn't know what he wants to do with his life or if he does then doesn't know how to start out on that path. I'd wager that acting the t
t, being lazy and driving like a spaz have a lot to do with him not having a scooby do as to what he is going to do with his life?I know you've taken the keys away but as you are rural don't you have a local plod who'll pop over and chat to him?That has always been a traditional starting point. But do you know what he wants to do for a living? Have you planned a path with him on how to get there?
Might be worth sorting that massive bit out with him and you'll then find the issue of him being an immature, indignant tool melts away once he has a focus?
He certainly sounds like he's out of control and you need to stop his selfish driving for everyone else as much as his own safety.
I'd definitely ban him for 2 weeks and review the footage every couple of days after that. Hopefully he'll calm down.
Perhaps ban him from taking mates so he doesn't feel the need to show off or doesn't get egged on.
I certainly wouldn't take him on a trackday it'll only make him think he's a better driver than he is.
The other option would be to swap the Peugeot 107, for a bigger but slower underpowered car as a small hatchback is quite chuckable.
Good luck.
Dr Jekyll said:
Am I the only one flabbergasted at the number of people who regard this type of behavior as normal for a 17 year old? Misjudging a country lane bend occasionally or putting foot to the floor for a couple of nervous miles when there is nobody about perhaps. But not the kind of antics described by the OP, not on a regular basis.
Perhaps not the majority but certainly not uncommon. Why else do you think statistics make teenage boys such a high insurance risk?Trexthedinosaur said:
If he isn't willing to listen, nor change his ways then simply take the car off him.
Its your car, that you pay for, so stop.
He managed before he was 17 without a car, you cannot be walked all over with such a sense of entitlement.
This I agree with, and from experience Its your car, that you pay for, so stop.
He managed before he was 17 without a car, you cannot be walked all over with such a sense of entitlement.
I mentioned above I managed to put my mothers car on its side when I was 17. Not surprisingly I was grounded but, also not surprisingly, I protested my innocence. I was just unlucky, the snow on that corner was more slippery than it should have been!
Similarly, I lived in the country, no buses to speak off so that left me stranded, 6 miles from my nearest friend.
Surprise, surprise, after a few weeks I realised that my pride would not help my social life and admitted that I had got it wrong and promised not to do it again. I think I still thought that somehow I was just unlucky and my parents were not being fair but I also realised that if it happened again there would be similar (or worse) consequences. So, while I still drove like a nutter I did it with a bit more care and (I think) became a safer driver.
EDIT: btw, during my "suspension" my parents went out of their way to help me with travel. eg giving me a lift to the local town etc. But of course that was at their convenience, not mine, so I still found it a real problem, especially as all my mates were getting access to cars etc at that time. With hindsight I think that was actually a deliberate move from my parents as it made me realise that they were not being vindictive but that they were just sticky by their rules.
Edited by brman on Tuesday 27th September 08:53
Edited by brman on Tuesday 27th September 08:54
QuickQuack said:
Yes, we've paid for the car, insurance, everything. He has supposedly paid for the lessons, but only with money he "borrowed" from us. Not that he's likely to pay any of it back.
QuickQuack said:
Having watched that footage, I am not going to pay a penny to fix anything that goes wrong on the car, though I suspect he'll get it out of his mother.
So he has no personal investment in the car. If it gets bent (not if he bends it, it won't be his fault, of course), then there's another one where that came from.QuickQuack said:
And yes, he has had many hours of instruction from me since a very young age on our own field as well a lot of time invested on the roads both when he was driving, and when I was driving explaining about observation, positioning, appropriate speed for coditions, different cars' capabilities etc. It's not as if we just threw the money at it and let him loose. Unfortunately, even back when I used to teach him (and his younger brother) in our field he was very overconfident.
QuickQuack said:
I had thought about taking him to a track a long time ago but my wife didn't think he was sensible enough; she felt that he would then think he was god's gift to driving and drive like he was on a track all the time rather than use the track to satisfy his youthful desire for speed. I have taken him to gokart tracks many, many times over the years; he obviously hasn't learnt that speed is for the track only. Unfortunately I think my wife is right and any advanced driving skills training will only give him a false sense of security right now.
So he thinks he knows "how to drive", because he has some experience of handling a car. But he's learnt that in a safe environment, and he doesn't know (or, by the sound of it, care) how little he understands the difference between that and the public road.QuickQuack said:
Cycling isn't that easy either, it's all rather dangerous, twisty, country lanes around here.
...and he might meet somebody driving like he drives...Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 27th September 09:36
I do not have kids. But, I was like your son from 18-24. Sadly i learned my lesson of slowing down through practical means - mainly through crashing.
