Discussion
I'm looking potentially purchasing a post 2007 W221 S-class (or just possibly an equivalent CL class coupe) as my daily driver.
I've owned a 2007 S-class diesel, before, so I know the base car a little, but I'm interested in peoples' thoughts on the two engines. It would be a choice between the 517bhp V12 and the 525bhp 6.3 litre V12, so there doesn't seem to be much in it in terms of power output (both ample?).
And whilst it's not very PistonHeads, I know, I'm much more interested in refinement than performance or handling (hence I'm guessing that the V12 is my best bet, as a V12 ought to be inherently smoother?).
Is there anyone here who has experience of both engines, who could comment on the pros and cons, and what to look for?
I've owned a 2007 S-class diesel, before, so I know the base car a little, but I'm interested in peoples' thoughts on the two engines. It would be a choice between the 517bhp V12 and the 525bhp 6.3 litre V12, so there doesn't seem to be much in it in terms of power output (both ample?).
And whilst it's not very PistonHeads, I know, I'm much more interested in refinement than performance or handling (hence I'm guessing that the V12 is my best bet, as a V12 ought to be inherently smoother?).
Is there anyone here who has experience of both engines, who could comment on the pros and cons, and what to look for?
No ownership experience of the V12 but have done plenty of research when toying with the idea of upgrading from my current 6.3L V8 equipped car.
Performance would be pretty similar unless you do a lot of driving at warp speeds. Fuel consumption in everyday use would be pretty similar though I am sure the V12 would drink anything under the table if being pushed along.
Maintenance costs would be much the same as the V8, but if things go astray bills would start to add up much quicker with the V12.
But I reckon you have already answered your own question - go with the V12. You would not be able to fully enjoy the V8 knowing you almost bought the V12!!!!
Performance would be pretty similar unless you do a lot of driving at warp speeds. Fuel consumption in everyday use would be pretty similar though I am sure the V12 would drink anything under the table if being pushed along.
Maintenance costs would be much the same as the V8, but if things go astray bills would start to add up much quicker with the V12.
But I reckon you have already answered your own question - go with the V12. You would not be able to fully enjoy the V8 knowing you almost bought the V12!!!!
Thanks.
I came to similar conclusions as your self, so I guess what I'm wondering is: if the V8 and V12 both have similar performance, economy and running costs, why do they both exist?
Unless there are distinct differences in their raison d'etre, why did Mercedes go to the expense and trouble of developing and marketing both engines?
I came to similar conclusions as your self, so I guess what I'm wondering is: if the V8 and V12 both have similar performance, economy and running costs, why do they both exist?
Unless there are distinct differences in their raison d'etre, why did Mercedes go to the expense and trouble of developing and marketing both engines?
As far as I can make out the V8s are very reliable. I think, though, that the V12 can suffer from an oil cooler issue. Doesn't sound too bad until you realise that it lives between the cylinder heads which need to come off!
Lord knows how many hours that lot would take plus the oil cooler itself isn't exactly cheap.
I seem to remember that the biturbo ones don't suffer from this (or it could be the other way round
)
Anyway, its something to do some delving into.
Lord knows how many hours that lot would take plus the oil cooler itself isn't exactly cheap.
I seem to remember that the biturbo ones don't suffer from this (or it could be the other way round
)Anyway, its something to do some delving into.
There was a thread along similar lines a while ago. The conclusion was the V12 is very refined; the V8 a bit out of place in the S-Class. Personally, I could perhaps get away with a discreetly specified S600 although the basic car is not exactly elegant; but I wouldn't wish to be seen (and certainly not heard) in a S63 AMG. The AMG-brand has really come to stand for vulgarity rather than performance and Mercedes has rather wrecked it. Happily it's not a problem that is likely to trouble me anytime soon.
I wouldn't say the V8 is out of place in an S class. My experience is that the V8 is very refined and suits the S Class / CL well.
Clearly though, V12 is better. I opted for CL500 but only because my budget didn't stretch to the same condition car in the CL600 form. If you are prepared to pay the extra, initial outlay and on-going, go for the v12. Silky smooth.
Clearly though, V12 is better. I opted for CL500 but only because my budget didn't stretch to the same condition car in the CL600 form. If you are prepared to pay the extra, initial outlay and on-going, go for the v12. Silky smooth.
Equus said:
Thanks.
I came to similar conclusions as your self, so I guess what I'm wondering is: if the V8 and V12 both have similar performance, economy and running costs, why do they both exist?
Unless there are distinct differences in their raison d'etre, why did Mercedes go to the expense and trouble of developing and marketing both engines?
