Is there such a thing as a desirable diesel?
Discussion
Ares said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
Even at tickover, mine will be so silent that I'll often press the start button thinking it's turned off, only to then actually turn it off.
You must be hard of hearing buddy! 
a 640d isn't that quiet on tickover that you'd think it wasn't running.Maybe there's much more sound deadening on the GC compared to the Coupe and perhaps that's the difference then.
Pit Pony said:
Saabaholic said:
Like some on here i have to drive for a living. Approx 700 miles per week.
Are you a taxi driver ? Used to go through tyres like mad and that was a pain because the run flats are a complete rip off!
Nanook said:
Fastdruid said:
Nanook said:
Pit Pony said:
If petrol cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive V8's with at least 5 litres. The only reason for the technology on diesels is to try to make a boat engine, half decent.
And if diesel cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive diesel engined cars.DonkeyApple said:
Nanook said:
Pit Pony said:
If petrol cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive V8's with at least 5 litres. The only reason for the technology on diesels is to try to make a boat engine, half decent.
And if diesel cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive diesel engined cars.If big displacement petrol engines weren't so good then the industry wouldn't be spending billions trying to make tax incentives 4 pots and diesels sound and act like them. They are the beef flavoured vegetarian sausage of the automotive world. Risible.
But sadly, as we've seen with diesel and other taxation efforts the will of the people will always follow where the tax man leads them.
People in this thread are stating the prefer diesel. You're telling them they're wrong, and if petrol was 20p/litre, we'd all be using it. Yet when we state the exact opposite, you disagree!
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Steve Campbell said:
Alpina D3 Biturbo Touring..............
But they do petrol cars that are just better. Of course there will be some people who genuinely prefer the sound and feel of a Diesel engine and there will be some who have a genuine phobia of petrol stations but diesels only began to sell in numbers in the U.K. when the Govt changed taxation to get people to buy them.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 18th October 22:34
Ares said:
It is true. Take a constant speed, you simply cannot hear the engine in a half decent car. Even at tickover, mine will be so silent that I'll often press the start button thinking it's turned off, only to then actually turn it off. I drove the d and the i back to back when I got mine. Except on near full throttle, you cannot hear either engine.
The notion on/off is now such a misnomer though. Peak power may well be 1500-4500...but the 8sp ZF box can shifts every 5/600rpm so not only are you effortlessly always in absolute peak power, the shifts are imperceptible in the diesel. The petrol is more noticeable and is the worse for it. The ZF box works infinitely better with the 640d than with the 640i.
But with modern high-performance diesels against their petrol counterpart, the is no real difference, other than the autobox has to be rev'd to get the same pace in the petrol....and you usually have to put it into sport. The diesel, when mated to a ZF box, will just surge past any car without any drama.
The only reason to favour the petrol in that circumstance is if you want to work harder for the same outcome. For some, that will be reason enough.
We shall have to agree to disagree. The notion on/off is now such a misnomer though. Peak power may well be 1500-4500...but the 8sp ZF box can shifts every 5/600rpm so not only are you effortlessly always in absolute peak power, the shifts are imperceptible in the diesel. The petrol is more noticeable and is the worse for it. The ZF box works infinitely better with the 640d than with the 640i.
But with modern high-performance diesels against their petrol counterpart, the is no real difference, other than the autobox has to be rev'd to get the same pace in the petrol....and you usually have to put it into sport. The diesel, when mated to a ZF box, will just surge past any car without any drama.
The only reason to favour the petrol in that circumstance is if you want to work harder for the same outcome. For some, that will be reason enough.
It is not the noise as such, but the drone and the the fact you can feel it through the car. But I agree, within a few days you brain sort of shuts it out.
The on/off switch is means that with the derv you have pretty much the same amount of shove no matter what gear and what revs you are in, that is what I meant, the ZF 8 Speed 'box just magnifies this even more in the derv.
The petrol is pretty much the same, and that was always my issues with the 335i, and with the 6 speed ZF 'box, it was the bit that made the car a bit dull. You had to put it in manual mode to get some sense of you were actually doing something.
I honestly found in that respect the petrol and diesel were pretty much the same, it was only the refinement, rev range and noise that made the petrol better for me.
