RWD - FWD - LSD - No of Cyls. Can You Really Tell?
Discussion
CharlesdeGaulle said:
This is exactly my point. I bet the vast majority of people get in a car without knowing - or caring - which wheels are driven. Or how many cylinders it has. For many of them, even which fuel it uses.
And whilst you will undoubtedly be able to tell the driveline configuration the moment you pull away, my proposition is that nearly every one else won't have a clue.
I dunno And whilst you will undoubtedly be able to tell the driveline configuration the moment you pull away, my proposition is that nearly every one else won't have a clue.
Seems to me a bit like turning the screen on and finding it's a Micros
te or a Crapple operating system - you're going to know, or find out soon enough. I agree there's a small percentage of drivers who couldn't find a dipstick if it was shoved up their ***** but they have to be in the minority, don't they???Otherwise there's not much hope for any of us!
The moment manufacturers stopped putting 1.6 l, or 2.0 ghia or 3.0 gls I was lost as to what model specific a car is. Let's be honest no one could even distinguish which 3 series a BMW was of the vast model range for example or, in reality, even care. To a greater degree this applies to most model ranges. Get into the Korean stuff, goodness knows what is what.
It might to you as a ph'er, but not to most folk.
Mind you I don't even understand the new number plate system, so buying a new car to impress anyone is lost on me.
It might to you as a ph'er, but not to most folk.
Mind you I don't even understand the new number plate system, so buying a new car to impress anyone is lost on me.
I don't like to speak for the rest of the general public but only as being a very small part of it.
Anyway, try taking a v6 Mitsubishi Gallant round a corner with any throttle input and then the same with my Tuscan.
FWD 0, RWD 1
As mentioned on the engine detail, I'm not so sensitive apart from size and noise.
Although I have to say I hate turbo lag. It's disgusting IMPO.
Anyway the Gin, wine, brandy is kicking in now so better go.
Anyway, try taking a v6 Mitsubishi Gallant round a corner with any throttle input and then the same with my Tuscan.
FWD 0, RWD 1
As mentioned on the engine detail, I'm not so sensitive apart from size and noise.
Although I have to say I hate turbo lag. It's disgusting IMPO.
Anyway the Gin, wine, brandy is kicking in now so better go.
Drive ? Can't believe anyone could fail to notice the difference.
Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a ste noise I could not really believe it was a v8
Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a s
te noise I could not really believe it was a v8Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Gary C said:
Drive ? Can't believe anyone could fail to notice the difference.
Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a ste noise I could not really believe it was a v8
Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Grand Marquis, perfect example.Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a s
te noise I could not really believe it was a v8Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Were they all V8's don't think mine was.
so called said:
Gary C said:
Drive ? Can't believe anyone could fail to notice the difference.
Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a ste noise I could not really believe it was a v8
Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Grand Marquis, perfect example.Number of cylinders, maybe. Had to look under the bonnet of a grand marquis to find out it was a v8 as it was so slow and made such a s
te noise I could not really believe it was a v8Lsd's can be more difficult as the difference between a plated diff, a Torsen, and maybe a suretrac can be more subtle. For example the togichi diff in the rx8 is hard to notice as the stability control &TC tend to hide its operation, whereas a two way plated diff can make its presence known quite emphatically when braking
Were they all V8's don't think mine was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrqMAIyWLLk
These are quite obvious things. For me, what people really struggle with is grip vs handling. The bulk of drivers, including the Gods that reside on PH, have no idea what the latter is. Chuck some wide tyres on a production car and that will satisfy 99% of owners with the predictable "handles like a go-kart" comment.
In fact, enthusiasts are probably the worst. They never get close to approaching the envelope of their car's ability, yet will quote ad nauseam from the professionals (i.e. Chris Harris) as if they have the same ability.
I do remember a guy at work telling me that he controlled a "drift" in his quattro diesel A6 recently. I didn't have the heart to say the car was simply not capable of that on anything other than ice. Likewise, i've been a passenger in cars where excessive bodyroll combined with jiggling of the steering wheel has been described as oversteer. You can see why these crazy powered production cars of late have to be tied down with electronics!
In fact, enthusiasts are probably the worst. They never get close to approaching the envelope of their car's ability, yet will quote ad nauseam from the professionals (i.e. Chris Harris) as if they have the same ability.
I do remember a guy at work telling me that he controlled a "drift" in his quattro diesel A6 recently. I didn't have the heart to say the car was simply not capable of that on anything other than ice. Likewise, i've been a passenger in cars where excessive bodyroll combined with jiggling of the steering wheel has been described as oversteer. You can see why these crazy powered production cars of late have to be tied down with electronics!
