Is a 911 the only choice here?

[Herbs]

Wills2 said:

RobM77 said:

Wills2 said:

LordHaveMurci said:

RobM77 said:

It's certainly the default choice for those in your shoes, but the only issue is the somewhat inert driving experience.

Really?

No, it's a silly comment.

You may think it's silly, but it's the considered opinion of me and lots of other car people I chat to. I've not got anything against Porsche, it's just that the more recent models have become very aloof and lacking feedback. I should swiftly add that they're precise diving tools, they have superb engineering, great performance, a good choice of different models and I like the conservative but purposeful styling, but sadly I've found that they're just way too Audi-like to drive.

ETA: Your quote is somewhat selective. I was leading into my suggestion to try an Evora. Again, you may think this is 'silly', but it's a widely held opinion that the Evora is better to drive, although plays second fiddle in other areas. I was merely suggesting that the OP tried both to see which compromises he was happier with.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 29th September 19:21

No it's your just opinion (no idea who these other people are you claim to have canvassed) you're entitled to it but it doesn't make it right or representative of the car or any less silly.

The 911 is a unique sports car with it's own driving/handling characteristics that aren't shared by any other sports car.

The control weights are perfectly judged, the manual gearbox is a delight to use (one of the best especially if you have the SSK fitted), the steering has more than enough feel, the damping well judged, the howl of the Flat6 addictive, the rear traction inspires confidence as do the strong brakes, moving from a series of M3s the 997.2 felt completely different and the exact opposite of inert, it felt alive.

You might not like the experience but calling that experience inert is so wide of the mark I doubt you've spent enough time in one to form a balanced opinion.

I made no mention of the Evora suggestion (I'm sure that a great car as well) so I'm not sure why you bring that up in your reply, perhaps trying to back pedal a tad and twist some justification into your silly inert remark.

Your both correct although Rob perhaps chose the wrong word. A 911 is very good but and it's a big but, they are so competent that it can and does detract from the thrill of driving the car - one of the fastest and easiest cars I've had to drive but to feel alive whilst driving it I frequently ended up somewhat over the limit as it does it with a minimum of fuss.

[BigLion]

Unless I'm missing something, would you really put a baby into a Lotus Evora - heaven forbid you have even a low speed impact, you'll be taking fibre glass out your legs for weeks???

[Herbs]

BigLion said:

Unless I'm missing something, would you really put a baby into a Lotus Evora - heaven forbid you have even a low speed impact, you'll be taking fibre glass out your legs for weeks???

Why? They are incredibly safe as the chassis comes up the side, I'd rather be in one of them than a lot of other cars - so long as it's not going under an artic of course!

[Ali_T]

Willy Nilly said:

Don't you need a massive SUV for a baby?

I managed two babies in my RX8.

[RobM77]

Wills2 said:

RobM77 said:

Wills2 said:

LordHaveMurci said:

RobM77 said:

It's certainly the default choice for those in your shoes, but the only issue is the somewhat inert driving experience.

Really?

No, it's a silly comment.

You may think it's silly, but it's the considered opinion of me and lots of other car people I chat to. I've not got anything against Porsche, it's just that the more recent models have become very aloof and lacking feedback. I should swiftly add that they're precise diving tools, they have superb engineering, great performance, a good choice of different models and I like the conservative but purposeful styling, but sadly I've found that they're just way too Audi-like to drive.

ETA: Your quote is somewhat selective. I was leading into my suggestion to try an Evora. Again, you may think this is 'silly', but it's a widely held opinion that the Evora is better to drive, although plays second fiddle in other areas. I was merely suggesting that the OP tried both to see which compromises he was happier with.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 29th September 19:21

No it's your just opinion (no idea who these other people are you claim to have canvassed) you're entitled to it but it doesn't make it right or representative of the car or any less silly.

The 911 is a unique sports car with it's own driving/handling characteristics that aren't shared by any other sports car.

The control weights are perfectly judged, the manual gearbox is a delight to use (one of the best especially if you have the SSK fitted), the steering has more than enough feel, the damping well judged, the howl of the Flat6 addictive, the rear traction inspires confidence as do the strong brakes, moving from a series of M3s the 997.2 felt completely different and the exact opposite of inert, it felt alive.

You might not like the experience but calling that experience inert is so wide of the mark I doubt you've spent enough time in one to form a balanced opinion.

I made no mention of the Evora suggestion (I'm sure that a great car as well) so I'm not sure why you bring that up in your reply, perhaps trying to back pedal a tad and twist some justification into your silly inert remark.

Firstly, I should say that I share your views on most of the positives you've listed above. For example:

• "Control weights": Yes, they're perfect, especially the brake pedal weighting, which personally I think is the best servo assisted setup I've ever driven.

• "The manual gearbox is a delight to use". Yes, it is.

• "The damping is well judged". Yes, it is.

• "the howl of the Flat6 addictive" Yes, it is. Not only that, but it's specifically designed for the car, which can't be said about many sports car engines these days.

