Anyone into cars but not credit?
Discussion
RSK21 said:
I think you have have confused tone and style with content and point of view.
As regards that posting style I am not recommending one at all and neither am I accusing DA of being in any way inarticulate in his views.
Take your words about a health warning - It's all about "may" and not "will". Now I'm happy to admit that I might be reading it all wrong, but in my mind I see some of the commenst from DA as inferring "will" not "may" and that the only way to cushion oneself for later life is to save for a pension thus leading to a very binary POV which then says "You can't afford X on a credit agreement because x is entirely proportionate to what you should be putting away each month". It's no doubt statistically valid but doesn't reflect everybody's reality.
Compared to many that post on PH I'd say his tone/style was authoritative and mature which is a contrast to many of the juvenile contributors who routinely respond to opposing views with troll-like insults. At a guess I'd say he has an economics degree or similar as he demonstrates a good grasp of the issues.
As regards that posting style I am not recommending one at all and neither am I accusing DA of being in any way inarticulate in his views.
Take your words about a health warning - It's all about "may" and not "will". Now I'm happy to admit that I might be reading it all wrong, but in my mind I see some of the commenst from DA as inferring "will" not "may" and that the only way to cushion oneself for later life is to save for a pension thus leading to a very binary POV which then says "You can't afford X on a credit agreement because x is entirely proportionate to what you should be putting away each month". It's no doubt statistically valid but doesn't reflect everybody's reality.
Compared to many that post on PH I'd say his tone/style was authoritative and mature which is a contrast to many of the juvenile contributors who routinely respond to opposing views with troll-like insults. At a guess I'd say he has an economics degree or similar as he demonstrates a good grasp of the issues.
Edited by RSK21 on Saturday 22 October 15:50
Edited by RSK21 on Saturday 22 October 15:56
swerni said:
bit like a drugs deal who tells you it's going to get you hooked, but sells it anyway?
Shades of grey.
And yet we live in a world where said drug dealers are looked down upon, but we spend £8bn a year as a society a year on another poison (caffeine), either via coffee bean dealers or coffee shops.Shades of grey.
twoblacklines said:
swerni said:
bit like a drugs deal who tells you it's going to get you hooked, but sells it anyway?
Shades of grey.
And yet we live in a world where said drug dealers are looked down upon, but we spend £8bn a year as a society a year on another poison (caffeine), either via coffee bean dealers or coffee shops.Shades of grey.
RSK21 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Absolutely. But that isn't what I've been saying. Quite the opposite. It's when it is abused, a good example being when money that must be saved to replicate an income when employers stop employing you instead being used to buy non essential goods now. Ie, the money simply being there does not define affordability. It does define purchasing power but not affordability as many continue to claim. Affordability is what is left after all obligations are met, not just current obligations such as rent or food etc but also future, known obligations.
Unfortunately I think your posting style causes people to miss the facts as you outline them above and then others who aren't able to demonstrate your clarity of thought amplify the position such that what people hear is a distorted version akin to "using credit is stupid" or "using credit is reckless" .I
DonkeyApple said:
RSK21 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Absolutely. But that isn't what I've been saying. Quite the opposite. It's when it is abused, a good example being when money that must be saved to replicate an income when employers stop employing you instead being used to buy non essential goods now. Ie, the money simply being there does not define affordability. It does define purchasing power but not affordability as many continue to claim. Affordability is what is left after all obligations are met, not just current obligations such as rent or food etc but also future, known obligations.
Unfortunately I think your posting style causes people to miss the facts as you outline them above and then others who aren't able to demonstrate your clarity of thought amplify the position such that what people hear is a distorted version akin to "using credit is stupid" or "using credit is reckless" .I
But hey ho people will have nice memories of the new cars they rented when in retirement!
DonkeyApple said:
I don't disagree. I'm aware that I'm quite blunt in my writing style. I do think that some are quite quick to read what they want to read rather than what is written though. I guess my general view is that while credit is good it is also extremely dangerous and damaging and that as a society we have extended beyond the point at which credit is a positive attribute and that few people genuinely comprehend the destructive power of the excess.
I agree that excess credit is a bad thing but how bad depends on how exposed corporations are if a financial upset results in a lot of borrowers defaulting. Aside from mortgages average household personal debt is set to be £10k by the end of 2016. Is this bad? I'd guess that people having over extended themselves on mortgages is a bigger issue but again only if banks are exposed to too much risk.
However for me the bigger issue is what has driven this rise in credit. Our current economic model needs consumer credit to maintain the rate of growth, not least because globalisation has resulted in staganting salaries for the bottom 95% of workers. If people aren't earning more money they can't spend more, manufacturers can't sell more and so the economy doesn't grow. Credit is a temporary sticking plaster to try and deal with this problem. The fact that our current economic model doesn't really work for a large proportion of the population is the real issue. A small proportion of the population are getting richer at an exponential rate while everyone else is seeing earnings stay the same or even fall. The rise of the popularity of the far right is connected to this fact IMHO as well as people like Corbyn, Sanders and Trump. Unless the politicians can work out a way to make the economy work for the majority then we're heading for political and social turmoil.
