Is there such a thing as a desirable diesel?

[DonkeyApple]

Steve Campbell said:

Alpina D3 Biturbo Touring..............

But they do petrol cars that are just better.

[austinsmirk]

perhaps if the definition of a classic is its age, then diesels are perhaps just are not quite old enough, or really there were not enough in production, say 70's onwards- baring perhaps Pugs and Mercedes to have left enough in the marketplace?

Give it chance, they'll drip through. Obvious ones are VW T25's vans/campers and arguably the T4's from 1991.

There's perhaps little logic to the classic market too: eg look at 70's and now 80's Fords. Now I remember them as new cars and they were dire. Badly built and slow.

But yet, much love for them and a rapidly increasing value. why you'd want to drive around in a 1600 Mk 1 escort, lord only knows.

Look at the Porsche market- from a manufacturer that now builds a new "911" (I'm not debating model numbers here !) engine every 50 odd seconds- yet crackers values, whichever way you look at it, they're a common car- except to the weird collector market.

I see no reason in time, people won't love and collect a car with a diesel engine, love them and enjoy them.

[RobM77]

DonkeyApple said:

Steve Campbell said:

Alpina D3 Biturbo Touring..............

But they do petrol cars that are just better.

True, but they'll always be something better and that doesn't make that car undesirable to some. It's like saying that the 135i isn't desirable because the 1M is more desirable, or the 1M isn't desirable because a 996 GT3 is more desirable.

[RobM77]

The thing is you'll always get people who prefer one or the other, purely because they're different. There are far too many people willing to make absolutist statements and try and simplify the world into black and white, but it doesn't work like that - most things are a Gaussian and you'll always get some people at the extremes.

[Pan Pan Pan]

gizlaroc said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Ares said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Ares said:

gizlaroc said:

There is only one reason to buy diesel, that is to save money.

You can argue all you like, but that is why diesels are offered.

You can argue all you like, but you are still still wrong.

gizlaroc said:

Don't care what people say, we all buy diesels to save money.

Still wrong.

The poor people are those who can only afford one car, which has to be a jack of all trades car. Meanwhile those who can select a vehicle type which best suits a specific type of journey they want to make, do so, hence the use of diesels by some

Yeah....expect I've done the 2 (and 3) car thing, and it doesn't work.

For 95% of the time you end up with st car to run about in. Then for the 5%, you have an amazing fun car.

I ran a Bike-Engined Caterham. It was amazing. I raced it, tracked it and took it out for the hell of it. It did 5,000 miles in 4 years. Meanwhile, but heavily compromised cars did over 100,000 miles. I changed it for a car that was nice to be in all the time.

I have to make quite a number of heavy load journeys into Europe each year and have done so in both petrol and diesel cars, with the petrol car being a big capacity V8, and the diesel a turbocharged 2 litre four, and the petrol car was a complete pain in the butt,


Having five adults and their luggage aboard nearly completely f*cked the performance and handling of the car, and I had to stop at almost every other service station and queue for fuel in often rammed service stations, because with the car full, the acceleration, cornering and fuel consumption was badly affected.

Given that we have things called speed limits on motorways, trips in the diesel were hardly any longer than when in the petrol car, and given that I could cruise at the motorway limit with the engine barely above idling rpm, going past service station after, service station without having to stop for fuel, I have made several thousand mile trips into Europe without having to stop once for fuel. Show me a petrol car that can do that.

So we really aren't comparing apples with apples again are we?

We are comparing a large V8 NA petrol with a turbo'd 4 pot derv.


I did Norwich, to Milan, then Milan to St. Tropez, St. Tropez to Poitiers, back to Norwich, It was around 2500 miles and I did it in a V8 S4. It was horrible, 21 mpg average, stopping to fill up every 250 miles, so every 3 hours. Nightmare.


I did the same trip the following year in the 335i an it was a complete joy, we averaged 37mpg and at 80mph it was cruising at just under 2000rpm, which in a petrol means complete silence.

It was also great in the 535d, but the 335i is just like a more refined version of the diesel, a little bit nicer all round.

And that is one thing that I still can't get over in my 2012 E350 petrol estate, at 80mph there is no diesel drone. I didn't even realise it was there when I had the E350cdi, but get into the petrol and you can't underestimate just how much more relaxing it is.



Ares, what diesel is it you chose?

