Anyone into cars but not credit?
Discussion
gizlaroc said:
Just looked at the above figures I mentioned.....
Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?
So £420 a month all in?
You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.
So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.
A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.
If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)
So around £335 a month to run it.
So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.
You're not playing the game. ;-)Just looked, cheapest new shape 318i sport on autotrader is £17k.
In another 3 years and another 30k miles I bet that is worth around £9k at best. So will lose £8k over that period.
So £220 a month in depreciation.
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
£30 a month in servicing and tyres?
So £420 a month all in?
You can lease a brand new one for £269 a month including deposit over 3 years.
The only real saving would probably be servicing, so maybe £20 a month?
£120 a month in fuel.
£50 a month in insurance.
So £459 a month.
So an extra £9 a week to be in a brand new one, which could be wiped out with one fault.
A Citreon C4 comes in at around £10-20 cheaper than the BMW, so I can see why people chose the BMW.
If you were to buy a 7 year old 318i you are looking at around £8-9k.
Let's say £8k, and you sell in 3 years for £4500 (which is the sort of price for a 10 year old one).
You have got £100 a month in depreciation.
£140 a month in fuel (older model is roughly 5mpg/15% less efficient)
£50 insurance.
£45 a month in servicing and upkeep on a 7-10 year old car (I think £1600 over 3 years is more than fair)
So around £335 a month to run it.
So a saving of £28 a week. Weighing it all up, many would consider the saving of £28 a week well worth the peace of mind. They know they have a new car with no warranty worries, breakdown cover, loan car is needed etc. sat their on the drive.
Kia Pro Ceed - £6400, 9000 miles on the clock, manufacturers warranty until 2020 - 2013 car. Sitting on autotrader now, there's bucket loads of them, you'd probably get a deal.
Just as much of a s
t box as a 318. Say it loses half its value in 3 years.
3200/36 = £88 a month.
Good on fuel.
Good on insurance.
In warranty for the whole 3 years, so don't worry about it going bang.
Your post illustrates the point: in the UK a reasonable start point for a snotter is a 318. The continentals are all driving Kias and paying sod all for them.
Am I the only one who likes older, used cars just because they have a personality?
I've had ex-managerial company cars before, and in traffic jams I look at where some bloke might have prodded at the door trim in boredom, or where there's a scuff on the seat from lugging something from perhaps B&Q, or odd things they spec'd, interesting anecdotes in the service history, etc.
I find I 'bond' better with older cars. This is a whole paradigm separate from costs and affordability. I used to love hunting for Jap bits in the scrappies in the 90's, discovering imports with extra bits and weird options (before the internet destroyed the element of car serendipity).
I've had ex-managerial company cars before, and in traffic jams I look at where some bloke might have prodded at the door trim in boredom, or where there's a scuff on the seat from lugging something from perhaps B&Q, or odd things they spec'd, interesting anecdotes in the service history, etc.
I find I 'bond' better with older cars. This is a whole paradigm separate from costs and affordability. I used to love hunting for Jap bits in the scrappies in the 90's, discovering imports with extra bits and weird options (before the internet destroyed the element of car serendipity).
rxe said:
You're not playing the game. ;-)
Kia Pro Ceed - £6400, 9000 miles on the clock, manufacturers warranty until 2020 - 2013 car. Sitting on autotrader now, there's bucket loads of them, you'd probably get a deal.
Just as much of a st box as a 318.
Say it loses half its value in 3 years.
3200/36 = £88 a month.
Good on fuel.
Good on insurance.
In warranty for the whole 3 years, so don't worry about it going bang.
Your post illustrates the point: in the UK a reasonable start point for a snotter is a 318. The continentals are all driving Kias and paying sod all for them.
As I remember it you showed a lot more passion for cars in your forum life on Alfaowner than you do here .i fear over there you would have your membership rescinded for even typing Kia let alone advocating one on the basis of fuelKia Pro Ceed - £6400, 9000 miles on the clock, manufacturers warranty until 2020 - 2013 car. Sitting on autotrader now, there's bucket loads of them, you'd probably get a deal.
Just as much of a s
t box as a 318. Say it loses half its value in 3 years.
3200/36 = £88 a month.
Good on fuel.
Good on insurance.
In warranty for the whole 3 years, so don't worry about it going bang.
Your post illustrates the point: in the UK a reasonable start point for a snotter is a 318. The continentals are all driving Kias and paying sod all for them.
Economy etc
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 23 October 19:16
rxe said:
Your post illustrates the point: in the UK a reasonable start point for a snotter is a 318. The continentals are all driving Kias and paying sod all for them.