But ultimately, as you can read from my posts in years gone by, I got rid of the 335i in the end because it felt too much like a diesel, it was too much of a motorway mile muncher, so I swapped it for another M3.
So you're probably right, if you want a motorway car, buy the 640d and enjoy the £5-10 you save each week at the pumps.
cerb4.5lee said:
Had both and the 330d makes the 330i feel gutless, so I can see why most would choose the 330d over the 330i as a daily to be fair.
I loved mine! I loved the fact you had to work it, come out of a corner and get the gearing wrong and you had no power, get it right and you had a big smile.
But then I love lost of small NA petrol cars, my daughters Fiesta was a hoot on back roads. I do think some of the modern cars are just too fast and too effortless, it sort of takes the fun out of it all.
DonkeyApple said:
Nanook said:
Pit Pony said:
If petrol cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive V8's with at least 5 litres. The only reason for the technology on diesels is to try to make a boat engine, half decent.
And if diesel cost 20p a gallon, we'd all drive diesel engined cars.If big displacement petrol engines weren't so good then the industry wouldn't be spending billions trying to make tax incentives 4 pots and diesels sound and act like them. They are the beef flavoured vegetarian sausage of the automotive world. Risible.
But sadly, as we've seen with diesel and other taxation efforts the will of the people will always follow where the tax man leads them.
cerb4.5lee said:
Pit Pony said:
Saabaholic said:
Like some on here i have to drive for a living. Approx 700 miles per week.
Are you a taxi driver ? Used to go through tyres like mad and that was a pain because the run flats are a complete rip off!
I simply couldnt justify that in a petrol, they get like 22mpg cruising compared to 30-33 I was getting while the diesel being better suited for towing in my eyes.
Max_Torque said:
Wills2 said:
heebeegeetee said:
Wills2 said:
As I said Lee on paper stats, the way it does those things are utterly uninspiring (in my opinion of course, others may hold differing views, your mileage my vary etc....)
I like those BMWs. The 335d estate car will do 0-100 in a bloody short time and cad do a long range on fuel. Petrol cars can't do this and never could. Petrol cars haven't really changed the motoring landscape at all but diesels have imo.There are virtually no short-comings to the 330d/335d as far as I am concerned apart from initial cost, but that's just my opinion. There are no/few tangible differences between the pet and derv models except that you will stop for fuel more often with the petrol, and that's it.
But ETTO!
Wills2 said:
Ares said:
640d GC (then got it 'breathed on' by Schnitzer)
Try a petrol engine they've "breathed" on as you put it, much better....Not tried a 640i Schnitzer, but I tried a 435i with the Schnitzer engine kit. I agreed with Schnitzer, the diesel was the better power unit in the 6. So much so that they don't really do any petrol tuned cars this side of the M-Range.
Mr Tidy said:
No never!
Had a 123d for over 6 years (201bhp) but my current daily is a 325ti Compact with 192 bhp and it is so much better to drive in every way (albeit fuel economy may be a bit less impressive) but that is a price I am more than happy to pay!
I went the other way i.e. 325ti -> 335d. Whilst they're not really comparable cars, and the 335d was "superior" in so many ways, it's only the former that I still miss to this dayHad a 123d for over 6 years (201bhp) but my current daily is a 325ti Compact with 192 bhp and it is so much better to drive in every way (albeit fuel economy may be a bit less impressive) but that is a price I am more than happy to pay!
Wills2 said:
Max_Torque said:
Wills2 said:
heebeegeetee said:
Wills2 said:
As I said Lee on paper stats, the way it does those things are utterly uninspiring (in my opinion of course, others may hold differing views, your mileage my vary etc....)
I like those BMWs. The 335d estate car will do 0-100 in a bloody short time and cad do a long range on fuel. Petrol cars can't do this and never could. Petrol cars haven't really changed the motoring landscape at all but diesels have imo.There are virtually no short-comings to the 330d/335d as far as I am concerned apart from initial cost, but that's just my opinion. There are no/few tangible differences between the pet and derv models except that you will stop for fuel more often with the petrol, and that's it.
But ETTO!
