Former MP accused of mtb trail sabbotage
Discussion
As the title says, former Labour MP Ron Davies is accused of sabbotaging trails used by mountain bikers in Caerphilly:
https://dirtmountainbike.com/news/former-mp-ron-da...
May his balls turn square and fester at the corners.
https://dirtmountainbike.com/news/former-mp-ron-da...
May his balls turn square and fester at the corners.
Plenty of that goes on round my way. But it's low level stuff, and done by someone who isn't very strong. Silver Birch logs dragged off the piles left by forest management works, and dumped all over a nice fast, wide path on some MOD land.
I used to put them neatly back on the piles, but now I've taken to 'caber tossing' them into the undergrowth, whilst swearing that I'll crucify whoever is doing it. If I catch 'em at it they'd better be on their toes quick-sharp is all I can say. The forest is a dangerous place, and a big old branch could quite easily fall on someone's head...
I used to put them neatly back on the piles, but now I've taken to 'caber tossing' them into the undergrowth, whilst swearing that I'll crucify whoever is doing it. If I catch 'em at it they'd better be on their toes quick-sharp is all I can say. The forest is a dangerous place, and a big old branch could quite easily fall on someone's head...
yellowjack said:
Plenty of that goes on round my way. But it's low level stuff, and done by someone who isn't very strong. Silver Birch logs dragged off the piles left by forest management works, and dumped all over a nice fast, wide path on some MOD land.
I used to put them neatly back on the piles, but now I've taken to 'caber tossing' them into the undergrowth, whilst swearing that I'll crucify whoever is doing it. If I catch 'em at it they'd better be on their toes quick-sharp is all I can say. The forest is a dangerous place, and a big old branch could quite easily fall on someone's head...
I used to put them neatly back on the piles, but now I've taken to 'caber tossing' them into the undergrowth, whilst swearing that I'll crucify whoever is doing it. If I catch 'em at it they'd better be on their toes quick-sharp is all I can say. The forest is a dangerous place, and a big old branch could quite easily fall on someone's head...
Yellowjack, yesterday.
If you want to stop trail saboteurs and think you know who it is, there is a better way than direct confrontation. Approach suspect and say, "Just wondering if you can help? One of my friend's kids was hurt quite badly on his bike near here, someone had put some obstructions onto the trail he was riding. Have you seen anyone doing this, the police are asking for more information?"
What a lot of these oafs fail to consider is that many trails existed due to wild animals creating them and their clumsy and misguided efforts to 'stop bikes' could easily injure an innocent wild animal.
What a lot of these oafs fail to consider is that many trails existed due to wild animals creating them and their clumsy and misguided efforts to 'stop bikes' could easily injure an innocent wild animal.
As an ex downhill mtber/racer can I provide an alternate view on this one?
Couple of points. Never heard of this bloke but I did hear him on the radio (5live breakfast, interviewed by Nicky Campbell) the other day regarding this. First thing is he claimed he was removing the rocks, not adding them. I'm taking that is probably a lie given he is a politician and his lips were moving. He did sound like a reasonable bloke however.
He did go on however to make a wider point, and in my view it was well made. I live around the corner from Caerphilly mountain and I've taken my daughters for picnics in the bluebell woods there - they are beautiful. There are wide open trails for walking and taking in the wildlife, it's a really lovely tranquil place.
Ron was referring to man made trails (I presume local trail builders are building berms, bombholes, jumps etc) and attacking them with vigour, as is our want. However without knowing exactly where the trail is to which he is referring, I tend to agree with him that there's a place to do this and the bluebell woods is not the place to do it. If you google image search "caerphilly bluebell woods" you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
Couple of points. Never heard of this bloke but I did hear him on the radio (5live breakfast, interviewed by Nicky Campbell) the other day regarding this. First thing is he claimed he was removing the rocks, not adding them. I'm taking that is probably a lie given he is a politician and his lips were moving. He did sound like a reasonable bloke however.
