Anyone into cars but not credit?

[gizlaroc]

The Spain/France argument doesn't hold up. Over there they don't have the silly deals we get here. Buying a new car is a lot more expensive, and thus buying a used car is also a lot more expensive too, but the gap is still bigger than the gap between new and used here.

If we take a couple of regular cars and look at how much they cost to run over 3 years new and up to 5 years old with 50k miles on it, I bet the difference is hardly anything.

Then look at the difference between say a BMW 318i Sport compared with say a Citroen C4 1.6i I bet there is bugger all between them either.

When you way it all up, for many peace of mind of being in a brand new car with no warranty issues and more modern and efficient tech is worth it to many.

I tend to buy my cars cash when I am flush and earning good money, when I am not flush and earning less I prefer to lease, fixed costs, no unexpected bills and I sleep easier.
I need a car, I have no choice in that, but when things are tighter I lease, it may be a 2 litre diesel compared with the 5 year old 3 litre V6 petrol, but the costs are similar.


I bet many people in the UK do the same, our lease costs are so cheap compared with sticker price it makes leasing a pretty sensible choice.

[Devil2575]

daemon said:

J4CKO said:

Agreed, its very like alcohol, great if used wisely, just dont become dependant/addicted on it.

Exactly.

However we don't need the effects of alcohol addiction trotted out on a thread about fine wines so why is the effects of excess debt on the global economy relevant on a motoring forum?

Because those who don't like credit want to paint everyone who uses it to buy a car as being wrong/driving a car they can't really afford.

[gizlaroc]

Just looked at the above figures I mentioned.....

Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?

So £420 a month all in?

You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.

So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.


A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.


If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)

So around £335 a month to run it.

So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.

[gizlaroc]

People like Granfondo are just snobs. They can't help themselves.

[Driver101]

gizlaroc said:

Just looked at the above figures I mentioned.....

Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?

So £420 a month all in?

You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.

So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.


A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.


If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)

So around £335 a month to run it.

So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.

I've not got time to rake through the classifieds, but I can see 2012(new shape) 320d for around £7500 with a few miles on the clock. There cars with 60k on the clock for little over £9000.

Most of your sums are relying on depreciation, but you've used an unfair price to exaggerate the numbers.

Buy a brand new car on finance and you'll more than likely be adding things like GAP insurance and likely pay for main dealer servicing.

We all see the headline figures for leasing and PCP deals, but they are for base model car usually with no options. You soon hit it's only another £20 a month for this and another £15 for that and the box ticking soon adds a lot of cost.

[Granfondo]

gizlaroc said:

People like Granfondo are just snobs. They can't help themselves.

please explain?

[Devil2575]

NickCQ said:

f1nn said:

I was to keep my current car, or lease 50k's worth of white Audi, what concern is that of anyone else?

I'm really not trying to refer to any specific posters here, but I get the sense that there are some people out there who feel that the vehicle pecking order is being upset by leasing. Time was where you could feel a little superior about having a £50k car because it indicated some level of financial success. Now anyone can get their hands on one, that feeling has gone away and the signalling value of the status symbol has declined.

I agree, although the vast majority of people still can't get a £50k car even on lease they are now available to a bigger pool of people.

There may be some who have an obsession with personal debt but I suspect the vast majority of the ire directed at people who lease os due to the reason you state

It's the same when people complain that you can spec a 320d to look visually similar to an M3.

[Alucidnation]

Where is the 'cringeworthy' thread when it's needed?

[M5Fan]

Putting the "this is a car forum" argument to one side, what some are arguing is that it's not necessary to change your car every 3 years.

Genuine question, what would the figures be if in your example the person buying the 17k BMW kept it for 10 years, with the other person being on their 4th lease?

gizlaroc said:

Just looked at the above figures I mentioned.....

Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?

So £420 a month all in?

You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.

So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.


A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.


If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)

So around £335 a month to run it.

So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.

[wemorgan]

Driver101 said:

We all see the headline figures for leasing and PCP deals, but they are for base model car usually with no options. You soon hit it's only another £20 a month for this and another £15 for that and the box ticking soon adds a lot of cost.

The best deals are often for the most popular cars demanded by the 2nd hand buyer. M-Sport, AMG Sport, S-Line etc.
But yes, stay clear off the options list when leasing as it gets very expensive.

Servicing: 1 service is only required for a 2 year lease.

[Fox-]

gizlaroc said:

Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.

The problem with this is you've just made up all the numbers.

You can buy F30's for far less than £17k if you are looking for the cheapest - you can factory order a brand new 318i for not much over £20k. Then you reckon in 3 years time its worth only £9k even though despite the fact it's been out over 4 years you reckoned the cheapest one was 17k?

I tried really hard to make leasing work for me because everyone bangs on like it's the second coming but aside from the specific bonkers deals on cars that didn't appeal and you couldn't add options to, it just worked out really expensive.

It seems like a good idea if you want a Golf R with solid paint, or a Citroen Cactus, or whatever, but if you know what you want and you want some additional specification it gets massively expensive very quickly.

Edited by Fox- on Sunday 23 October 18:15

[twoblacklines]

paranoid airbag said:

Don't the bolded sentences contradict each other?

