Is there such a thing as a desirable diesel?
Discussion
I've never understood the "if fuel was 3pence a gallon and no one gave a sh*t about the environment then you'd drive a petrol" argument, because in that case, i'd be a millionaire married to a supermodel and i'd soddin well go everywhere in my helicopter, private jet or £3M yacht.
reality is just that, reality........
reality is just that, reality........
Max_Torque said:
I think the 335d can survive without me defending it hey, Lets look at the claims:
1) I found it utterly boring, mundane.
Yes, it's a mass produced medium sized diesel estate car. Optimised to do lots of utterly boring, mundane road driving, which it does very well indeed.
2) not that economical
Sounds like the driver blaming his tools (or confusing efficiency with economy) If you drive carefully, it'll do well over 40mpg without too much problem. if you use the performance, then no, it won't, but it WILL be better than any equivalent gasoline engined car (due to the high expansion ratio and ability for lean-on-cruise operation)
3) or that quick over 60mph
It's got just under 300bhp, in 1700kg, for something like 170bhp/tonne. Clearly, that's not a supercar power to weight ratio now is it. It's got what i would call a "decent" level of performance these days, more than enough for general road driving, but no, it isn't going to win any Vmax events or 1/4mile runs.
4)coupled with a floaty/wallowy suspension
In terms of both primary and secondary ride i think the handling is well judged. It's a big, heavy, comfortable road car, not an elise. If you wanted to ruin it by putting track hard suspension on it, plenty of aftermarket kits are availible to do just that for not much money, or just ask your local dealer to leave the spring packers in after the pdi.......
5) numb brakes
Numb compared to what? Sure, they aren't Caterham sharp, or able to stop you from 200mph like a 400mm pair of carbon ceramics but once again, it's a diesel estate car. In terms of pedal weights and linearity to longitudinal decceleration actually the braking loads are i think well optimised for the intended market point
6) undesirable but quite expensive car.
You think it's undesirable because it's not a sports car. Well, other people might not want there medium sized family estate cars to actually BE sports cars! And expensive, so what? Every high end model is expensive these days, i'd say for the performance and level of fit/finish and feature content it's not THAT expensive. You could by buy a Caterham for the same money which doesn't even come with side windows, let alone electric ones! (OR ABS, OR Infortainment, OR 5 seats and a large boot, OR 20kmile service intervals OR the ability to do 500miles on a tank, OR a 5star NCAP rating, or Cruise control, OR an automative transmission OR.......OR.....OR) So "Value for money" is totally subjective.
What people seem to miss is that cars need to be compared to similar cars. Nobody (well possibly Guy Martin ;-) complains they can't fit their step ladders in the fezza 458, because that would be silly. And it's equally silly to compare a 335d to anything but similar sized, mass produced passenger cars, and when you do this, i'm going to suggest it comes on very well indeed. (ie compare to say a XF, an A4, a C Class, or what have you)
Couldn't have put that better myself. I do find it odd that people expect them to be sport cars, they aren't, they however, very good at being a usable daily blending efficiency, power, cost & comfort. 1) I found it utterly boring, mundane.
Yes, it's a mass produced medium sized diesel estate car. Optimised to do lots of utterly boring, mundane road driving, which it does very well indeed.
2) not that economical
Sounds like the driver blaming his tools (or confusing efficiency with economy) If you drive carefully, it'll do well over 40mpg without too much problem. if you use the performance, then no, it won't, but it WILL be better than any equivalent gasoline engined car (due to the high expansion ratio and ability for lean-on-cruise operation)
3) or that quick over 60mph
It's got just under 300bhp, in 1700kg, for something like 170bhp/tonne. Clearly, that's not a supercar power to weight ratio now is it. It's got what i would call a "decent" level of performance these days, more than enough for general road driving, but no, it isn't going to win any Vmax events or 1/4mile runs.
4)coupled with a floaty/wallowy suspension
In terms of both primary and secondary ride i think the handling is well judged. It's a big, heavy, comfortable road car, not an elise. If you wanted to ruin it by putting track hard suspension on it, plenty of aftermarket kits are availible to do just that for not much money, or just ask your local dealer to leave the spring packers in after the pdi.......
5) numb brakes
Numb compared to what? Sure, they aren't Caterham sharp, or able to stop you from 200mph like a 400mm pair of carbon ceramics but once again, it's a diesel estate car. In terms of pedal weights and linearity to longitudinal decceleration actually the braking loads are i think well optimised for the intended market point
6) undesirable but quite expensive car.
You think it's undesirable because it's not a sports car. Well, other people might not want there medium sized family estate cars to actually BE sports cars! And expensive, so what? Every high end model is expensive these days, i'd say for the performance and level of fit/finish and feature content it's not THAT expensive. You could by buy a Caterham for the same money which doesn't even come with side windows, let alone electric ones! (OR ABS, OR Infortainment, OR 5 seats and a large boot, OR 20kmile service intervals OR the ability to do 500miles on a tank, OR a 5star NCAP rating, or Cruise control, OR an automative transmission OR.......OR.....OR) So "Value for money" is totally subjective.