He did go on however to make a wider point, and in my view it was well made. I live around the corner from Caerphilly mountain and I've taken my daughters for picnics in the bluebell woods there - they are beautiful. There are wide open trails for walking and taking in the wildlife, it's a really lovely tranquil place.
Ron was referring to man made trails (I presume local trail builders are building berms, bombholes, jumps etc) and attacking them with vigour, as is our want. However without knowing exactly where the trail is to which he is referring, I tend to agree with him that there's a place to do this and the bluebell woods is not the place to do it. If you google image search "caerphilly bluebell woods" you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
hornetrider said:
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
There is a time and a place for certain types of trail. IMHO, one of the truly great, unalloyed joys of mtb is the pinned, flat-out (and at least slightly out of control) descent, with a few spicy extras - jumps, drops, roots, rocks - but, above all else, flow. It is absorbing to the point of being meditative.However, I can and do understand that paths used by walkers are definitely not the place to experience this, or at least not at all times.
It is an emotive topic, but I've seen, first hand, the way trails are built without consideration, but also how perfectly remote and harmless (to other users of the open space) trails are repeatedly obstructed.
Digga said:
hornetrider said:
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
There is a time and a place for certain types of trail. IMHO, one of the truly great, unalloyed joys of mtb is the pinned, flat-out (and at least slightly out of control) descent, with a few spicy extras - jumps, drops, roots, rocks - but, above all else, flow. It is absorbing to the point of being meditative.However, I can and do understand that paths used by walkers are definitely not the place to experience this, or at least not at all times.
It is an emotive topic, but I've seen, first hand, the way trails are built without consideration, but also how perfectly remote and harmless (to other users of the open space) trails are repeatedly obstructed.
Some Gump said:
Yellowjack, yesterday.
This was more what I had in mind...
...although I really want to save that sort of anger for those very fine fellows known as 'Motocross riders'. At least amateurish attempts at trail sabotage can be undone with minimal effort. The mess motorbikes leave whole swathes of trails in takes months, if not years to recover, and they can cover so much of an area within a very short time. Grrr!
yellowjack said:
...although I really want to save that sort of anger for those very fine fellows known as 'Motocross riders'. At least amateurish attempts at trail sabotage can be undone with minimal effort. The mess motorbikes leave whole swathes of trails in takes months, if not years to recover, and they can cover so much of an area within a very short time. Grrr!
Have you considered that walkers might feel the same way about you? All these things are relative... 
Seriously though, the devil is in the detail as already said. Too many bikers think they can modify tracks and hack down them at full tilt, regardless of other users. There again, too many dog walkers think a bike 30 feet away is fair game for their dogs teeth
Some of our local singletrack has been ruined by those that think it is not fun if it doesn't involve a 10 foot jump. Other bits have indeed been affected by motorcross, but not as much if I am honest.
So, yes, probably a non story created by those that don't respect others use of the countryside. And no, I don't know if that comment is aimed at riders or the MP
brman said:
Have you considered that walkers might feel the same way about you? All these things are relative...
Seriously though, the devil is in the detail as already said. Too many bikers think they can modify tracks and hack down them at full tilt, regardless of other users. There again, too many dog walkers think a bike 30 feet away is fair game for their dogs teeth
Some of our local singletrack has been ruined by those that think it is not fun if it doesn't involve a 10 foot jump. Other bits have indeed been affected by motorcross, but not as much if I am honest.
So, yes, probably a non story created by those that don't respect others use of the countryside. And no, I don't know if that comment is aimed at riders or the MP
In all seriousness (when I'm not exaggerating my feelings and generally hamming it up for the benefit of the wider internet) I try to get on with folk I meet when I'm out on the bike. I always yield the trail to walkers, dog walkers, and horse riders, and most of the time it's me that yields when I meet another cyclist. I love to stop to chat to people I meet (I'm a bit weird like that), and I like nothing more than shattering someone's poor preconceptions of MTBers as a "group". There are always going to be a grumpy few who you can't get through to, but hey? That's life. Sometimes I'll be disappointed to have to bail on a KOM attempt at a segment, but there's always next time. Generally speaking, if there are walkers that I can see ahead, I take a different route where possible. Seriously though, the devil is in the detail as already said. Too many bikers think they can modify tracks and hack down them at full tilt, regardless of other users. There again, too many dog walkers think a bike 30 feet away is fair game for their dogs teeth
Some of our local singletrack has been ruined by those that think it is not fun if it doesn't involve a 10 foot jump. Other bits have indeed been affected by motorcross, but not as much if I am honest.
