Is there such a thing as a desirable diesel?
Discussion
Had a Fabia VRS a while back, not better or worse than the equivalent petrol hatch just 'different'. Had the power delivery of a van with the noise to boot, but in a lightweight little hatch, it felt so much quicker than it was simply because of the torque mountain at 2krpm. Plenty of diesels are desirable to different people.For instance if I want something to tow my boat around a diesel is so much more effortless than a petrol. There are plenty of people who prefer driving diesels because they like the torqey feel.
Nanook said:
daytona111r said:
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ks. Take an Audi A3 2.0 tdi vs 2.0 petrol as example. I would choose the tdi for its torque every single time over the petrol. In normal traffic it can feel fast with a bit of grunt, where you have to work the patrol engine hard and it feels wheezy. Granted it doesn't sound great at idle, but the petrol sounds pathetic anyway., And driving them to extract similar levels of performance, the diesel has superior economy.
The petrol A3 (exclusing the 2.0 S3) makes 220bhp and 258lbft.ks. Take an Audi A3 2.0 tdi vs 2.0 petrol as example. I would choose the tdi for its torque every single time over the petrol. In normal traffic it can feel fast with a bit of grunt, where you have to work the patrol engine hard and it feels wheezy. Granted it doesn't sound great at idle, but the petrol sounds pathetic anyway., And driving them to extract similar levels of performance, the diesel has superior economy. The diesel makes 181bhp & 280lbft, is slower to 60, 100, and lower top end.
Wheezy? What?
Yes certainly but they need to be big, have 6+ cylinders, be mated to an auto transmission and be fitted to a large luxury car or 4x4. I am currently considering purchasing a diesel AWD barge/4x4 and there are some very appealing ones (to me) out there. The Range Rover TDV8, Grand Cherokee CRD (Mercedes 320 CDI engine), Audi A8 4.2 tdi, various flavours of 242bhp 3.0l V6 tdi Audis (A4, A5, A6). If money were no object I'd probably pick the petrol alternatives (RR supercharged, GC 5.7 Hemi, A8 W12, S4/S5/S6) but the diesels are still desirable cars, the range and torque are compelling arguments for and the noise a fairly weak argument against.
I really don't like 4-pot diesels though, they can never be desirable. I'm afraid a 'premium' car with one is just not 'premium' to me at all, even the latest ones are nasty rattly things whereas the V6/I6 and V8 diesels are really impressive.
I really don't like 4-pot diesels though, they can never be desirable. I'm afraid a 'premium' car with one is just not 'premium' to me at all, even the latest ones are nasty rattly things whereas the V6/I6 and V8 diesels are really impressive.
GravelMachineGun said:
No idea why people hate diesels so much.
I'm convinced it's because they think it makes them look all "cool" and "sporting" or whatever. Same reasons that EVs will apparently "never work".........BTW, my 335d is a brilliant car. It's not a sports car, but i don't want a sports car, so that's perfect!
Yes. I say this as an avid diesel hater.
Diesels are desirable in large heavy vehicles where refinement and performance is not the goal and mpg is more important.
Trucks, vans, large 4x4's, MPV's, tanks etc.
Outside of that I can admire the effort that goes into fast diesels, for example if you take a 640d and I can admire how fast it is but there is no desire for it.
The only diesel I'd desire would be something like this:
Diesels are desirable in large heavy vehicles where refinement and performance is not the goal and mpg is more important.
Trucks, vans, large 4x4's, MPV's, tanks etc.
Outside of that I can admire the effort that goes into fast diesels, for example if you take a 640d and I can admire how fast it is but there is no desire for it.
The only diesel I'd desire would be something like this:
i still don't lust after one but i was extremely impressed with my bosses M50d X5. The torque is just monumental from the triple turbos and it doesn't sound diesel like at all. I just didn't quite see 'the point'.
still.. id spend the bit extra and have got an X5m but he was having none of it.
also test drove an early 123d on the weekend (ended up buying a 320d!) but i couldn't get over how much of a rapid little thing they are! Insurance was significantly higher on this compared to the 320d as insurers said it was seen as a hot hatch.. definitely drove like one.
but yes ultimately, i still hate diesels, but i could understand why something like a 335d might the desirable to the thinking man who wants oomph and reasonable economy in return.
still.. id spend the bit extra and have got an X5m but he was having none of it.
also test drove an early 123d on the weekend (ended up buying a 320d!) but i couldn't get over how much of a rapid little thing they are! Insurance was significantly higher on this compared to the 320d as insurers said it was seen as a hot hatch.. definitely drove like one.
but yes ultimately, i still hate diesels, but i could understand why something like a 335d might the desirable to the thinking man who wants oomph and reasonable economy in return.