I could have a decent chunk more in the bank if I'd PCP'd a car (the model I wanted being offered at 0% APR) rather than buying a second-hand model outright. Tbh I don't really care about depreciation - the only time I'm going to sell it is if I have enough money to make it a non-issue, or become desperate for cash. In the latter case I suspect I'd be far better off handing a leased car back.

Regardless, it just sounds like you friends are tts and would be whatever deals are offered. My comiserations, I mean that genuinely. One of my friends earns a lot more than me, and drives an IMO rather stty Insignia, but he's happy. Another earns the same and leases a DS3, and seems happy at the idea of handing it back.

Contradict how? What I mean by that is, I would only buy a £50k car if I had £50k in the bank to buy it with, but I won't because I would just invest it instead.

[twoblacklines]

Fox- said:

The only people who would ever say this are morons with whom I'd question the value of having as friends.

What a bizarre outlook some people have.

Yup, I got rid of him when I moved, and just declined to send on my new address for correspondance. Along with all my other "friends".

[twoblacklines]

Devil2575 said:

Because those who don't like credit want to paint everyone who uses it to buy a car as being wrong/driving a car they can't really afford.

In the same way that you accuse everyone who doesn't like credit as painting everyone who uses it in a good way, aren't you basically tarring all those that do use credit to buy something as very sensible people?

Because that is clearly wrong as well given by all the repossesions.

[anonymous-user]

twoblacklines said:

In the same way that you accuse everyone who doesn't like credit as painting everyone who uses it in a good way, aren't you basically tarring all those that do use credit to buy something as very sensible people?

Because that is clearly wrong as well given by all the repossesions.

But has he said that ?

Surely it's about making sensible decisions ?

Houses get repossessed sometimes - mortgages are not bad

Cars get repossessed sometimes - car credit is not bad

Cars get bought for cash and prove money pits - buying cars for cash is not bad

People make decisions in life. Sadly the collected genius of PH can't make them for everybody else.

[Devil2575]

twoblacklines said:

Devil2575 said:

Because those who don't like credit want to paint everyone who uses it to buy a car as being wrong/driving a car they can't really afford.

In the same way that you accuse everyone who doesn't like credit as painting everyone who uses it in a good way, aren't you basically tarring all those that do use credit to buy something as very sensible people?

Because that is clearly wrong as well given by all the repossesions.

No I'm not. I have never said that all who use credit are sensible people.

My point is that credit works for a lot of people so to judge someone on the basis of them using credit is wrong.

Unless you know someones finances intimately then you aren't really in a position to comment.

[anonymous-user]

swerni said:

twoblacklines said:

Contradict how? What I mean by that is, I would only buy a £50k car if I had £50k in the bank to buy it with, but I won't because I would just invest it instead.

So you wouldn't buy one if you had £50k in your account then ?

So the £50k question is would the gentleman in question buy a car as an investment.

[SWoll]

M5Fan said:

Putting the "this is a car forum" argument to one side, what some are arguing is that it's not necessary to change your car every 3 years.

Genuine question, what would the figures be if in your example the person buying the 17k BMW kept it for 10 years, with the other person being on their 4th lease?

gizlaroc said:

Just looked at the above figures I mentioned.....

Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?

So £420 a month all in?

You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.

So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.


A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.


If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)

So around £335 a month to run it.

So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.

It starts to get quite complicated because you need to start taking into account the increasing costs of warranties on the older car, servicing at higher mileages, wear and tear items that will need to be changed, RFL etc. for it to be a fairer comparison with the experience of a new vehicle.

I sat down and did all of this years ago, when lease deals weren't as good as they are today, and financially there wasn't as much in at as many assume. Then factor in having a nice new car every 2 years and the total lack of hassle and I decided leasing was right for me in my circumstances.

It does only work with certain manufacturers, models, mileage requirements and option list 'wants' though IME. If you do 25k a year or like to tick a lot of boxes then leasing is unlikely to be for you.

[Devil2575]

twoblacklines said:

My main issue is that people like this friend say to me "You can't be doing very well in life owning that"

The point is you get judged on what car you drive by people who "own" a car that doesn't actually belong to them, it belongs to the finance company, its pretty ridiculous.

Do people really say st like that? I never discuss my finances with any of my mates, in fact I wouldn't dream of even bringing it up. I don't even know how much my mates earn.

Some people judge you but if you don't care it doesn't matter. Tossers are not in short supply so why waste time worrying about what they think?

Maybe people look at my 2003 diesel Focus and think I'm not doing very well but I don't care. I'm happy with my choices and have nothing to prove to anyone.

The question is did it bother you that your mate thought he was doing better than you?

[SWoll]

Devil2575 said:

twoblacklines said:

My main issue is that people like this friend say to me "You can't be doing very well in life owning that"

The point is you get judged on what car you drive by people who "own" a car that doesn't actually belong to them, it belongs to the finance company, its pretty ridiculous.

Do people really say st like that? I never discuss my finances with any of my mates, in fact I wouldn't dream of even bringing it up. I don't even know how much my mates earn.

Some people judge you but if you don't care it doesn't matter. Tossers are not in short supply so why waste time worrying about what they think?

Maybe people look at my 2003 diesel Focus and think I'm not doing very well but I don't care. I'm happy with my choices and have nothing to prove to anyone.

The question is did it bother you that your mate thought he was doing better than you?

The fact tat he started a thread on the subject pretty much answers that I'd have thought?