To partially answer your question I believe the V12s have been dropped from the current SL range suggesting that there is some rationalisation of models taking place at MB, for the sports models at least. I came to similar conclusions as your self, so I guess what I'm wondering is: if the V8 and V12 both have similar performance, economy and running costs, why do they both exist?
Unless there are distinct differences in their raison d'etre, why did Mercedes go to the expense and trouble of developing and marketing both engines?
In S class guise I reckon MB persists with the various engine options in order to cater for subtly different tastes in what is a niche segment of the luxury car market ie AMG spec engines for those seeking a luxury drivers car and the non AMG models for those seeking a more refined driving experience. Not dissimilar to the Elegance v Avantgarde options in the E class of 5-10 years ago.
Re my earlier claim that V8 and V12 models have broadly similar power (and economy) I should clarify that this applies when comparing say an AMG V8 with a non AMG V12. There would be quite obvious performance differences when comparing say the S500 and the S63 (both V8s), or the V12 powered S600 and S65.
However as someone else pointed out in S class guise these would all be quite different cars in terms of their road presence (read "noise"), ride comfort and handling.
Edited by JimmyR1 on Thursday 29th September 16:44
JimmyR1 said:
Re my earlier claim that V8 and V12 models have broadly similar power (and economy) I should clarify that this applies when comparing say an AMG V8 with a non AMG V12.
Yes, noted, thanks: it's specifically the 517bhp non-AMG V12 vs. the 525bhp AMG V8 that I'm homing in on.My focus is on comfort and refinement more than performance and handling, though I'm conscious that even the AMG S63 probably still ranks as quite refined, compared to the majority of cars. I do tend to agree with r129sl that the AMG styling is a bit on the lairy side, but it wouldn't necessarily put me off altogether, provided that refinement (and in particular, ride quality) isn't too drastically affected.
Sounds like you are after the V12 then. Understated and elegant, yet silently fast when called upon to get up and go. The sort of refined performance where you need to look at the speedo to see how fast you are going, versus the barking and snarling exhaust note of the AMG engined S class being given some.
Hi OP
Ive just gone through this exact situation
Wanted a W216 and test drove both the 63 and the 600
Prefered the looks of the AMG 63 but in the end found a 600 with the full AMG treatment
Beautiful car with a fabulous twin turbo V12
V12 is much more torquey than the NA 63 V8 - very smooth power delivery and very very quick!! The turbine like pick up from the torque of the V12 is what did it for me plus it can be remapped easily to 600bhp!
Ive just gone through this exact situation
Wanted a W216 and test drove both the 63 and the 600
Prefered the looks of the AMG 63 but in the end found a 600 with the full AMG treatment
Beautiful car with a fabulous twin turbo V12
V12 is much more torquey than the NA 63 V8 - very smooth power delivery and very very quick!! The turbine like pick up from the torque of the V12 is what did it for me plus it can be remapped easily to 600bhp!
I also have a CL600 and as already said. incredibly fast. more kit than the AMG as standard. Wolf in sheeps clothing etc.
Watch out for bills though. Mine in now 9 years old and back and forth to MB with niggles which are all expensive. i keep thinking I will sell it but when it is on song......
Watch out for bills though. Mine in now 9 years old and back and forth to MB with niggles which are all expensive. i keep thinking I will sell it but when it is on song......
Dr mojo said:
Watch out for bills though. Mine in now 9 years old and back and forth to MB with niggles which are all expensive.
What sort of niggles, and what sort of annual running costs are you experiencing, our of interest?My first experience of the S-class was not a happy one in terms of bills, but mainly down to one major issue with the engine that took a lot of diagnosis (and an eventual rebuild).
the car on top of routine servicing has had engine and gearbox mounts done/ V Belt change/ new radiator/ flat battery/ accelerometers/ radar sensor/ xenon headlamp/ Coil pack/ split vacuum pipes/3 cracked alloys (AMG) on top of consumables like brakes (pads) and tyres.
Its a big/ heavy and very fast car and our roads don't help.
Its a big/ heavy and very fast car and our roads don't help.
OK, thanks.
That doesn't sound too terrible, to be fair - a lot of the stuff (engine mounts, battery, vac pipes, coil pack) is components that I'd expect to need replacing every now and then on an older/high mileage car anyway. Guess the problem is that Mercedes parts prices make it smart a bit?
Wheels sound worrying - and another good reason to avoid the AMG!?
That doesn't sound too terrible, to be fair - a lot of the stuff (engine mounts, battery, vac pipes, coil pack) is components that I'd expect to need replacing every now and then on an older/high mileage car anyway. Guess the problem is that Mercedes parts prices make it smart a bit?
Wheels sound worrying - and another good reason to avoid the AMG!?
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