So, yes, probably a non story created by those that don't respect others use of the countryside. And no, I don't know if that comment is aimed at riders or the MP
I'd agree that the devil is in the detail. And I tend to regard those MTBers who modify trails as "the enemy within". With few exceptions, the modifications they make are badly planned and poorly executed. Gav? I'm looking at you, and your "berms" right here... https://www.strava.com/segments/7219685 ...Those stupid little double ramps they make that do nothing but pitch your front wheel up? The pits they dig to stop you rolling over the top? Amateurish jumps and drops that leave no space to roll into the next trail section? Fine if all you want to do is the jump, then skid to a halt and push the bike back up, but seriously detrimental to the flow of a trail. The little s
ts have even started digging out on the far banks of gully drops hereabouts, shifting the line, ruining the flow, and putting KOMs out of reach. So yes, I'd have to agree that poor trail modifications are worse then motocross riders. If you want to dig holes, volunteer for a maintenance day at a proper trail centre. Or get mummy to take you, and your bucket and spade, to the beach. 
The dog walkers thing can be pretty annoying. Fine if the damned thing is on a lead, or if it 'comes when called'. Or even if the owner makes a decent attempt at getting it on a lead but fails. It's the smug smirkers who seem to enjoy watching their dog chase you that are the worst. As I say, I try to avoid the most popular dog-walking areas anyway. It's no fun for either group if we're competing for the same space. I met a lovely lady yesterday who couldn't stop her Jack Russel from chasing me. I tried everything, got off the bike, removed my helmet, crouched down to avoid being scary, but the dog wouldn't settle, and certainly wouldn't make friends. The owner was lovely, though, and thanked me for making the effort. Not her fault, as I shot out of the woods too close for her to get the dog onto it's lead before we were 'in conflict'.
For the avoidance of any doubt, I'll say that I'm very much an 'XC' and natural single-track fan. I like things challenging, and technical to some extent, but I'm not a fan of artificial trail features if I'm being honest. Well made trails, that are marked and graded, are one thing. Colossally dangerous trail modifications that appear overnight on previously unmolested trails, to the surprise and alarm of anyone not involved in building them, however? Just f
k right off...yellowjack said:
In all seriousness (when I'm not exaggerating my feelings and generally hamming it up for the benefit of the wider internet) I try to get on with folk I meet when I'm out on the bike. I always yield the trail to walkers, dog walkers, and horse riders, and most of the time it's me that yields when I meet another cyclist. I love to stop to chat to people I meet (I'm a bit weird like that), and I like nothing more than shattering someone's poor preconceptions of MTBers as a "group". There are always going to be a grumpy few who you can't get through to, but hey? That's life. Sometimes I'll be disappointed to have to bail on a KOM attempt at a segment, but there's always next time. Generally speaking, if there are walkers that I can see ahead, I take a different route where possible.
I'd agree that the devil is in the detail. And I tend to regard those MTBers who modify trails as "the enemy within". With few exceptions, the modifications they make are badly planned and poorly executed. Gav? I'm looking at you, and your "berms" right here... https://www.strava.com/segments/7219685 ...Those stupid little double ramps they make that do nothing but pitch your front wheel up? The pits they dig to stop you rolling over the top? Amateurish jumps and drops that leave no space to roll into the next trail section? Fine if all you want to do is the jump, then skid to a halt and push the bike back up, but seriously detrimental to the flow of a trail. The little sts have even started digging out on the far banks of gully drops hereabouts, shifting the line, ruining the flow, and putting KOMs out of reach. So yes, I'd have to agree that poor trail modifications are worse then motocross riders. If you want to dig holes, volunteer for a maintenance day at a proper trail centre. Or get mummy to take you, and your bucket and spade, to the beach.