• "the rear traction inspires confidence" Yes, it does. It also equates to fantastic ability in motorsport.

So we agree on all of that. All I said was that the current breed of Porsches, from Boxster and Cayman up to 911, are lacking a certain feedback and involvement that personally I find is key to enjoying driving. I desperately want one, in fact I spent years saving for one, but I just can't make myself like them, sorry.

Lastly, there's how you started your post:

"No it's your just opinion"

Are you aware of just how unbelievably arrogant that is? Are you claiming some sort of omnipotent knowledge of everyone in the car world that I talk to on a regular basis, both enthusiasts and professionals? You don't even know me, let alone those conversations I have and those cars that I drive. How on earth can you make such a bizarre claim?! It's a reasonably well known thing that driver appeal lives on in the GTn Porsches, but is lacking in the more mundane models. They're otherwise so good that they're an automatic choice for many of us, as the OP very well demonstrates, but to ignore the increasing lifelessness of them is very foolish, and to display such arrogance criticising those who dare to raise the point is extremely rude. This is a discussion forum and the views I hold on this subject are not irrational or unreasonable. I merely suggested that the OP tries an Evora before he settles on the Porsche, which I openly acknowledged is the automatic choice for those with kids wanting a sports car. How mild can I be? Plenty on here would be far more brash.

ETA: On your last comment, I can assure you there's no back peddling at all, I firmly believe what I said and am happy to repeat it (as I have done above). All I was saying, as I explained, was that I made my original point as an introduction to the idea of trying an Evora, nothing more.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 29th September 23:08

[PhilboSE]

I've been putting my kids in the back of my 997.2 for the last 8 years, no problem.

I've not had a rear facing seat in there but the standard Porsche forward facing seat did the kids proud in the rear until they outgrew it.

I wouldn't say there's a huge amount of space back there behind my 6'2" non-sylph-like frame, but my 9 and (tall) 12 year old still go in the back regularly though now I wouldn't do it for journeys over 30 mins.

911 by far the most practical 2+2 sports coupe out there. Ignore comments about inert drives and having to take out the bench seats - it just works.

[nickfrog]

The main problem with a 997 is that it doesn't have as good a throttle response as a 320d.

[RobM77]

nickfrog said:

The main problem with a 997 is that it doesn't have as good a throttle response as a 320d.

I realise you're on a wind up mission, but bizarre as it may sound, that is actually true. Both the Cayman and 911 have a distinct time lag going from 0% to n% throttle opening that is not present in a diesel engine. It's simply the way modern engines work. Yes, of course every other parameter about the 997 flat six in terms of driving enjoyment is in a different league to a diesel family car, but if you're specifically talking throttle response: yes, of course, that's obvious from driving both cars back to back (as I have done on a number of occasions). The same problem blights the Evora that I mentioned and most petrol engined EU compliant cars. You either suck it up and forget about it, or give up finding a modern sports car that you enjoy driving.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 30th September 00:06

[PhilboSE]

RobM77 said:

I realise you're on a wind up mission, but bizarre as it may sound, that is actually true. Both the Cayman and 911 have a distinct time lag going from 0% to n% throttle opening that is not present in a diesel engine. It's simply the way modern engines work. Yes, of course every other parameter about the 997 flat six int terms of driving enjoyment is in a different league to a diesel family car, but if you're specifically talking throttle response: yes, of course, that's obvious from driving both cars back to back (as I have done on a number of occasions).

???

You just can't say that without at least qualifying the conditions for the test. I can't understand if you're making the comparison between ALL diesel vs petrol cars, or specifically the 320d vs a 997. If the latter, you need to specify if you mean the 997.1 NA engine or the 997.2 turbocharged one. I'm actually struggling to make sense of the statement at all - and I regularly drive a range of diesel and petrol and bike-engined cars.

[SidewaysSi]

I don't see the problem here. Rob is merely saying the 997 is less communicative than the Evora which is pretty much fact.

GT Porsches are good. The normal stuff less so if you seek a thrilling, involving drive.

Of course a Porsche is better in that respect than an Audi or VW. But they are no Lotus.

[RobM77]

PhilboSE said:

RobM77 said:

I realise you're on a wind up mission, but bizarre as it may sound, that is actually true. Both the Cayman and 911 have a distinct time lag going from 0% to n% throttle opening that is not present in a diesel engine. It's simply the way modern engines work. Yes, of course every other parameter about the 997 flat six int terms of driving enjoyment is in a different league to a diesel family car, but if you're specifically talking throttle response: yes, of course, that's obvious from driving both cars back to back (as I have done on a number of occasions).

???

You just can't say that without at least qualifying the conditions for the test. I can't understand if you're making the comparison between ALL diesel vs petrol cars, or specifically the 320d vs a 997. If the latter, you need to specify if you mean the 997.1 NA engine or the 997.2 turbocharged one. I'm actually struggling to make sense of the statement at all - and I regularly drive a range of diesel and petrol and bike-engined cars.