Nothing my parents would stay or do would slow me down - banning me from it just made it worse, i'll get the keys back eventually and then go even faster as i had a deficit that i needed to expend. Access to company cars made it even worse - it just managed to allow for the dings and bumps to be hidden easily behind company politics/paperwork. I was a nightmare. It all ended up in crown court eventually when someone else got hurt (luckily minor - we all climbed out and shook hands) which was a big climb down for me. I still reflect on it now as i get in the car - both as a driver and a passenger. I digress...
Your kid has the speed bug, educating is not going to work, the right foot is a heavier than the left, this is not going to go away very quickly or easily, and possibly will get worse as other kids get in the car.
(EDITED - as just read a post before about you karting etc.)
You might as well embrace it somewhat through a hobby - and hopefully it slowly works itself out. Old track day car? karting? MX? Something you can do together? A potential hobby for both of you? family bonding? I think you already said you ride, so get a couple of 2nd hand MX or Enduro and green lane/track it? At least that will teach that speed is fun when applicable... but it hurts when it does not.
Banning is the final option - simply take the keys off him, SORN the car. Give him a 125cc scooter and some winter gear. Here's what you could of won car on the driveway if you were sensible in the depths of winter.
Good luck OP - i've got all of this to come in 17years and 5 months :-)
Nothing my parents would stay or do would slow me down - banning me from it just made it worse, i'll get the keys back eventually and then go even faster as i had a deficit that i needed to expend. Access to company cars made it even worse - it just managed to allow for the dings and bumps to be hidden easily behind company politics/paperwork. I was a nightmare. It all ended up in crown court eventually when someone else got hurt (luckily minor - we all climbed out and shook hands) which was a big climb down for me. I still reflect on it now as i get in the car - both as a driver and a passenger. I digress...
Your kid has the speed bug, educating is not going to work, the right foot is a heavier than the left, this is not going to go away very quickly or easily, and possibly will get worse as other kids get in the car.
(EDITED - as just read a post before about you karting etc.)
You might as well embrace it somewhat through a hobby - and hopefully it slowly works itself out. Old track day car? karting? MX? Something you can do together? A potential hobby for both of you? family bonding? I think you already said you ride, so get a couple of 2nd hand MX or Enduro and green lane/track it? At least that will teach that speed is fun when applicable... but it hurts when it does not.
Banning is the final option - simply take the keys off him, SORN the car. Give him a 125cc scooter and some winter gear. Here's what you could of won car on the driveway if you were sensible in the depths of winter.
Good luck OP - i've got all of this to come in 17years and 5 months :-)
Edited by BobSaunders on Tuesday 27th September 09:23
Very sad to hear the OP's response. I don't know what I would do in his situation, but just like some people really really shouldn't be allowed near drink... it sounds like this guy just doesn't need to be allowed near a car.
It does sound like only one thing is going to educate him in the short term, and that's an accident.
It does sound like only one thing is going to educate him in the short term, and that's an accident.
Echo comments about taking the car away, and when the toys get thrown out the pram state that it is their fault and their fault alone, not just the driving (which could be corrected) but the bad attitude. Yes I know you're in the middle of the countryside and he'd be screwed but again that's his fault alone.
The problem with taking away all car privileges is that Prince QuickQuack then has a golden parent-inflicted exuse not to go to college / get a job or whatever. Where is his motivation, he knows he has a roof over his head and as much food as he wants anyway, and as others have said he probably doesn’t have any kind of career vision / ambition.
He’d probably relish the opportunity to blame his parents for his lack of motorised mobility, therefore his absolute inability to go to college / work / job centre or whatever. This would mean that because of his parents, he has no choice but to wake up at 1pm, play video games all day and scrounge lifts in to town at night.
This is bone idle and selfish, yes- but that’s exactly how the 17 year old brain is.
I really don’t know what could be done about this other than simply refusing to wholly facilitate it
I know that the angelic shining example types who absolutely never drove irresponsibly as a 17 year old are massing and waiting to jump on me for saying this, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of 17 year olds, particularly males, drive well beyond the confines of both the law and their own skill level a lot of the time, if not all. This has always been the case. The difference now is that instead of being blissfully unaware of this like my parents were, the OP has a camera recording it.
He’d probably relish the opportunity to blame his parents for his lack of motorised mobility, therefore his absolute inability to go to college / work / job centre or whatever. This would mean that because of his parents, he has no choice but to wake up at 1pm, play video games all day and scrounge lifts in to town at night.
This is bone idle and selfish, yes- but that’s exactly how the 17 year old brain is.
