RE: Fanning the 911 R's flames: PH Blog
Discussion
E65Ross said:
justboxsters said:
These dream cars like the R, are simply high-end aspiration devices designed to drive sales of Porches regular models. Like an RS6 is to the majority of sale that are a 2.0TDI S-Line with 20" wheels.
Do you really believe this? I'm willing to bet most A4 2.0 tdi or A6 2.0 tdi drivers don't even know what an RS4 or RS6 is!J4CKO said:
Porsche know that if they produce too many of them if will negatively affect the whole situation, they are masters at it and dont want to kill the Golden Goose (second Willy Wonka Reference in one post !)
This.For me a really interesting (but unanswerable) question would be, if the 991R wasn't limited in any way, and just a regular production model, how many would they have sold?
I'm sure there would be some people delighted for that to be the case and would have bought one regardless, but I'm sure there are also a lot of people who then wouldn't then have felt the need to buy one.
Impasse said:
AshBurrows said:
This is an article?! Christ.
Yep, another day another Porsche Advertorial. Except this time it isn't about a car, it's a notification that there may be another advertorial coming soon. Thing is, we all knew that would always be the case. Much like the existence of the philosophical tree in the forest, the 911R only really exists in the hands of journalists — it's very unlikely anyone's ever going to encounter one.
hufggfg said:
J4CKO said:
Porsche know that if they produce too many of them if will negatively affect the whole situation, they are masters at it and dont want to kill the Golden Goose (second Willy Wonka Reference in one post !)
This.For me a really interesting (but unanswerable) question would be, if the 991R wasn't limited in any way, and just a regular production model, how many would they have sold?
I'm sure there would be some people delighted for that to be the case and would have bought one regardless, but I'm sure there are also a lot of people who then wouldn't then have felt the need to buy one.
But I do agree the limited supply is key to how well the R is doing as a commodity.
Hopefully Porsche can use what it has learnt in with the R to make forth coming cars better & more involving as well as proving their is a business case for them - like a manual 991.2 GT3.
The one thing porsche had miss handled is the allocation of them - at least Ford were imaginative with the allocation of the new GT (& made more). But I gather its impossible to walk into a Ferrari dealer and buy a brand new one without having jumped through numerous hoopes (including buying used ones first, unless I'm beleiving the hype) - but we don't lay into Ferrari like this.
Lets at least there will be a 991.2R & they make a few more to go arround.
HighwayStar said:
E65Ross said:
justboxsters said:
These dream cars like the R, are simply high-end aspiration devices designed to drive sales of Porches regular models. Like an RS6 is to the majority of sale that are a 2.0TDI S-Line with 20" wheels.
Do you really believe this? I'm willing to bet most A4 2.0 tdi or A6 2.0 tdi drivers don't even know what an RS4 or RS6 is!however, i do think the halo factor exists. media and car fans know that GT, RS and R mean something in Porsche world and talk/write a lot about their greatness. this "means" that a fat-boy standard 981 must be an awesome motorsport-inspired driving machine...
Some people clearly don't get the idea of an 'aspirational' brand. That's what these cars are designed to lead - to be a figurehead.
The shift is toward new tech all the time - and the idea of a 'retro' model that has a manual gearbox and doesn't panda to the need for 'new' all the time is a nod by the manufacturers to that niche of customers.
The fact that those customers are willing to pay 'ludicrous' money should either be accepted or just laughed at. Or admired for their commitment.
I shall just be asking my mate who is on the R waiting list very very very nicely for a drive.....
The shift is toward new tech all the time - and the idea of a 'retro' model that has a manual gearbox and doesn't panda to the need for 'new' all the time is a nod by the manufacturers to that niche of customers.
The fact that those customers are willing to pay 'ludicrous' money should either be accepted or just laughed at. Or admired for their commitment.
I shall just be asking my mate who is on the R waiting list very very very nicely for a drive.....
The 911R only exists as an investment due to Porsche's largesse. If Porsche increased the number of 911Rs (and the GT3 RS) available by making it much more readily available, or brought out an even better 911RR then I suspect used prices would halve overnight. If Porsche do make a new manual GT3 it is going to be interesting what happens to the current values of the 911R.
It isn't the limited production run that annoys me with the recent headline Porsches, its that people were bumped off the waiting lists. Did Ferrari or Mclaren do the same? I know Mclaren performed some shenanigans over increasing the number of models made for their limited edition cars over and above the agreed number at launch, but did they bump people off the waiting list? Have Ferrari done similar? Assuming you brought the car to drive it rather than as an investment, not getting the car has to be worse than the Manufacturer producing more than they originally said?
I'm in agreement that without the flippers and investors Porsche would never have sold the same number of 911Rs in the same time period. In terms of the tiny brand damage suffered they'll get over it, although I wish they would learn the lesson of it otherwise we are in for a depressing time ahead with the best cars reserved for the in crowd.
It isn't the limited production run that annoys me with the recent headline Porsches, its that people were bumped off the waiting lists. Did Ferrari or Mclaren do the same? I know Mclaren performed some shenanigans over increasing the number of models made for their limited edition cars over and above the agreed number at launch, but did they bump people off the waiting list? Have Ferrari done similar? Assuming you brought the car to drive it rather than as an investment, not getting the car has to be worse than the Manufacturer producing more than they originally said?
I'm in agreement that without the flippers and investors Porsche would never have sold the same number of 911Rs in the same time period. In terms of the tiny brand damage suffered they'll get over it, although I wish they would learn the lesson of it otherwise we are in for a depressing time ahead with the best cars reserved for the in crowd.