At 80 mph in the diesel the only noise is wind noise, as the engine is turning over only a little over idling rpm. The noise would be the same whether the car had a diesel, or a petrol engine. When people call diesel smelly, noisy, I have to wonder what type of diesel vehicle they have had experience with, or whether they are doing something wrong in the way they filled them up, or use them, as I have had no such experiences. My diesel cars have been no smellier, or noisier than my petrol cars. Of course when filling up it is possible to smell what fuel is going into the tank, but this applies equally to both the petrol and diesels.

[Pan Pan Pan]

DonkeyApple said:

Steve Campbell said:

Alpina D3 Biturbo Touring..............

But they do petrol cars that are just better.

Better for what?

[Shakermaker]

The massive GMC truck I mentioned earlier might be something of an exception but I think I can sum up my feelings rather better now.

If I buy a new car, for many many reasons which relate to cost and the number of miles I do, then the diesel option is going to be the one that makes the most financial sense

But I am never going to lie awake a night thinking about "ooh I must get myself a diesel 3 series" - I'm always going to go "I wish I had the M3"

[Fastdruid]

Pan Pan Pan said:

At 80 mph in the diesel the only noise is wind noise, as the engine is turning over only a little over idling rpm. The noise would be the same whether the car had a diesel, or a petrol engine. When people call diesel smelly, noisy, I have to wonder what type of diesel vehicle they have had experience with, or whether they are doing something wrong in the way they filled them up, or use them, as I have had no such experiences. My diesel cars have been no smellier, or noisier than my petrol cars. Of course when filling up it is possible to smell what fuel is going into the tank, but this applies equally to both the petrol and diesels.

Every diesel that goes by when walking is noticeable, petrol hardly smells of roses but doesn't stink in the same way except on cold enrichment when it is equally stinky to be fair (and the advances in modern cars and Fuel Injection is obvious when a classic goes by). The absolute worst from a fully working car was in a hire car on a hot day and started the car to get the air con working with the windows open to let the trapped heat out. The wind was in the wrong position and it just *stunk* the car out. It's why I can't imagine how nasty a convertible diesel would be. Having that stench waft over you if the wind is at all from behind.

Then there are the obviously broken diesel cars/vans that require recirc if you're following them as they stink so badly. Now this might be the greater numbers of diesels recently but I've not experienced being behind broken petrol cars to the extent they are noticeable. Although a few are admittedly a bit eggy.

As for the noise, the amount of sound deadening to bring a diesel NVH down to the level of a petrol is massive. It's quite impressive really how much they have managed to block out the sound but 98% of them still sound like a transit when idling and are unpleasant if revved.

[gizlaroc]

Pan Pan Pan said:

At 80 mph in the diesel the only noise is wind noise, as the engine is turning over only a little over idling rpm. The noise would be the same whether the car had a diesel, or a petrol engine.

Sorry, that simply isn't true.
I said exactly the same as you a few years back.

But I think you get used to the sound of the diesel, you don't realise there is a drone going on until you get in a decent petrol six or eight cylinder and it is gone.

I think Harry Metcalfe mentioned this in his recent XJR review, he said as good as the JLR SDV6 and TDV8 diesels are, and they are good, it is not until you get back in a petrol car and start cruising you realise just how noisy even the best diesels can be.

Pan Pan Pan said:

When people call diesel smelly, noisy, I have to wonder what type of diesel vehicle they have had experience with, or whether they are doing something wrong in the way they filled them up, or use them, as I have had no such experiences.

My diesel cars have been no smellier, or noisier than my petrol cars.

Of course when filling up it is possible to smell what fuel is going into the tank, but this applies equally to both the petrol and diesels.

Totally agree, I don't see the issue with smell.
Well not when driving or filling up anyway, certainly walking through the West End I notice, but that would never stop me from buying one.

[gizlaroc]

Pan Pan Pan said:

DonkeyApple said:

Steve Campbell said:

Alpina D3 Biturbo Touring..............

But they do petrol cars that are just better.

Better for what?

Refinement, rev range, power, speed.

The thing with a diesel is it is a bit of a one trick pony, you get all that torque from 1500rpm through to around 4500rpm, it is great fun to start with as it is like an on/off switch, you press the gas and bang, you are shoved down the road. It is great.

The petrol can either be very refined when pootling around if NA, you can cruise between 1000 and 3000rpm and it is as smooth as butter, virtually silent and feel incredibly luxurious. But take it to 3500rpm and you have a completely different car, it now feels like the diesel with the power getting stronger and stronger as you go through the revs, the sound is glorious and you just keep going and going all the way up to 7-8000rpm and when you change gear you are still at 4000rpm and it starts over again. Then when you want relaxed again you go back to changing at 3000rpm and silence is golden once more.