I'm not sure where you live but in my neck of the woods there are loads of Vauxhalls, Fords, Kias etc. I don't know anyone who would regard a 318 as a snotter. I've often wondered whether some of the posters on PH live in another country because based on these threads everyone drives a leased Audi or BMW. Where I live there are loads of old, cheap cars on the road and I'm certainly not surrounded brand new German metal everytime I go out. cj2013 said:
Am I the only one who likes older, used cars just because they have a personality?
I've had ex-managerial company cars before, and in traffic jams I look at where some bloke might have prodded at the door trim in boredom, or where there's a scuff on the seat from lugging something from perhaps B&Q, or odd things they spec'd, interesting anecdotes in the service history, etc.
I find I 'bond' better with older cars. This is a whole paradigm separate from costs and affordability. I used to love hunting for Jap bits in the scrappies in the 90's, discovering imports with extra bits and weird options (before the internet destroyed the element of car serendipity).
I have zero interest in owning anything post 1990. I just like cars of the 60's to the late 80's and I guess it's partly my age? My current daily (a 1990 BMW 318is) probably owes me about £3k if I include the rust and paintwork I had done a couple of years back. It has been 100% reliable, cheap to run and is just good fun to drive. As it's a typical 80's 16v it needs to be revved to get the best from it, but that's half the fun. It doesn't have huge amounts of grip so (should I be alone on a quiet Cornish lane) I can get some oversteer at a relatively low (and safer?) speed. If I just want uneventful A to B transport it'll do that too. Another bonus is the size (why are modern BMW's so bloody big?) and it's just pleasing to look at. It's also going up in value, not down. I've had ex-managerial company cars before, and in traffic jams I look at where some bloke might have prodded at the door trim in boredom, or where there's a scuff on the seat from lugging something from perhaps B&Q, or odd things they spec'd, interesting anecdotes in the service history, etc.
I find I 'bond' better with older cars. This is a whole paradigm separate from costs and affordability. I used to love hunting for Jap bits in the scrappies in the 90's, discovering imports with extra bits and weird options (before the internet destroyed the element of car serendipity).
Edited by e21Mark on Sunday 23 October 20:36
daemon said:
RSK21 said:
FredClogs said:
People might sneer at me because I've got a slow rotting collection of leggy noughties cars (all of middling cop) but yet I sneer at them for being shallow and essentially vacuous souls whom spend their days worrying about payments rather than rust and exhausts falling off... And I'm sure that in turn attracts sneers and I reply with sneers of my own... It's sneers all round.
Sneers.
This.Sneers.
I simply do not understand it but PH at times seems to thrive on these two pathetically small minded points of view and these threads, despite the occasional outbreak of interesting debate, ultimately end up exacerbating things.
I've no beef with people driving older cars. One of ours is 12 years old, another is 15.
However the friction normally starts when people who have a car on finance or lease are described as stupid or - as just posted ' being vacuous human beings who spend their time worrying about how they are going to afford the next payment...
e21Mark said:
I have zero interest in owning anything post 1990. I just like cars of the 60's to the late 80's and I guess it's partly my age? My current daily (a 1990 BMW 318is) probably owes me about £3k if I include the rust and paintwork I had done a couple of years back. It has been 100% reliable, cheap to run and is just good fun to drive. As it's a typical 80's 16v it needs to be revved to get the best from it, but that's half the fun. It doesn't have huge amounts of grip so (should I be alone on a quiet Cornish lane) I can get some oversteer at a relatively low (and safer?) speed. If I just want uneventful A to B transport it'll do that too. Another bonus is the size (why are modern BMW's so bloody big?) and it's just pleasing to look at. It's also going up in value, not down.
E30 318is I assume? (as E36 '318is' wasn't until mid 90s?)I would agree, but I would extend my age range until the mid 90s. I loved cars of the 80's as I felt they were a bit more varied and interesting with the styling, and the 'special' models stood out more. Modern cars seem a bit of the same thing with a different badge (especially so with joint ventures like the 108/C1/Aygo, Fabia/Leon/Golf and the Twingo/ForFour)
cj2013 said:
e21Mark said:
I have zero interest in owning anything post 1990. I just like cars of the 60's to the late 80's and I guess it's partly my age? My current daily (a 1990 BMW 318is) probably owes me about £3k if I include the rust and paintwork I had done a couple of years back. It has been 100% reliable, cheap to run and is just good fun to drive. As it's a typical 80's 16v it needs to be revved to get the best from it, but that's half the fun. It doesn't have huge amounts of grip so (should I be alone on a quiet Cornish lane) I can get some oversteer at a relatively low (and safer?) speed. If I just want uneventful A to B transport it'll do that too. Another bonus is the size (why are modern BMW's so bloody big?) and it's just pleasing to look at. It's also going up in value, not down.