The dog walkers thing can be pretty annoying. Fine if the damned thing is on a lead, or if it 'comes when called'. Or even if the owner makes a decent attempt at getting it on a lead but fails. It's the smug smirkers who seem to enjoy watching their dog chase you that are the worst. As I say, I try to avoid the most popular dog-walking areas anyway. It's no fun for either group if we're competing for the same space. I met a lovely lady yesterday who couldn't stop her Jack Russel from chasing me. I tried everything, got off the bike, removed my helmet, crouched down to avoid being scary, but the dog wouldn't settle, and certainly wouldn't make friends. The owner was lovely, though, and thanked me for making the effort. Not her fault, as I shot out of the woods too close for her to get the dog onto it's lead before we were 'in conflict'.
For the avoidance of any doubt, I'll say that I'm very much an 'XC' and natural single-track fan. I like things challenging, and technical to some extent, but I'm not a fan of artificial trail features if I'm being honest. Well made trails, that are marked and graded, are one thing. Colossally dangerous trail modifications that appear overnight on previously unmolested trails, to the surprise and alarm of anyone not involved in building them, however? Just fk right off...
I have to say I agree with everything you say there.... I'd agree that the devil is in the detail. And I tend to regard those MTBers who modify trails as "the enemy within". With few exceptions, the modifications they make are badly planned and poorly executed. Gav? I'm looking at you, and your "berms" right here... https://www.strava.com/segments/7219685 ...Those stupid little double ramps they make that do nothing but pitch your front wheel up? The pits they dig to stop you rolling over the top? Amateurish jumps and drops that leave no space to roll into the next trail section? Fine if all you want to do is the jump, then skid to a halt and push the bike back up, but seriously detrimental to the flow of a trail. The little s
ts have even started digging out on the far banks of gully drops hereabouts, shifting the line, ruining the flow, and putting KOMs out of reach. So yes, I'd have to agree that poor trail modifications are worse then motocross riders. If you want to dig holes, volunteer for a maintenance day at a proper trail centre. Or get mummy to take you, and your bucket and spade, to the beach. The dog walkers thing can be pretty annoying. Fine if the damned thing is on a lead, or if it 'comes when called'. Or even if the owner makes a decent attempt at getting it on a lead but fails. It's the smug smirkers who seem to enjoy watching their dog chase you that are the worst. As I say, I try to avoid the most popular dog-walking areas anyway. It's no fun for either group if we're competing for the same space. I met a lovely lady yesterday who couldn't stop her Jack Russel from chasing me. I tried everything, got off the bike, removed my helmet, crouched down to avoid being scary, but the dog wouldn't settle, and certainly wouldn't make friends. The owner was lovely, though, and thanked me for making the effort. Not her fault, as I shot out of the woods too close for her to get the dog onto it's lead before we were 'in conflict'.
For the avoidance of any doubt, I'll say that I'm very much an 'XC' and natural single-track fan. I like things challenging, and technical to some extent, but I'm not a fan of artificial trail features if I'm being honest. Well made trails, that are marked and graded, are one thing. Colossally dangerous trail modifications that appear overnight on previously unmolested trails, to the surprise and alarm of anyone not involved in building them, however? Just f
k right off...hornetrider said:
As an ex downhill mtber/racer can I provide an alternate view on this one?
Couple of points. Never heard of this bloke but I did hear him on the radio (5live breakfast, interviewed by Nicky Campbell) the other day regarding this. First thing is he claimed he was removing the rocks, not adding them. I'm taking that is probably a lie given he is a politician and his lips were moving. He did sound like a reasonable bloke however.
He did go on however to make a wider point, and in my view it was well made. I live around the corner from Caerphilly mountain and I've taken my daughters for picnics in the bluebell woods there - they are beautiful. There are wide open trails for walking and taking in the wildlife, it's a really lovely tranquil place.