With a forced induction petrol it is more like the diesel, just that you tend to have more rev range and a better sound track.

The downsides of the petrols is they don't tend to be quite as economical, only you can decide if it is worth it.

When it used to be 330i vs 330d, I could sort of understand why someone may say they bought the diesel over the petrol, if you are the sort of person who doesn't like to rev a car out, or just wants an effortless overtake without having to change down or knock it into sport then I guess it made sense to go diesel.
However, now most of the petrols are turbo'd I really don't understand why anyone would buy the diesel over the petrol other than for financial reasons, the petrol does everything the diesel does but with a nicer soundtrack and the option to rev it 50% more than the diesel version.

If it came down to me buying a D3 Touring or a B3 Touring with my money I would go D3, but if it was a free car with Alpina paying the fuel bill, the diesel wou;dn't even be considered.

[WinstonWolf]

Ahbefive said:

WinstonWolf said:

Ahbefive said:

WinstonWolf said:

So it would seem. I tried the S8 first but for a daily driver I preferred the lazy A.

It's got a "comfort" setting on the suspension FFS

Did the S8 have a turbo? Comfort setting has nothing to do with the diesel engine.

I prefer the power delivery of the diesel. Not everyone will but some of us do.

I only got drawn in when someone said everyone bought diesels to save money. Running costs didn't feature in my decision making process...

I suspect that you actually prefer the power delivery of a turbocharged engine vs a N/a one rather than a diesel over petrol. Unless somehow you prefer a turbodiesel over a turbo petrol in which case I'd love to know why.

I suspect I know what I like better than you do.

I preferred the power delivery of my 888 Ducati over my Fireblade, I like low down grunt rather than power at the top end. Oh, and we've also got a turbo petrol before you try and point out that you know what I like more than I do

[cerb4.5lee]

gizlaroc said:

Refinement, rev range, power, speed.

The thing with a diesel is it is a bit of a one trick pony, you get all that torque from 1500rpm through to around 4500rpm, it is great fun to start with as it is like an on/off switch, you press the gas and bang, you are shoved down the road. It is great.

The petrol can either be very refined when pootling around if NA, you can cruise between 1000 and 3000rpm and it is as smooth as butter, virtually silent and feel incredibly luxurious. But take it to 3500rpm and you have a completely different car, it now feels like the diesel with the power getting stronger and stronger as you go through the revs, the sound is glorious and you just keep going and going all the way up to 7-8000rpm and when you change gear you are still at 4000rpm and it starts over again. Then when you want relaxed again you go back to changing at 3000rpm and silence is golden once more.

With a forced induction petrol it is more like the diesel, just that you tend to have more rev range and a better sound track.

The downsides of the petrols is they don't tend to be quite as economical, only you can decide if it is worth it.

When it used to be 330i vs 330d, I could sort of understand why someone may say they bought the diesel over the petrol, if you are the sort of person who doesn't like to rev a car out, or just wants an effortless overtake without having to change down or knock it into sport then I guess it made sense to go diesel.
However, now most of the petrols are turbo'd I really don't understand why anyone would buy the diesel over the petrol other than for financial reasons, the petrol does everything the diesel does but with a nicer soundtrack and the option to rev it 50% more than the diesel version.

If it came down to me buying a D3 Touring or a B3 Touring with my money I would go D3, but if it was a free car with Alpina paying the fuel bill, the diesel wou;dn't even be considered.

Good post.

[Ares]

gizlaroc said:

Ares, what diesel is it you chose?

640d GC (then got it 'breathed on' by Schnitzer)

[Ares]

Fastdruid said:

Every diesel that goes by when walking is noticeable, petrol hardly smells of roses but doesn't stink in the same way except on cold enrichment when it is equally stinky to be fair (and the advances in modern cars and Fuel Injection is obvious when a classic goes by). The absolute worst from a fully working car was in a hire car on a hot day and started the car to get the air con working with the windows open to let the trapped heat out. The wind was in the wrong position and it just *stunk* the car out. It's why I can't imagine how nasty a convertible diesel would be. Having that stench waft over you if the wind is at all from behind.

Then there are the obviously broken diesel cars/vans that require recirc if you're following them as they stink so badly. Now this might be the greater numbers of diesels recently but I've not experienced being behind broken petrol cars to the extent they are noticeable. Although a few are admittedly a bit eggy.

As for the noise, the amount of sound deadening to bring a diesel NVH down to the level of a petrol is massive. It's quite impressive really how much they have managed to block out the sound but 98% of them still sound like a transit when idling and are unpleasant if revved.