Max_Torque said:
GravelMachineGun said:
No idea why people hate diesels so much.
I'm convinced it's because they think it makes them look all "cool" and "sporting" or whatever. Same reasons that EVs will apparently "never work".........Fastdruid said:
Yes. I say this as an avid diesel hater.
Diesels are desirable in large heavy vehicles where refinement and performance is not the goal and mpg is more important.
Trucks, vans, large 4x4's, MPV's, tanks etc.
Outside of that I can admire the effort that goes into fast diesels, for example if you take a 640d and I can admire how fast it is but there is no desire for it.
The only diesel I'd desire would be something like this:
That, or that GMC Sierra featured yesterday.Diesels are desirable in large heavy vehicles where refinement and performance is not the goal and mpg is more important.
Trucks, vans, large 4x4's, MPV's, tanks etc.
Outside of that I can admire the effort that goes into fast diesels, for example if you take a 640d and I can admire how fast it is but there is no desire for it.
The only diesel I'd desire would be something like this:
Or this, if diesel electric counts?
Fastdruid said:
Max_Torque said:
GravelMachineGun said:
No idea why people hate diesels so much.
I'm convinced it's because they think it makes them look all "cool" and "sporting" or whatever. Same reasons that EVs will apparently "never work".........
Ares said:
alock said:
There are two types of desirable diesels.
Old non-turbobdiesels that will do hundreds of thousands of miles with little maintenance.
The latest batch of 1.6 turbo diesels in small cars that can average 70mpg in day to day driving.
Any attempt at a performance diesel just degrades what they are best at. It's then just a scale as to how many compromises each person is happy to accept.
390bhp. Recent 690miles round-trip without stopping for fuel.Old non-turbobdiesels that will do hundreds of thousands of miles with little maintenance.
The latest batch of 1.6 turbo diesels in small cars that can average 70mpg in day to day driving.
Any attempt at a performance diesel just degrades what they are best at. It's then just a scale as to how many compromises each person is happy to accept.
Which one of your two types does my car fit into?
And where is the compromise that I have to accept?
As I said, the only modern diesel engines I think are desirable are those that play to the main strength of diesel, i.e. fuel economy. No 390bhp engine in anything this side of a lorry fits that category. Your compromise is therefore not being able to do over 1000 miles with the same amount of fuel. That might not matter to you, but it would to me.
Everyone is different and values different characteristics in an engine/car. If I'm going to have to put up with the negatives of a diesel I want to make absolutely sure I can appreciate their positives to the greatest extent.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
I was being sarcastic. He did say 'all' though And Audi do it so they dont have to spend so much time in the 'petrol station' as it were, another valid argument for diesels.
Edited by p1stonhead on Thursday 13th October 12:02
Fastdruid said:
Outside of that I can admire the effort that goes into fast diesels, for example if you take a 640d and I can admire how fast it is but there is no desire for it.
....For you.Ironically, my 640d GC is the most admired car I've had based on comments from strangers, including my Caterham and Exige.
alock said:
Ares said:
alock said:
There are two types of desirable diesels.
Old non-turbobdiesels that will do hundreds of thousands of miles with little maintenance.
The latest batch of 1.6 turbo diesels in small cars that can average 70mpg in day to day driving.
Any attempt at a performance diesel just degrades what they are best at. It's then just a scale as to how many compromises each person is happy to accept.
390bhp. Recent 690miles round-trip without stopping for fuel.Old non-turbobdiesels that will do hundreds of thousands of miles with little maintenance.
The latest batch of 1.6 turbo diesels in small cars that can average 70mpg in day to day driving.
Any attempt at a performance diesel just degrades what they are best at. It's then just a scale as to how many compromises each person is happy to accept.