I suspect that most drivers lack the mechanical education to tell the difference, although they might have a vague idea that they like one car more than another. Most people have also not had the experience of enough engine configurations to have an opinion, even if they are aware that they aren't all just "engines".
There is an easy difference in feel between FWD/RWD/AWD in how the car pulls through a corner, you can tell if you've got an LSD too, the inside wheel loses traction and the revs seem to jitter as the wheel grips and slips if you don't have it. Non LSD in a rear wheel drive is a recipe for spin outs in the wet too!
ABS makes a huge difference, you can leave 11's on the tarmac when braking without it
As for number of cylinders, I can tell the difference between a petrol and a diesel, 3,4,6 and 8 plus the oddities like a v10 or 12. Couldn't tell you the difference between a V6 or i6 though!
ABS makes a huge difference, you can leave 11's on the tarmac when braking without it
As for number of cylinders, I can tell the difference between a petrol and a diesel, 3,4,6 and 8 plus the oddities like a v10 or 12. Couldn't tell you the difference between a V6 or i6 though!
For sure, the vast majority of people wouldn't know or care, but that doesn't mean someone who's been brought up around cars and been an enthusiast for as long as they can remember can't tell. We shouldn't judge our experiences on the lowest common demominator, as the OP suggests we should. Understanding the differences that the OP mentions, particularly FWD vs RWD, is like telling the difference between 4/4 and 3/4 time signatures; someone not into music may not know, but to anyone with half a clue about music it's bloody obvious within seconds. I find the OP's suggestion that those of us who hate FWD and love RWD are deluding ourselves a bit odd - for me it's the single most defining factor of a car.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Another thread got me thinking about how many people really can tell the difference in a car's performance based on what fuel they put in it. Does the expensive stuff really make a difference; can you honestly tell? Really?
Feeling the difference of different fuel is a bit more complex because some cars are more sensitive to it than others. I can easily feel the difference between 95RON and 98 in my twin turbo Subaru. If I put 91 in I would probably be able to tell by a horrible knocking sound. On the other hand many other cars (especially non-sporting NA ones) don't display much difference if any.Rwd vs Fwd is pretty obvious. In fact a middle-aged woman was recently telling me that she doesn't like driving the people-mover she bought to lug her grandkids around as much as the older one she had previously, because its Fwd and the old one was Rwd. She's not a petrolhead trackday driver, but she can tell the difference clearly enough.
LSDs, as others have said often only become obvious around the limit of traction. Spinning up an inside wheel while losing momentum is pretty clear sign that you don't have one!
Edited by GravelBen on Monday 17th October 06:35
Electronic wizardry has evened out the differences between drive, transmssion and engine variations in recent years - in some cars going as far as disguising the number of cylinders. Does the average person care? Why would they? They just want a car that's safe, economical and suits their image.
It's possible to tell the difference between a proper LSD and the rubbish braked-spinning-wheel rubbish that many a manufacturer are putting in place of a mechanical LSD these days too. The electric one works a little bit, up to a point, but the mechanical LSD makes the car feel soooo much more predictable.
just to add another thought: how about this for a non ph view.
Lad at work had bought himself a petrol BMW 5 series. This is his treat car, his rarey used car. Why ? Because he can't afford the 18 mpg or whatever it does.
so he drives a diesel vectra. Engine had just blown on the latter: thus he had to drive the petrol BMW for some weeks now.
Guess what, its crippling him financially - honestly.
Now moving away from all the manly car talk, that is PH: in the real world, the 10 or so blokes that sit with this chap have done nothing but take the P out of him and his stupid BMW. Not a single person is impressed with the BMW, its all about what MPG they're getting from their cars.
Nuts to the driving experience- its what your car costs you day to day to run. the cheaper the better. Maybe its because we're in Yorkshire and we're tight ? Don't get me wrong, within the conversations, we've talked about nice cars we've all had and so on: but in the cold light of day, it comes down to cold brass tacks and money of owning the thing.
I suppose unless you are some isolated roads, with a free run ahead of you: the vast majority of driving is just slogging alone and the answer, is RWD, FWD et al: well who cares ?
Lad at work had bought himself a petrol BMW 5 series. This is his treat car, his rarey used car. Why ? Because he can't afford the 18 mpg or whatever it does.
so he drives a diesel vectra. Engine had just blown on the latter: thus he had to drive the petrol BMW for some weeks now.
Guess what, its crippling him financially - honestly.