Edited by Devil2575 on Sunday 23 October 09:25
DonkeyApple said:
I don't disagree. I'm aware that I'm quite blunt in my writing style. I do think that some are quite quick to read what they want to read rather than what is written though. I guess my general view is that while credit is good it is also extremely dangerous and damaging and that as a society we have extended beyond the point at which credit is a positive attribute and that few people genuinely comprehend the destructive power of the excess.
Your constant posts though about the evils of excess debt on society in a discussion like this are like posting about the effects on the environment of fossil fuel engines in a discussion about a new ferrari. Or bringing up obesity in the western world on a thread about dining out. Excess debt is bad. You like to bang that drum. A lot. We get it.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 23 October 09:44
Granfondo said:
We have had almost a decade of very low interest rates that could have been used to bring down personal debt and increase savings but the exact opposite has happened!
But hey ho people will have nice memories of the new cars they rented when in retirement!
Assuming that most people will need to have a reliable car no matter what, and the fact that as has been shown repeatedly on these threads leasing the right new car with the right deal can work out no more expensive than buying the same car used at < 5 years, is a far simpler ownership proposition and much easier to plan financially for, what alternative would you suggest? But hey ho people will have nice memories of the new cars they rented when in retirement!
Granfondo said:
We have had almost a decade of very low interest rates that could have been used to bring down personal debt and increase savings but the exact opposite has happened!
But hey ho people will have nice memories of the new cars they rented when in retirement!
Firstly, incredibly low interest rates means incredibly crap savings rates so it's hardly a surprise that people aren't putting as much as they should into savings accountsBut hey ho people will have nice memories of the new cars they rented when in retirement!
Secondly, surely you are working on the assumption that cars bought with cash don't depreciate or wear out? I will only be left with nice memories of my porsche when I retire because it will be long gone, irrespective of the fact it wasn't financed or leased.
lukefreeman said:
These threads are the worst "I earn this, I can afford that".
The only point that needs to be made is "who spends £600 on an a3 tdi?"
How much he earns doesn't matter, let him make his own financial descions.
That point doesn't need to b made - the £600 a month car in the original post ISN'T an a3 tdi.The only point that needs to be made is "who spends £600 on an a3 tdi?"
How much he earns doesn't matter, let him make his own financial descions.
DonkeyApple said:
RSK21 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Absolutely. But that isn't what I've been saying. Quite the opposite. It's when it is abused, a good example being when money that must be saved to replicate an income when employers stop employing you instead being used to buy non essential goods now. Ie, the money simply being there does not define affordability. It does define purchasing power but not affordability as many continue to claim. Affordability is what is left after all obligations are met, not just current obligations such as rent or food etc but also future, known obligations.
Unfortunately I think your posting style causes people to miss the facts as you outline them above and then others who aren't able to demonstrate your clarity of thought amplify the position such that what people hear is a distorted version akin to "using credit is stupid" or "using credit is reckless" .I
J4CKO said:
Agreed, its very like alcohol, great if used wisely, just dont become dependant/addicted on it.
Exactly. However we don't need the effects of alcohol addiction trotted out on a thread about fine wines so why is the effects of excess debt on the global economy relevant on a motoring forum?
In this case with the title of the thread being 'Anyone into cars but not credit' I can see why. Whilst I agree with very few of DA's points (and non of Audemars) I can understand why these things have been brought up TBH. All adds to the discussion, which is what most of us are here for I thought?
The problem is that the same 2 or 3 posters seem to jump onto every thread regarding leasing or finance with the same posts, whether it's relevant to the OP's question or not.
The problem is that the same 2 or 3 posters seem to jump onto every thread regarding leasing or finance with the same posts, whether it's relevant to the OP's question or not.
daemon said:
Firstly, incredibly low interest rates means incredibly crap savings rates so it's hardly a surprise that people aren't putting as much as they should into savings accounts
I can't understand this point of view. Low rates mean you should save MORE, rather than less, given the same target standard of living. As usual, it'll be people who do the 'right' thing and accumulate a little bit of wealth during their lifetime to account for this who get punitively taxed to bail everyone else out. Granfondo said:
We have had almost a decade of very low interest rates that could have been used to bring down personal debt and increase savings but the exact opposite has happened!
Why on earth would low interest rates have been used to do that?Low interest rates screw savers and reward borrowers!
NickCQ said:
Fox- said:
Why on earth would low interest rates have been used to do that?
Low interest rates screw savers and reward borrowers!
If rates go down, you pay off more principal for the same monthly payment, so you should delevrage faster...Low interest rates screw savers and reward borrowers!
Each to their own of course but I do understand his point.
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