Which one of your two types does my car fit into?
And where is the compromise that I have to accept?
As I said, the only modern diesel engines I think are desirable are those that play to the main strength of diesel, i.e. fuel economy. No 390bhp engine in anything this side of a lorry fits that category. Your compromise is therefore not being able to do over 1000 miles with the same amount of fuel. That might not matter to you, but it would to me.
Everyone is different and values different characteristics in an engine/car. If I'm going to have to put up with the negatives of a diesel I want to make absolutely sure I can appreciate their positives to the greatest extent.
I'll throw my opinion on this in.
Basically the type of driving I do is 40% motorway, 40% straight A-road with the odd roundabout and 20% B roads. I do 90 miles a day during the week and general pottering around at the weekend.
For this task, I want a car that gives good mpg (45+) and more importantly I need a tank range of 450 miles minimum (more like 500 is ideal). Therefore as far as I am aware having a petrol isn't really an option with that criteria. I also like to drive briskly on the motorway, a diesel is ideal for this because at speed the revs are much lower than they would be in a similar petrol car (lazy V8's aside).
There are several people on pistonheads that hate diesels etc. and I can see where they are coming from, the negatives such as the sound and power delivery of the engine right down to the smell of the fuel at the pump are things that some people simply won't put up with. However these are things that do not bother me, if I was doing lower mileage then I would get a petrol car for sure but for the mileage I do I am happy to sacrifice sound and smoothness for MPG and tank range. I mention again that personally I find a diesel car much more relaxing to drive at motorway speeds in comparison to a petrol engine that is sitting at roughly 4000rpm. Also when the roads do get twisty, a car with a decent enough chassis and a diesel engine can still be rewarding and enjoyable to drive. I'd go as far as saying the people that can still enjoy themselves on a country road in a diesel are the most passionate drivers of all!
Anyway answering the thread and taking the above into account, the diesel cars I would like to own are -
BMW 640D - Like the look of them, can imagine arriving at places feeling much fresher in that and being more willing to take my time and be patient with other drivers due to being in a nicer car.
BMW 335/330/325D - These definitely appeal to me, but I think for the amount they cost that I can live without the benefits of them in comparison to my current car.
Golf GTD - Having had a diesel golf before, I do like the look of these but with most cars that I like the look of I think that for the amount they would cost I would rather throw the money towards a house extension.
Basically the type of driving I do is 40% motorway, 40% straight A-road with the odd roundabout and 20% B roads. I do 90 miles a day during the week and general pottering around at the weekend.
For this task, I want a car that gives good mpg (45+) and more importantly I need a tank range of 450 miles minimum (more like 500 is ideal). Therefore as far as I am aware having a petrol isn't really an option with that criteria. I also like to drive briskly on the motorway, a diesel is ideal for this because at speed the revs are much lower than they would be in a similar petrol car (lazy V8's aside).
There are several people on pistonheads that hate diesels etc. and I can see where they are coming from, the negatives such as the sound and power delivery of the engine right down to the smell of the fuel at the pump are things that some people simply won't put up with. However these are things that do not bother me, if I was doing lower mileage then I would get a petrol car for sure but for the mileage I do I am happy to sacrifice sound and smoothness for MPG and tank range. I mention again that personally I find a diesel car much more relaxing to drive at motorway speeds in comparison to a petrol engine that is sitting at roughly 4000rpm. Also when the roads do get twisty, a car with a decent enough chassis and a diesel engine can still be rewarding and enjoyable to drive. I'd go as far as saying the people that can still enjoy themselves on a country road in a diesel are the most passionate drivers of all!
Anyway answering the thread and taking the above into account, the diesel cars I would like to own are -
BMW 640D - Like the look of them, can imagine arriving at places feeling much fresher in that and being more willing to take my time and be patient with other drivers due to being in a nicer car.
BMW 335/330/325D - These definitely appeal to me, but I think for the amount they cost that I can live without the benefits of them in comparison to my current car.
Golf GTD - Having had a diesel golf before, I do like the look of these but with most cars that I like the look of I think that for the amount they would cost I would rather throw the money towards a house extension.
Edited by Al U on Thursday 13th October 12:12
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