Now moving away from all the manly car talk, that is PH: in the real world, the 10 or so blokes that sit with this chap have done nothing but take the P out of him and his stupid BMW. Not a single person is impressed with the BMW, its all about what MPG they're getting from their cars.
Nuts to the driving experience- its what your car costs you day to day to run. the cheaper the better. Maybe its because we're in Yorkshire and we're tight ? Don't get me wrong, within the conversations, we've talked about nice cars we've all had and so on: but in the cold light of day, it comes down to cold brass tacks and money of owning the thing.
I suppose unless you are some isolated roads, with a free run ahead of you: the vast majority of driving is just slogging alone and the answer, is RWD, FWD et al: well who cares ?
I can tell although I haven't driven a RWD with an LSD yet and all my RWD experiences are with Vans (trust me, you can really tell the difference between FWD and RWD in a van!).
I am pretty good at telling how many cylinders a car has too and the layout of those cylinders, and whether an enigne is longtitudinal or transverse.
I am pretty good at telling how many cylinders a car has too and the layout of those cylinders, and whether an enigne is longtitudinal or transverse.
austinsmirk said:
its all about what MPG they're getting from their cars.
I had this from my boss recently. I decided to switch from a Diesel Leon FR+ (I used to drive 100 miles a day, 6 days a week) to a Leon Cupra 290 Black (as I now drive 6 miles a day). So fancied something a little brisk, a step up in performance if you will, without breaking the bank and I could take out for an enjoyable drive at the weekend.She asked what MPG I'd get from it. I said around 20-30. She was absolutely horrified. And I mean gobsmacked. She is absolutely adamant that she sees 120MPG from her A-class diesel. I tried to explain to her that she cannot be getting anywhere near 120MPG and she replied with "I put £50 in and that's done me 600 miles so far and I'm on half a tank." I tried to keep my laughter in.
To her, the enjoyment of driving a faster car or the reason that I wanted something to throw about for a few years because I like my cars didn't matter. It isn't a 1.6 eco-diesel, so I was an idiot for changing car.
TameRacingDriver said:
If you have any interest at all in cars are driving these things will be obvious.
FWD v RWD - easy! And I'm no Ken Block either. In the dry, a RWD car has massively more traction off the line you can't fail to notice. Steering is uncorrupted by power. The handling characteristics are generally completely different, in so much as if you try and drive a RWD car fast in the same way you would a FWD car you'll probably end up as part of the scenery.
LSD - fairly easy to tell - take car to a hairpin bend and floor it. Without - wheelspin, with it, you will find a lot more traction.
No of cylinders - definitely. Most 4-pots are bland as hell. Anything with 5 or more always seems to sound better (howling VTEC excepted). The straight-6 in my Z4 howls better than the V6 in my old 350Z, but the 350Z sounded meatier starting up, and at low revs. The same can be said for 5-pots, V8s, V10s and V12s.
I'd be more surprised if someone COULDN'T tell the differences.
Problem is, you're describing situations that most drivers don't ever get into, or want to get into. Most people get in to their little box, and drive to the shops or work. They probably use about 40% of the car's capabilites, these features only become apparent when using the other 60%. FWD v RWD - easy! And I'm no Ken Block either. In the dry, a RWD car has massively more traction off the line you can't fail to notice. Steering is uncorrupted by power. The handling characteristics are generally completely different, in so much as if you try and drive a RWD car fast in the same way you would a FWD car you'll probably end up as part of the scenery.
LSD - fairly easy to tell - take car to a hairpin bend and floor it. Without - wheelspin, with it, you will find a lot more traction.
No of cylinders - definitely. Most 4-pots are bland as hell. Anything with 5 or more always seems to sound better (howling VTEC excepted). The straight-6 in my Z4 howls better than the V6 in my old 350Z, but the 350Z sounded meatier starting up, and at low revs. The same can be said for 5-pots, V8s, V10s and V12s.
I'd be more surprised if someone COULDN'T tell the differences.
RWD vs FWD. On a typical school run, the only way I can differentiate between RWD (Jag) and FWD (Alfa 156 V6) is that the Jag lights up inner back wheel as I pull out of the lane. For the rest of the 7, boring, prawn infested miles, no difference.
LSD vs non LSD - well as it happens I have a 156 with, and one with out. It's hard to tell the difference unless you are going for it. When you are going for it - it's like chalk and cheese. Most people don't "go for it".
Number of cylinders - well yes. I have several Alfa V6s in the fleet, and they sound great - I'm the slightly retentive bloke who can recognise an Alfa 12v vs 24v from the noise. That said, most people have no clue.
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