E30 318is I assume? (as E36 '318is' wasn't until mid 90s?)I would agree, but I would extend my age range until the mid 90s. I loved cars of the 80's as I felt they were a bit more varied and interesting with the styling, and the 'special' models stood out more. Modern cars seem a bit of the same thing with a different badge (especially so with joint ventures like the 108/C1/Aygo, Fabia/Leon/Golf and the Twingo/ForFour)
I have a pair of e30's though.
e21Mark said:
Yes. Mind you, am wanting an e36 saloon 318is in white if I can find one?
I have a pair of e30's though.
E30s are lovely. Problem with the E36, especially the 318is, is that they suddenly went out of fashion a few years back, and most of the non-M coupes ended up worth less than £500. Saw so many for sale on eBay for scrap value, but assumed that they were never going to be worth anything - alas, that's how classics are born!I have a pair of e30's though.
The only reason we should 'worry' about the amount of credit being used to finance cars is the giant steaming pile of turd people will be left in when the next inevitable recession takes place, and judging by how unstable the world is at the moment we might not have to wait too long.
When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
Rick1.8t said:
The only reason we should 'worry' about the amount of credit being used to finance cars is the giant steaming pile of turd people will be left in when the next inevitable recession takes place, and judging by how unstable the world is at the moment we might not have to wait too long.
When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
With a lease and PCP deal you do know at the start what is worst case scenario. The PCP is always protected by the GFMV. When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
There's so many people out there who are spending every penny they earn. There is no breathing space if something does happen. Every last aspect of the car is financed including the insurance policy. Some are even taking out insurance to cover their insurance policy excess as they wouldn't have the means to pay their excess.
The other bit is how many are leasing cars or taking out PCP deals and tuning the car with no care. They know the agreement they've signed, but they'll tune and rag the s
t out of the car as they know their ownership is short. I've read quite a few being found out and obviously not having the means to pay the finance off when requested. What was the news a few weeks back? 17m people have less than £100 savings. There's a lot of those people sitting with expensive cars outside the house.
I'm not against people using car finance, but it's the levels some people are taking it to. They must be under huge pressure at the end of every month to pay the bills. That can't be a nice feeling.
Is there any wonder stress and depression is going through the roof?
Rick1.8t said:
The only reason we should 'worry' about the amount of credit being used to finance cars is the giant steaming pile of turd people will be left in when the next inevitable recession takes place, and judging by how unstable the world is at the moment we might not have to wait too long.
It's a problem for the car manufacturers, not the customers. In 2009 we handed back a bmw worth £15000 tops instead of paying a £19000 residual.
Apparently it cost bmw hundreds of millions to sort it all out.
Rick1.8t said:
When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
Yes. We had to slum it in a prodrive subaru instead of a bmw as the deals were naff. Rick1.8t said:
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
Indeed. In the same way as there are a small minority of alcohol drinkers who go on to become alcoholics and some people who enjoy a nice meal go on to become morbidly obese."What was the news a few weeks back? 17m people have less than £100 savings. There's a lot of those people sitting with expensive cars outside the house. "
And there's that intimation again - people who have really nice cars can't really afford it
To be honest, the people I know who are on the poverty line don't have cars or don't have cars on finance.
The people I do knpw that i think have finance have been financing cars periodically for years so it seems to be little of a struggle for them.
And there's that intimation again - people who have really nice cars can't really afford it
To be honest, the people I know who are on the poverty line don't have cars or don't have cars on finance.
The people I do knpw that i think have finance have been financing cars periodically for years so it seems to be little of a struggle for them.
FredClogs said:
I never meant to start any friction or described people who lease cars as vacuous, just simply those that sneer whilst doing it as described by the op.
No probs. Genuinely - do people sneer at you because youve an 07 audi or is it your impression that maybe they do behind your back?
I've never come across that and I've owned some seriously crap cars over the years.
daemon said:
Rick1.8t said:
The only reason we should 'worry' about the amount of credit being used to finance cars is the giant steaming pile of turd people will be left in when the next inevitable recession takes place, and judging by how unstable the world is at the moment we might not have to wait too long.
It's a problem for the car manufacturers, not the customers. In 2009 we handed back a bmw worth £15000 tops instead of paying a £19000 residual.
Apparently it cost bmw hundreds of millions to sort it all out.
Rick1.8t said:
When the last recession took place personal lease and high value PCP deals were much rarer and often more expensive - I imagine there are plenty of people who PCP and lease who have enough financial sense to ride out such a situation but there are plenty (And I know quite a few) that spend all of what they earn and if the economy changes (rise in interest rates etc) would be in a bit of trouble.
Yes. We had to slum it in a prodrive subaru instead of a bmw as the deals were naff. Rick1.8t said:
The problem, as has been mentioned in this thread is that people with a very low level of financial sense have access to the same credit as those that are informed and sensible - Some are lured by the shiny and don't have little concern for its impact on their lives should anything go wrong.