1) I found it utterly boring, mundane.
Yes, it's a mass produced medium sized diesel estate car. Optimised to do lots of utterly boring, mundane road driving, which it does very well indeed.
2) not that economical
Sounds like the driver blaming his tools (or confusing efficiency with economy) If you drive carefully, it'll do well over 40mpg without too much problem. if you use the performance, then no, it won't, but it WILL be better than any equivalent gasoline engined car (due to the high expansion ratio and ability for lean-on-cruise operation)
3) or that quick over 60mph
It's got just under 300bhp, in 1700kg, for something like 170bhp/tonne. Clearly, that's not a supercar power to weight ratio now is it. It's got what i would call a "decent" level of performance these days, more than enough for general road driving, but no, it isn't going to win any Vmax events or 1/4mile runs.
4)coupled with a floaty/wallowy suspension
In terms of both primary and secondary ride i think the handling is well judged. It's a big, heavy, comfortable road car, not an elise. If you wanted to ruin it by putting track hard suspension on it, plenty of aftermarket kits are availible to do just that for not much money, or just ask your local dealer to leave the spring packers in after the pdi.......
5) numb brakes
Numb compared to what? Sure, they aren't Caterham sharp, or able to stop you from 200mph like a 400mm pair of carbon ceramics but once again, it's a diesel estate car. In terms of pedal weights and linearity to longitudinal decceleration actually the braking loads are i think well optimised for the intended market point
6) undesirable but quite expensive car.
You think it's undesirable because it's not a sports car. Well, other people might not want there medium sized family estate cars to actually BE sports cars! And expensive, so what? Every high end model is expensive these days, i'd say for the performance and level of fit/finish and feature content it's not THAT expensive. You could by buy a Caterham for the same money which doesn't even come with side windows, let alone electric ones! (OR ABS, OR Infortainment, OR 5 seats and a large boot, OR 20kmile service intervals OR the ability to do 500miles on a tank, OR a 5star NCAP rating, or Cruise control, OR an automative transmission OR.......OR.....OR) So "Value for money" is totally subjective.
What people seem to miss is that cars need to be compared to similar cars. Nobody (well possibly Guy Martin ;-) complains they can't fit their step ladders in the fezza 458, because that would be silly. And it's equally silly to compare a 335d to anything but similar sized, mass produced passenger cars, and when you do this, i'm going to suggest it comes on very well indeed. (ie compare to say a XF, an A4, a C Class, or what have you)
Ahbefive said:
And you chose it over a 535i because?????
Ever tried buying a used 535i? It's ridiculous.Ahbefive said:
.........fuel economy
But obviously, yes, eventually it came down to money didn't it like every other choice we make - if it wasn't for money I could have factory ordered a 535i.But that doesn't mean I didn't also desire the diesel and it doesn't mean I now don't thoroughly enjoy owning it and enjoy what it can do for me. The fuel economy makes the man maths of justifying ridiculous road trips to the middle of nowhere very easy - just got back from 2300 miles around Scotland because hey, why not?
In a world of easily available used 535i's and fuel that wasn't £1.10 a litre there is simply no way I'd have considered the diesel. But we don't live in such a world, only our friends the other side of the Atlantic do.
The question begs another question- how important is the noise an engine makes to you ? If the answer is 'very' then don't buy a diesel. If it isn't , then think about it . Unless the raison d'etre of your car is pure driving pleasure and /or extreme performance - as it would be with a Lotus, a Ferrari or Porsche - then I really can't see too many compelling reasons why most people would actually choose a petrol car . Diesels are quick enough for any normal driving, they don't make any more noise than anything else once above walking pace and do a lot more mpg.
And let's not pretend all petrol engines sound like thoroughbreds - most folk seem to like BMW straight sixes and few can resist the sound of a peachy V8- but the typical 1.6 - 2 litre 16 valve 4 fitted to most cars that sell by the million is anodyne and forgettable .
And let's not pretend all petrol engines sound like thoroughbreds - most folk seem to like BMW straight sixes and few can resist the sound of a peachy V8- but the typical 1.6 - 2 litre 16 valve 4 fitted to most cars that sell by the million is anodyne and forgettable .
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