I am tired of Porsche "specials". As a long time 911 lover/owner I switched to Aston Vantage a few years ago for the simple pleasure of a fine handling car at a reasonable price and now cannot go back. Why? Because the real driver's models of 911 have become collector's pieces and I simply can't afford them anymore (I'm retired). Basic Porsches are not the simple, pure machines they once were. It's sad that Porsche have lost a purist buyer (like many others, I suspect) who have lost faith with the brand because they want to charge stupid money for what should be a regular model. Shame on them.
sidesauce said:
E65Ross said:
I think you'll find some did!
There was grumbling but no way near the same level as Porsche has got with the R. I don't just mean on Pistonheads, I'm talking about all the more popular car forums.cant help see the 911-R as a raid the parts bin special. In the end it'll be another limited edition car that ends up doubling in value because its 'pure' like the old 911's. As all manufacturers do they are banking on their engineering heritage to make the car more special than it is even though they have lost their way over the last decade. Nothing post 997.2 interests me and anything i would have been able to afford 10 years back before this silly game of cars going up in value I now cant. f
k me even the nissan skyline has followed suite and can no longer be purchased for pocket change.
k me even the nissan skyline has followed suite and can no longer be purchased for pocket change. When the next GT3 arrives with the 6sp manaual option the fuss will die down. And maybe the residuals.
In Preuninger's own description, Porsche failed to differentiate their GT products between 'track rats' and 'backroad drivers' (or whatever they call them). The 911R was a toe back in to prove or disprove this with limited risk, and having been stung by their customers ire, dealers greed and bad press, I fully expect their product strategy to adjust to cover most of the demand they've proven is in both sections of their market.
As Dan said Porsche needs to sell new cars to stay in business. I see the 911R as a proof-of-concept which won't stand out like a 993 GT2, or 997 GT3 RS 4.0 given another decade. In the long-term they're not going to pursue a business model that allows dealers of their classic cars, or new cars to take such a huge chunk of the profit from their manufacturing business.
In Preuninger's own description, Porsche failed to differentiate their GT products between 'track rats' and 'backroad drivers' (or whatever they call them). The 911R was a toe back in to prove or disprove this with limited risk, and having been stung by their customers ire, dealers greed and bad press, I fully expect their product strategy to adjust to cover most of the demand they've proven is in both sections of their market.
As Dan said Porsche needs to sell new cars to stay in business. I see the 911R as a proof-of-concept which won't stand out like a 993 GT2, or 997 GT3 RS 4.0 given another decade. In the long-term they're not going to pursue a business model that allows dealers of their classic cars, or new cars to take such a huge chunk of the profit from their manufacturing business.
E65Ross said:
VVOODY said:
WCZ said:
E65Ross said:
Do you really believe this? I'm willing to bet most A4 2.0 tdi or A6 2.0 tdi drivers don't even know what an RS4 or RS6 is!
I disagree
I was agreeing with you E65.Edited by VVOODY on Wednesday 28th September 14:31
The problem here is that Porsche have claimed it is the road car enthusiast drivers car and yet even after removing all the aero stuff still they put on 20 inch wheels with 305 section back tyres? for a road car? Go figure, they are obsessed with the times still.
Do the Porsche 911R with
No aero
the standard GT3 engine that revs to 9000.
PDK or manual
Small light 18 inch wheels, 265 on the back.
Call it the Carerra CS in homage to the 1980's under rated version.
Price £99,999 and build 5000 of them. Everyone's happy. It would be like the Sierra Cosworth again. Make them all black or white.
Now that is more an every mans Porsche.
OK Fantasy Island disappears into the mist........
Do the Porsche 911R with
No aero
the standard GT3 engine that revs to 9000.
PDK or manual
Small light 18 inch wheels, 265 on the back.
Call it the Carerra CS in homage to the 1980's under rated version.
Price £99,999 and build 5000 of them. Everyone's happy. It would be like the Sierra Cosworth again. Make them all black or white.
Now that is more an every mans Porsche.
OK Fantasy Island disappears into the mist........
CS Garth said:
Lots of discussion, let's cut to the chase. How many here actually would have laid down the money for one but couldn't get hold?
Lot's of people saying they left the brand a while ago anyway. 10/20 people?
I could afford one at retail as its within the same budget as I'm spending now, but I couldn't afford more than a shed for family duty if I did spend the bulk of my cash on a ~£140k car, and I need a family car for another couple of years. Once I've got the kids out of my hair I am very much in the market for something like this, although I'm probably looking at 2 cars each at ~£70k.Lot's of people saying they left the brand a while ago anyway. 10/20 people?
The car is only so hyped because the market is currently so hyped. Porsche could probably paint a dog turd in stripes and call it a limited edition 911 and the production run would sell out before most people knew it was even available.
That isn't to say that the 991 R doesn't live up to its hype as a drivers' car, but I suspect that most owners will never find out.
It's just the latest tulip bulb.
That isn't to say that the 991 R doesn't live up to its hype as a drivers' car, but I suspect that most owners will never find out.
It's just the latest tulip bulb.
Because people who asked their dealer if they could have one were told "sorry, our allocation is already spoken for".
And that then drives frustration, and purchasing.
If buying a new Porsche every two years doesn't get you on the special Big Boys list, maybe buying a new one every 12 months will?
It also gives dealers the option to bribe or reward or apologise to specific customers.
"Sorry about that cock-up with your 918. Thanks for your understanding. Tell you what - (checks over shoulder, whispers) do you fancy a 911R?"
And that then drives frustration, and purchasing.
If buying a new Porsche every two years doesn't get you on the special Big Boys list, maybe buying a new one every 12 months will?
It also gives dealers the option to bribe or reward or apologise to specific customers.
"Sorry about that cock-up with your 918. Thanks for your understanding. Tell you what - (checks over shoulder, whispers) do you fancy a 911R?"
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