Indeed. In the same way as there are a small minority of alcohol drinkers who go on to become alcoholics and some people who enjoy a nice meal go on to become morbidly obese.So you handed a car back and saved yourself some money, good for you, some people would hand it back and have no means to afford another one, no deposit for the next lease, not enough for another car etc. Think about it.
Many people are on this forum as educated and fairly wealthy people - after all its a forum about cars being an interest / hobby, not the cheapest past-time ever.
Cheap credit is dangled like a carrot in front of people that are not so well educated, not so financially minded, not completely aware of what will happen if things go wrong, they just want something nice like everybody else seems to have - They are not an extreme like the morbidly obese or alcoholics and are instead a large group of society, especially the young who have huge amounts of debt now compared to the past, helped along with cheap car credit and social pressure to drive something nice like all of their friends have.
Edited by Rick1.8t on Sunday 23 October 21:53
Rick1.8t said:
I really think some people need to pull their head out of their ass and understand how many people in this country live - I know the Subaru comment was a little tongue in cheek but there are many out there who could not dream of running such a car.
Many people are on this forum as educated and fairly wealthy people - after all its a forum about cars being an interest / hobby, not the cheapest past-time ever.
Cheap credit is dangled like a carrot in front of people that are not so well educated, not so financially minded, not completely aware of what will happen if things go wrong, they just want something nice like everybody else seems to have - They are not an extreme like the morbidly obese or alcoholics and are instead a large group of society, especially the young who have huge amounts of debt now compared to the past, helped along with cheap car credit and social pressure to drive something nice like all of their friends have.
You will never convince him.Many people are on this forum as educated and fairly wealthy people - after all its a forum about cars being an interest / hobby, not the cheapest past-time ever.
Cheap credit is dangled like a carrot in front of people that are not so well educated, not so financially minded, not completely aware of what will happen if things go wrong, they just want something nice like everybody else seems to have - They are not an extreme like the morbidly obese or alcoholics and are instead a large group of society, especially the young who have huge amounts of debt now compared to the past, helped along with cheap car credit and social pressure to drive something nice like all of their friends have.
The facts are there, but he won't listen.
okgo said:
You will never convince him.
The facts are there, but he won't listen.
Of what ?The facts are there, but he won't listen.
The guy has told contributors to this thread repeatedly that he has flexible approach to using credit and makes what seem to be decisions based on thought and his own reasoned assessment . I don't know him from Adam but he seems a reasoned and reasonable thinker.
What do you want him and those like him who see that there are numerous ways to structure one's life without personal financial Armageddon ensuing to admit to ?
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 23 October 22:14
Rick1.8t said:
I really think some people need to pull their head out of their ass and understand how many people in this country live - I know the Subaru comment was a little tongue in cheek but there are many out there who could not dream of running such a car.
Many people are on this forum as educated and fairly wealthy people - after all its a forum about cars being an interest / hobby, not the cheapest past-time ever.
Cheap credit is dangled like a carrot in front of people that are not so well educated, not so financially minded, not completely aware of what will happen if things go wrong, they just want something nice like everybody else seems to have - They are not an extreme like the morbidly obese or alcoholics and are instead a large group of society, especially the young who have huge amounts of debt now compared to the past, helped along with cheap car credit and social pressure to drive something nice like all of their friends have.
Cars are avail now on a lease or pcp for £99 a month.Many people are on this forum as educated and fairly wealthy people - after all its a forum about cars being an interest / hobby, not the cheapest past-time ever.
Cheap credit is dangled like a carrot in front of people that are not so well educated, not so financially minded, not completely aware of what will happen if things go wrong, they just want something nice like everybody else seems to have - They are not an extreme like the morbidly obese or alcoholics and are instead a large group of society, especially the young who have huge amounts of debt now compared to the past, helped along with cheap car credit and social pressure to drive something nice like all of their friends have.
Is that much different to running some old banger, paying out on ad hoc bills and then changing it every 18 months?
Yes granted in a perfect world we'd all save 25% of our net income but I would say the bulk of those hand wringing and going for the " think of the children" line aren't nearly as financially astute as they are letting on
And if there are people out there killing themselves to run run some white audi a4 tdi on a lease then with any luck they'll catch themselves on and not do it next time
My wife has a job in a call centre of maybe 1000 staff. Most arent on a fantastic wage. The car park isn't full of audis or bmws on lease - it's full of at best older cars or maybe the odd person running a new corsa on a pcp deal as it's an enabler to get them to work over maybe a big distance
Genuinely - if you know for a fact that a load of people where you work are killing themselves to pay a pyment on some euro box then fair enough, but sorry, I am just not seeing it.
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