Ron was referring to man made trails (I presume local trail builders are building berms, bombholes, jumps etc) and attacking them with vigour, as is our want. However without knowing exactly where the trail is to which he is referring, I tend to agree with him that there's a place to do this and the bluebell woods is not the place to do it. If you google image search "caerphilly bluebell woods" you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
I agree with you for the most part - few points of order.Couple of points. Never heard of this bloke but I did hear him on the radio (5live breakfast, interviewed by Nicky Campbell) the other day regarding this. First thing is he claimed he was removing the rocks, not adding them. I'm taking that is probably a lie given he is a politician and his lips were moving. He did sound like a reasonable bloke however.
He did go on however to make a wider point, and in my view it was well made. I live around the corner from Caerphilly mountain and I've taken my daughters for picnics in the bluebell woods there - they are beautiful. There are wide open trails for walking and taking in the wildlife, it's a really lovely tranquil place.
Ron was referring to man made trails (I presume local trail builders are building berms, bombholes, jumps etc) and attacking them with vigour, as is our want. However without knowing exactly where the trail is to which he is referring, I tend to agree with him that there's a place to do this and the bluebell woods is not the place to do it. If you google image search "caerphilly bluebell woods" you'll see what I mean.
Anyway, the devil is in the detail, I don't know exactly where the trails are built, but if it's where he said they were, then I tend to agree that they shouldn't be there.
Ron Davies made a few headlines in the 90's for lying about sexual liaisons with strangers in the woods, he claimed he'd been "mugged by a rastafarian" or been "looking for a Loo" some stuff like that, by his own admission he has a personality disorder and a desire to seek out dangerous situations, he'd probably have been happier on a bike. So yeah, not known for talking the truth.
I'm not sure where the Bluebell Woods, are but I'm 99% certain that the trails Ron was messing about with are the ones that run from the top of the mountain behind Caerphilly Mountain Snack Bar, they've been there for more than 20 years, NRW which own the woods are aware of them and the ones at Forrest Fawr that join with them above Castle Coch and the ones at the Wenault and are happy for Mountain Bikers to use them. The MTB trail are of course open to anyone, but they're completely separate to the purpose-built walking trails. NRW have removed some man made features in the past, some were well made, some were anything but, but NRW were open to allowing man made features to be built and wanted to discuss formalising trails etc as long as there was agreement with all parties, but this was communicated via notices posted in the wood which were destroyed by someone.
I can't agree that MTB trails shouldn't be here, or there because of reasons X,Y,Z, name any little copse anywhere and someone will claim it's should only be used by them and like-minded souls because of whatever - ultimately these woods are own by NRW who are a Welsh Government Body and they want EVERYONE to enjoy them, all the riders I know who ride there are more than happy to discuss a fair divvy up of the trails, we don't want to annoy dog walkers, horse riders, ramblers, walkers etc (even the Doggers, in fact we'd like to give them dirty swines as much space a possible) but these hard-core types who want to claim that this little corner of Wales which they don't own, is somehow theirs by right aren't having it - they seem to think that their access is perfectly legal, whereas cycle access isn't and there's no basis for it.
Digga said:
Strava... TBF and this is just IME, the dicks on Strava probably do more damage, to more trails, by diluting the line and difficulty, in pursuit of their trinkets and baubles.
I can't disagree with you there. Sadly.Lots of my local trails were used in the TORQ 12:12 back in August. Quite a few new lines appeared as a result,and were so heavily worn-in during the course of the race that they are now the lines ridden by most riders. Yes, it makes the trail faster, and yes, it puts you higher up the leaderboard, but that's no great boast if you're riding an easier line than everyone who rode it before you.
I'd rather ride the trails as presented than try to make shortcuts. There are one or two riders locally who are heartily fed up with the shortcutters, and have started to stack logs to prevent said shortcuts from taking hold. I like Strava, I really do. But it shouldn't get to the point where you're spoiling others' enjoyment of trails in order to shave a few seconds off a segment time. Strava really isn't that important, FFS...
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