I really don’t know what could be done about this other than simply refusing to wholly facilitate it
I know that the angelic shining example types who absolutely never drove irresponsibly as a 17 year old are massing and waiting to jump on me for saying this, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of 17 year olds, particularly males, drive well beyond the confines of both the law and their own skill level a lot of the time, if not all. This has always been the case. The difference now is that instead of being blissfully unaware of this like my parents were, the OP has a camera recording it.
I was going to say "review the footage with him and see how he reacts/if he thinks his driving is acceptable followed by telling him that you will continue to review the footage and any bad driving/non-use of the dashcam will result in removal of the keys for 1 week/2weeks/1month etc", but having seen his response to your concern, I'll just say "remove the keys" - hopefully he'll have calmed down by the time he can afford a car of his own and will certainly be more careful if it's his own car/costs.
Buster73 said:
My currant got flashed by a fixed speed camera that the clot knew was there with the accompanying 3 points that followed about three months in to his driving career , probably the best thing that could have happened he then had nearly two years of another error and he would have lost his licence.
So you're saying the OP should take the car, get it flashed in a 30 and then blame his step-son so that he only has 3 points left to play with? I like it QuickQuack said:
Thank you very very much everyone for the responses, it all helps. I'll try to answer as many questions as I can.
It actually wasn't my idea either to install the cam or watch the footage, it was my wife's, and thank god for that. When we called him down for a talk after watching, I actually stayed quiet and let my wife, by far the calmer one of us, do the talking; at least until he started denying driving dangerously, then making bullst excuses about why he was speeding, talking back rather tttishly, accused us of invading his privacy and started demading that he be allowed to watch the footage from our cars. At that point, I did pretty much read the riot act, albeit calmer than I expected I would be, and tried to explain to him that him that had he been observed by a police officer, he would've lost his licence, we then tried explaining about the dangers he has been posing to others, particularly children, both at the school and in the built up areas. Unfortunately, he didn't seem too care, he said it was him risking going to prison and it was for him to decide on that risk, completely ignoring the impact of actually killing anyone, let alone a child, on anyone else.
It ended up with him indignant that we had been "spying on him" rather than accepting that he had done anything wrong. FFS, the dashcam's been there for the last 9 months and he knew precisely why it was there! We have even reviewed his incidents while he was learning to drive! All this is also after he swung into our own courtyard so fast the other day that if his 5 year old sister had been anywhere near, he wouldn't have seen her and she would've had no chance. He had a good talking to at the time but it obviously had no effect.
I have seen and read 10PS's story before, I think there's a better version somewhere else than those linked which have been snipped a bit. I might make ours read it before he does something similar.
Snipped a bit....It actually wasn't my idea either to install the cam or watch the footage, it was my wife's, and thank god for that. When we called him down for a talk after watching, I actually stayed quiet and let my wife, by far the calmer one of us, do the talking; at least until he started denying driving dangerously, then making bulls
t excuses about why he was speeding, talking back rather tttishly, accused us of invading his privacy and started demading that he be allowed to watch the footage from our cars. At that point, I did pretty much read the riot act, albeit calmer than I expected I would be, and tried to explain to him that him that had he been observed by a police officer, he would've lost his licence, we then tried explaining about the dangers he has been posing to others, particularly children, both at the school and in the built up areas. Unfortunately, he didn't seem too care, he said it was him risking going to prison and it was for him to decide on that risk, completely ignoring the impact of actually killing anyone, let alone a child, on anyone else.It ended up with him indignant that we had been "spying on him" rather than accepting that he had done anything wrong. FFS, the dashcam's been there for the last 9 months and he knew precisely why it was there! We have even reviewed his incidents while he was learning to drive! All this is also after he swung into our own courtyard so fast the other day that if his 5 year old sister had been anywhere near, he wouldn't have seen her and she would've had no chance. He had a good talking to at the time but it obviously had no effect.
I have seen and read 10PS's story before, I think there's a better version somewhere else than those linked which have been snipped a bit. I might make ours read it before he does something similar.
Problem is that he is 17 - that discussion was never going to end up with him saying "Yeah, dad, I'm a cock, I understand the error of my ways, I'll never do it again".
I'd suggest you do let him review the footage from your car - and let him critique your driving. I assume it will be somewhat more measured! You can have a sensible discussion about which rules to break, and which rules should be obeyed.
Black box may be worth it - my godson is a serious speed fiend, and will race bloody anything. Both his father and I were seriously concerned about him taking the wheel, but the black box has turned it into "how much discount can I get off the insurance" game. Getting one fitted and him having to pay the excess might be a route out.
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