Sorry, I was trying to be brief to avoid a huge discussion derailing the thread (which happens frequently when discussing this topic). Turbo lag comes in much higher up the rev range and under very different circumstances that are more time and circumstance dependent; in contrast, this is a simple electronic delay that's always there. In answer to your question, the conditions for this test could be any speed in a responsive gear, so let's say 25mph in 2nd, which is what I do in any car I test drive as a standard test. If you go from 0% throttle to 10% throttle at this speed, which in terms of a sports car like the 911 simulates the moment where you come off the brake and onto the throttle in the initial to mid phases of a bend (where exactly will depend on your technique, and I've no wish to start a huge debate on trail braking on the public road, because it's irrelevant - that's something else that often happens on PH!), then the n/a 997 gen 1 and Cayman (to be specific, but I'm sure this applies to other cars in the range) will show a distinct hesitation where nothing at all happens, before obeying your throttle command by ramping up to the torque value you've requested. An older Porsche with a cable throttle will obviously just open the throttle on the engine immediately and you'll get instant response, because the throttle pedal is tied to the engine throttle. My E90 320d will respond instantly too in this situation, as will other diesels I've driven, which given they're DBW too, I presume is simply the different way the engine throttling works and how this relates to emissions regs. This is not a Porsche criticism per se, it applies to most petrol cars with drive by wire throttles.

I should state that this is off topic, and not what I was referring to earlier.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 30th September 01:14

[RobM77]

SidewaysSi said:

I don't see the problem here. Rob is merely saying the 997 is less communicative than the Evora which is pretty much fact.

GT Porsches are good. The normal stuff less so if you seek a thrilling, involving drive.

Of course a Porsche is better in that respect than an Audi or VW. But they are no Lotus.

[Lagerlout]

Quite seriously I'd look at the granturismo. It has a proper boot which you'll need and it has proper rear seats six footers fit in. It sounds fantastic miles better than a mk 2 997 which sounds a lot worse than the mk 1 pre dfi unit. The engine is not made out of chocolate and you get to check out super hot babes at the local Ferrari dealer the next time it needs a service.

Apart from that what about an M3 CSL? Way more fun than any 911 and again is practical and sounds great.

I've owned a few 911s and they've all bored the crap out of me in the end. Cough..

[LordHaveMurci]

Lagerlout said:

I've owned a few 911s and they've all bored the crap out of me in the end. Cough..

Why did you keep buying them then?!

[stuno1]

Does the shape of the rear seats in a xkr allow for a babyvseat. They have a very odd shape? Is there more room than a 997 in the back? I never tested one but they looked similar in terms of rear leg room.

[braddo]

RobM77 said:

... Both the Cayman and 911 have a distinct time lag going from 0% to n% throttle opening ... It's simply the way modern engines work... The same problem blights the Evora that I mentioned and most petrol engined EU compliant cars. You either suck it up and forget about it, or give up finding a modern sports car that you enjoy driving.

I find it very noticeable in my 997 GT3 too - wanting to do a small blip of the throttle when changing down gear, there is the effect of some initial dead travel in the throttle pedal which I find annoying. Basically, a small stab of the throttle pedal does nothing, whereas an identical stab on 2 of my previous cars gave an instant and proportionate response (old Alfa on twin Dellortos and an Elise).

[Schermerhorn]

BMW M6 4.4 V8 Twin Turbo. Ridiculous quick.

[hoegaardenruls]

The only other car that springs to mind for me would be the new Mustang, but that obviously doesn't fit in badge-wise with what has been mentioned - but again proper boot.

With a 997 hat back on, the amount of stuff you can get into one always surprises me at holiday time, although the rear parcel shelf might be a lot less usable with a child seat in place, especially rear-facing - a slight change to the C2 might be a Targa, as the hatch would allow better access.

[oilspill]

Willy Nilly said:

Don't you need a massive SUV for a baby?

Not if it's a trophy child. Shove in anything then let it look after itself (which you'll defiantly have to do if you're strapped into bucket seats)

Unlike most people here, I've have respect for parents who buy MPVs SUVs with family planning in mind, even if they don't end up with the 2nd or 3rd child. You'll be surprised how much st you need to carry around with kids on day trips or longer if you want to give them a half-decent quality of life and make your own less tiring, make journeys reasonably pleasurable. . This is the UK though, where there seems to be a stigma attached to any car enthusiast buying a vehicle marketed at families. I think the term 'sp*zmobile' has been used here before.

Forget flashy SUVs, the more spacious bigger MPVS with removable seats and benches (often not much bigger wheelbase) VW Transporters, Opel Vivaro type vehicles are incredibly popular with mobile families on mainland Europe.

[Lagerlout]

LordHaveMurci said:

Lagerlout said:

I've owned a few 911s and they've all bored the crap out of me in the end. Cough..

Why did you keep buying them then?!

Stupidity I guess.

Honestly could never get a relationship going with any of them. Can't really say why. Some people get and love them just not me. I'm probably quite rare as I prefer the newest ones.