That's just not true. My car (as most 6 cylinders) are silent except on initial start up. It also doesn't smell. I start both mine and Mrs Ares' MINI Cooper up on a cold morning. Hers smells more than mine.

4-pot diesels are always going to be noisier, but driving past you at 30mph, unless at an unnaturally high engine rev, will be near silent.

As for internals, the sound deadening in mine compared to the 640i is identical. With the exception of full throttle, both engines are near silent. Mine never sounds like a transit.

[Ares]

gizlaroc said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

At 80 mph in the diesel the only noise is wind noise, as the engine is turning over only a little over idling rpm. The noise would be the same whether the car had a diesel, or a petrol engine.

Sorry, that simply isn't true.
I said exactly the same as you a few years back.

But I think you get used to the sound of the diesel, you don't realise there is a drone going on until you get in a decent petrol six or eight cylinder and it is gone.

I think Harry Metcalfe mentioned this in his recent XJR review, he said as good as the JLR SDV6 and TDV8 diesels are, and they are good, it is not until you get back in a petrol car and start cruising you realise just how noisy even the best diesels can be.

It is true. Take a constant speed, you simply cannot hear the engine in a half decent car. Even at tickover, mine will be so silent that I'll often press the start button thinking it's turned off, only to then actually turn it off. I drove the d and the i back to back when I got mine. Except on near full throttle, you cannot hear either engine.

[Ares]

gizlaroc said:

The thing with a diesel is it is a bit of a one trick pony, you get all that torque from 1500rpm through to around 4500rpm, it is great fun to start with as it is like an on/off switch, you press the gas and bang, you are shoved down the road. It is great.

The notion on/off is now such a misnomer though. Peak power may well be 1500-4500...but the 8sp ZF box can shifts every 5/600rpm so not only are you effortlessly always in absolute peak power, the shifts are imperceptible in the diesel. The petrol is more noticeable and is the worse for it. The ZF box works infinitely better with the 640d than with the 640i.

[Ares]

gizlaroc said:

When it used to be 330i vs 330d, I could sort of understand why someone may say they bought the diesel over the petrol, if you are the sort of person who doesn't like to rev a car out, or just wants an effortless overtake without having to change down or knock it into sport then I guess it made sense to go diesel.
However, now most of the petrols are turbo'd I really don't understand why anyone would buy the diesel over the petrol other than for financial reasons, the petrol does everything the diesel does but with a nicer soundtrack and the option to rev it 50% more than the diesel version.

But with modern high-performance diesels against their petrol counterpart, the is no real difference, other than the autobox has to be rev'd to get the same pace in the petrol....and you usually have to put it into sport. The diesel, when mated to a ZF box, will just surge past any car without any drama.

The only reason to favour the petrol in that circumstance is if you want to work harder for the same outcome. For some, that will be reason enough.

[cerb4.5lee]

Ares said:

Even at tickover, mine will be so silent that I'll often press the start button thinking it's turned off, only to then actually turn it off.

You must be hard of hearing buddy! a 640d isn't that quiet on tickover that you'd think it wasn't running.

Maybe there's much more sound deadening on the GC compared to the Coupe and perhaps that's the difference then.

[Ares]

cerb4.5lee said:

Ares said:

Even at tickover, mine will be so silent that I'll often press the start button thinking it's turned off, only to then actually turn it off.

You must be hard of hearing buddy! a 640d isn't that quiet on tickover that you'd think it wasn't running.

Maybe there's much more sound deadening on the GC compared to the Coupe and perhaps that's the difference then.

You're forgetting mine has the BMW engine. Yours has those two 1950s Lada units welded together

[cerb4.5lee]

Ares said:

gizlaroc said:

When it used to be 330i vs 330d, I could sort of understand why someone may say they bought the diesel over the petrol, if you are the sort of person who doesn't like to rev a car out, or just wants an effortless overtake without having to change down or knock it into sport then I guess it made sense to go diesel.
However, now most of the petrols are turbo'd I really don't understand why anyone would buy the diesel over the petrol other than for financial reasons, the petrol does everything the diesel does but with a nicer soundtrack and the option to rev it 50% more than the diesel version.

But with modern high-performance diesels against their petrol counterpart, the is no real difference, other than the autobox has to be rev'd to get the same pace in the petrol....and you usually have to put it into sport. The diesel, when mated to a ZF box, will just surge past any car without any drama.

The only reason to favour the petrol in that circumstance is if you want to work harder for the same outcome. For some, that will be reason enough.

Had both and the 330d makes the 330i feel gutless, so I can see why most would choose the 330d over the 330i as a daily to be fair.