What people seem to miss is that cars need to be compared to similar cars. Nobody (well possibly Guy Martin ;-) complains they can't fit their step ladders in the fezza 458, because that would be silly. And it's equally silly to compare a 335d to anything but similar sized, mass produced passenger cars, and when you do this, i'm going to suggest it comes on very well indeed. (ie compare to say a XF, an A4, a C Class, or what have you)
T16OLE said:
Couldn't have put that better myself. I do find it odd that people expect them to be sport cars, they aren't, they however, very good at being a usable daily blending efficiency, power, cost & comfort.
I don't expect it to be a sports car, I just said that I had the 335d and then the 335i, the 335i I found felt pretty similar just had a better rev range for when you fancied having some fun and sounded much, much nicer. The difference in economy was around 10-20% depending on what you were doing, or, for me doing 20,000 miles a year around 2-3% of overall running costs, in other words a complete non issue.
I was desperate for a 535d when I heard about them, and I loved mine when I had it too. I always desire cars, even diesels, just that with diesels I normally start looking for the next car after a few months, the petrols tend to hold my attention far longer.
Max_Torque said:
4)coupled with a floaty/wallowy suspension
In terms of both primary and secondary ride i think the handling is well judged. It's a big, heavy, comfortable road car, not an elise. If you wanted to ruin it by putting track hard suspension on it, plenty of aftermarket kits are availible to do just that for not much money, or just ask your local dealer to leave the spring packers in after the pdi.......
And yet Grandad on the 5-series thread complains that the BMW suspension is rock hard. Go figure.In terms of both primary and secondary ride i think the handling is well judged. It's a big, heavy, comfortable road car, not an elise. If you wanted to ruin it by putting track hard suspension on it, plenty of aftermarket kits are availible to do just that for not much money, or just ask your local dealer to leave the spring packers in after the pdi.......
I'm with you, it a great car for what it is. Whingers are just justifying their usually groundless dislike of diesels/BMW/both.
gizlaroc said:
I don't expect it to be a sports car, I just said that I had the 335d and then the 335i, the 335i I found felt pretty similar just had a better rev range for when you fancied having some fun and sounded much, much nicer.
Its the rev thing I don't get. I've had cars that revved to over 10,000rpm. The benefit was high power from small engines, therefore light engines, massively benefitting PWR. But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
Ares said:
But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
I think you are comparing N/A cars with Turbodiesel cars. Compare turbo petrol with turbo diesel. Maybe only 2k revs different and just as torquey feeling due to the turbo but a much more pleasurable experience. Not sure why you think they would be jerky?For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
Ahbefive said:
Ares said:
But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
I think you are comparing N/A cars with Turbodiesel cars. Compare turbo petrol with turbo diesel. Maybe only 2k revs different and just as torquey feeling due to the turbo but a much more pleasurable experience. Not sure why you think they would be jerky?For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
This diesel versus petrol thing seems to be an issue for those who for various reasons can only have one car, which must be a jack of all trades. For this reason a car which does the `best' for `most' of the time, must be selected.
For some this will be a petrol engined car, for others a diesel. Trying to make out another persons choice of vehicle is wrong because it does suit their own personal preferences seems to be utter nonsense. If for various reasons some prefer, or have to use a diesel so be it. If certain drivers don't like the characteristics of a petrol / diesel engine car, the answer is blindingly obvious, Don't buy one, but don't try to suggest that others who will have a different set of needs, and preferences should buy a car that does not best suit their particular needs or preferences.
For some this will be a petrol engined car, for others a diesel. Trying to make out another persons choice of vehicle is wrong because it does suit their own personal preferences seems to be utter nonsense. If for various reasons some prefer, or have to use a diesel so be it. If certain drivers don't like the characteristics of a petrol / diesel engine car, the answer is blindingly obvious, Don't buy one, but don't try to suggest that others who will have a different set of needs, and preferences should buy a car that does not best suit their particular needs or preferences.
Ares said:
Its the rev thing I don't get. I've had cars that revved to over 10,000rpm. The benefit was high power from small engines, therefore light engines, massively benefitting PWR.
But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
Have you thought about getting a chauffeur? But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, if key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
I have two Merc estates, one is the petrol E350 and the other the diesel C320cdi.
I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
gizlaroc said:
Ares said:
Its the rev thing I don't get. I've had cars that revved to over 10,000rpm. The benefit was high power from small engines, therefore light engines, massively benefitting PWR.
But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, is key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
Have you thought about getting a chauffeur? But, the higher the red line, the less flexibility it brings, the harder work it is, the more difficult it is to keep it in the power band, and the jerkier the progress becomes. If on top of that, it doesn't bring any benefit in engine weight, then it's just halcyon day experience of feeling like you are 'adding to the experience' by working hard. For some that is enough. Some people aren't 'properly driving' if they aren't double de-clutching, or if the car has ABS, or power steering.
For me, driving is the interest. Keeping in the power band, when pushing on, is key - doing so with minimal effort but maximum effect is key.
Just my 2p.
gizlaroc said:
I have two Merc estates, one is the petrol E350 and the other the diesel C320cdi.
I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
The E350 has almost 100bhp on the 320cdi though, and the cdi is not a particularly refined lump.I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
If the Diesel was as quick, or quicker than the petrol. And no noiser (i.e., you couldn't hear either), would the petrol be so much better? And why?
But it was the same with the 335d vs the 335i.
For me there is a big difference between a car going round lovely back roads and holding it in third between 2500 and 7000 rpm vs going down the same road and it swapping cogs constantly as there is only 2000rpm to play with.
Plus I just love the way the power just keeps getting stronger and stronger as you climb through the revs, it does with the diesel, but just as it starts to get really good it drops down and starts again, it is a different feeling to the diesel, it goes on for 50% longer and that is the bit which really makes you giggle. On paper they are almost the same, but in reality they do feel different, not massively, but enough.
For me there is a big difference between a car going round lovely back roads and holding it in third between 2500 and 7000 rpm vs going down the same road and it swapping cogs constantly as there is only 2000rpm to play with.
Plus I just love the way the power just keeps getting stronger and stronger as you climb through the revs, it does with the diesel, but just as it starts to get really good it drops down and starts again, it is a different feeling to the diesel, it goes on for 50% longer and that is the bit which really makes you giggle. On paper they are almost the same, but in reality they do feel different, not massively, but enough.
Ares said:
No - just the love of revs. Turbo Petrol cars have a similar lack of revs/greater flexibility (and thus better IMO), but they would thus would turn off the rev hungry 'proper' driver. My comment was purely on the need for high revs if you want to drive 'properly'.
I don't know what you mean by "proper driver". Rally cars and F1 cars are driven by "proper drivers" and the have turbos. Do you mean "elderly proper drivers"?Personally I'm a fan of turbos but that is not really what this thread is about.
Ahbefive said:
Ares said:
No - just the love of revs. Turbo Petrol cars have a similar lack of revs/greater flexibility (and thus better IMO), but they would thus would turn off the rev hungry 'proper' driver. My comment was purely on the need for high revs if you want to drive 'properly'.
I don't know what you mean by "proper driver". Rally cars and F1 cars are driven by "proper drivers" and the have turbos. Do you mean "elderly proper drivers"?Personally I'm a fan of turbos but that is not really what this thread is about.
Nanook said:
Ares said:
No - just the love of revs. Turbo Petrol cars have a similar lack of revs/greater flexibility (and thus better IMO), but they would thus would turn off the rev hungry 'proper' driver. My comment was purely on the need for high revs if you want to drive 'properly'.
My old buckethead Impreza STI would rev to 8000. No issue with lack of revs there.
So lets amend it to most modern/current turbo petrol cars (we were taking about the 335i - c100bhp/litre, not the Subaru which was 150+bhp/litre....and became more peaky because of it)
Ares said:
I'm totally with you. It was the response to the guy that said his 335i was the the car he wanted to drive properly *because* it revved high. My comment was that revving highly was overrated, in my experience and opinion!
I'm with you on this. Most driving on the roads today is not for fun, it is simply a means to get from A to B. This is for a variety of reasons such as congestion, speed limits etc. So, anything that will get that job done in a refined and easy manner is OK for that, therefore a diesel makes a lot of sense nowadays.However, to enjoy a 'proper' drive then the engagement with the car is important, a petrol is better for that. Track-days are an example of a proper driving experience, early morning fun drives can also be proper drives given the correct set of circumstances. For on-road proper drives something like a Caterham makes the most sense because it is fun below the legal limit, too many modern cars need to be driven at silly speeds to be fun.
gizlaroc said:
I have two Merc estates, one is the petrol E350 and the other the diesel C320cdi.
I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
I have exactly the same thoughts as you on this and chop and change between a 640d/330i, even though the 330i is much slower than the 640d I much prefer the petrol engine ultimately. I always think when driving the C320cdi why would I need any thing else? It is quick, it is effortless, it is always in the right 'rev range' and it is a joy to cover ground in.
I then get back into the E350 petrol and I will be honest, at first even I think "hmm, it feels nice and refined but the diesel is still very good" and then you get a point where you over take, or hit some back roads and the petrol just starts to make more sense.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. But after a week in the diesel week before last and then spending last week in the petrol I have put the diesel up for sale. It is great, just not as good as the petrol. I want to go on journeys for the sake of it with the petrol, the diesel I enjoy when I am in it, but I don't want to take it out for a quick blast just for the sake of it, and that is the difference.
It's the one trick pony bit with a diesel I don't like whereas I find there's much more depth to a petrol.
Perhaps unfair comparing a N/A engine to a turbo engine but I suppose it's just the way an engine makes you feel.
One thing I do like about a diesel is you can go quickly without fuss and the passengers wouldn't notice, go quickly in a N/A petrol and the passengers will think you're a lunatic!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff