Anyone into cars but not credit?

[berlintaxi]

Nanook said:

BigLion said:

I speak the truth, sorry not to have a sheep like mentality. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but it's still the truth.

Try to ask someone who has PCP for example of explain to you how it works - I bet they don't even understand the interest they are paying or the construct of the deal and how much it is truly costing them.

What truth?

We have a car on PCP. It's my wife's car. I'm not a big fan of financing things like that, so I bought my car outright. I know how much her car costs each month, and how many months we'll have it for. Who actually cares about anything else? I know exactly how much it'll cost us over the period, that's all that really matters.

[anonymous-user]

ChasW said:

Possible as an alarming number of posters forget the etiquette of discussion and debate. There's a distinct correlation between the facile responses and unecessary insults and the camp people align themselves to.

I think that's a biased view, it's not about camps because to me that implies for or against. I haven't seen a poster yet state that finance products are de facto the best way to buy a car. What I have seen is several people say that dependent on circumstances a financial product may be the optimum way to secure a new car. In return I have seen numerous attempts to either debunk this in its entirety (by using generic rather than specific examples), and in some cases a blanket assertion that car finance is dangerous and the preserve of fools.

It is beyond frustrating when people try to post a balanced view, repeatedly being clear that it is an issue of circumstances, situation and specific opportunities and not a one size fits all and others simply refuse to accept that and come out with what is frankly nonsense laced with personal prejudice.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th October 11:24

[julian64]

RSK21 said:

Do you really stand by those assertions?

If so how sweeping is the generalisation ? Anybody who buys a new car of any type and value ?

There are reasons to buy a new car but they are mostly regarding business, and even they have been greatly reduced over the last five years. The closest I ever got to renting a car was through the company, but even that didn't make a great deal of financial sense.

Buying a car new only makes sense if the business rents or owns it. I've never seen a sensible argument for a new car for a private buying unless the money lost actually means little to you and you like the idea of a new smell in your car. If that be the case good for you. I bought a new car just over two years ago just for this reason.

But the only way you can make the case for renting is as an alternative to the catastrophic depreciation of some new cars, so its rather a Hobson's choice. You can't make an argument for renting against a two year old, or three year old car. Which is why you'll not find companies doing it.

One last thought. If you really think renting on a new car works then have you ever wondered why someone like 'lings cars' thrives. They are effectively a middle man between you and the car dealer who is making a tidy profit. Do you think that profit comes from the dealer margin, or the part of the profit made on the finance arrangement? If you take that tidy profit out of the deal who is actually losing it?

[anonymous-user]

julian64 said:

There are reasons to buy a new car but they are mostly regarding business, and even they have been greatly reduced over the last five years. The closest I ever got to renting a car was through the company, but even that didn't make a great deal of financial sense.

Buying a car new only makes sense if the business rents or owns it. I've never seen a sensible argument for a new car for a private buying unless the money lost actually means little to you and you like the idea of a new smell in your car. If that be the case good for you. I bought a new car just over two years ago just for this reason.

But the only way you can make the case for renting is as an alternative to the catastrophic depreciation of some new cars, so its rather a Hobson's choice. You can't make an argument for renting against a two year old, or three year old car. Which is why you'll not find companies doing it.

One last thought. If you really think renting on a new car works then have you ever wondered why someone like 'lings cars' thrives. They are effectively a middle man between you and the car dealer who is making a tidy profit. Do you think that profit comes from the dealer margin, or the part of the profit made on the finance arrangement? If you take that tidy profit out of the deal who is actually losing it?

I don't think anybody has put forward their endorsement of leasing in their specific circumstances in terms that challenge any of what you say.

I am also certain that every poster on this thread is aware of how finance products underpin manufacturer and retailer profitability, it's at the very core of the new car business model.

I assume you are referring to lease in the purest sense as some people cannot grasp the difference between lease and pcp. I suspect that by volume there are at least as many used cars on pcp or HP in circulation as there are new.

Lastly you define sense in purely economic terms which takes away a whole range of other factors.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th October 11:06

[DoubleD]

DoubleD said:

BigLion said:

MrBarry123 said:

DoubleD said:

I would be interested to see where you got your facts from?

Quite.

My guess is that he is just massively jealous of the guys and girls who drive around in nice cars and therefore uses the justification that they can't actually afford said cars as a way to make himself feel better as either a) he can't afford them or b) that they can't possibly be as successful as him*.

*He's probably not very successful.

Ultimately there's a large number of people on here who don't like the idea that someone far younger than them can drive around in a car they couldn't possibly have obtained when they were that age. They hate that what once was their status symbol - the new BMW, Mercedes, Porsche etc. - has been hijacked by young ruffians and that they now cannot elevate themselves above these trainer wearing youths purely through their choice of automobile.

Of course my friend, I aspire to one day be just like you...

I'm just curious to know what studies you've got these facts from?

BigLion


I'm still wondering where you get your facts from?

[Devil2575]

BigLion said:

I speak the truth, sorry not to have a sheep like mentality. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but it's still the truth.

Try to ask someone who has PCP for example of explain to you how it works - I bet they don't even understand the interest they are paying or the construct of the deal and how much it is truly costing them.

No you don't. You speak your opinion that is all.

What you are saying is the equivalent of proclaiming that everyone who goes to the pub will become and alcoholic.

I know someone who has a Golf R on lease. I bet he knows exactly how it works.

My Brother leases all his cars and has done for about 15 years now. He gets a brand new one every three years. Again, I can asure you he knows exactly how it works and he is in a very secure financial position.

[CYMR0]

julian64 said:

One last thought. If you really think renting on a new car works then have you ever wondered why someone like 'lings cars' thrives. They are effectively a middle man between you and the car dealer who is making a tidy profit. Do you think that profit comes from the dealer margin, or the part of the profit made on the finance arrangement? If you take that tidy profit out of the deal who is actually losing it?

It can also be the manufacturer. Some leasing deals are appallingly bad value against buying. You can't make an argument for renting a two-year-old car versus buying a two-year-old, it's true. That's because the finance has to be paid for, and it is, even when you lease brand new.

However, the reason that leasing works is that it is a secondary market. I was looking at a special edition model of a car to lease recently (decided against it for other reasons).

A one-year-old example of this car sells for about £18k. At two years old and 20k, it's probably about £16k retail - maybe £14k trade? New list is £26k, the special edition brings that down to £23k and brokers would probably take £2k off that - so a good deal for a cash purchaser is £21k. The price invoiced to the customer on the dealer's finance system was £15k + VAT, so £18k. So by leasing the manufacturer was chucking £3k extra into the deal. Total lease cost was £5,400 for two years.

It's not cheap in absolute terms, but the manufacturer (and not the customer or the dealer) is funding the deal to get it down from what might have been an £8k PCP or £6k (at best) on a straight cash purchase.

So why doesn't the manufacturer sell all its cars at £18k? Because it wants to increase volume by an amount it can control, and still get people to walk off the street and buy smaller/cheaper/slower/worse equipped cars for £18k. If it prices all of this model at £18k, no one will buy anything else - and especially not the higher priced models with even more margin.

[nickfrog]

julian64 said:

You can't make an argument for renting against a two year old, or three year old car.

If you mean comparing leasing to cash on a 2-year old car I did exactly that recently - BTW, it sometimes works - it sometimes doesn't - binary thinking is the enemy.

nickfrog said:

ITP said:

You say no-one can come up with a better deal than 5k for 2 years in a diesel Tiguan. How about a 2 year old diesel Tiguan?

Fair comment as my thought process included precisely that comparison (great minds!).
I would expect a 2 year old Tiguan 2.0 TDI to drop £150/month on average for the next 4 years. But let’s call it £125.
Warranty at £1,250/48 = £26/month
3 MOTS = £3/month
Tax @£145 = £12/month
Servicing @£250+£175 = £9 /month
Tyres and brakes over 4 years £500 = £10/month
Opportunity cost @3% on say, £12k (the rate on my BTL mortgage) = £1,584 but a bit less as the lease also has a small opp cost so say £1,200 ie £25/month
Oh look, we optimistically get to £210/month total – I am paying £216 amortised for a high spec Math Edition 150 TDI taxed and serviced.
The cheapest 140 TDI within 100 miles of Sussex is up for £12,995 and is a S Tech
So, what does the £6 / month saving buy you ?
- A used car that has been farted in and will be 6 years old.
- A car that has no big screen satnav, no climate, no cruise, flat cloth seats, no front sensors etc etc
- A car that will require a few maintenance trips (brakes, tyres, servicing, MOTs)
- A car with a lesser warranty. If you do a quick gap analysis you’ll see that quite a few things are excluded from the insurance backed VW extended warranty. They happen to be things that tend to manifest themselves after 3/4 years like pressed in bushings.
As I said my deal wasn’t particularly good compared to those who got is at £4k before prices started creeping up. If anything I bought near the peak.
Lease is an ultra competitive market as it’s aimed at tight gits like me. There is ALWAYS similar deals around BUT it might not be on a Tiguan, it might be on a Kadjar, RAV4, Kuga, Tuscon, Sportage, whatever. For my family needs, they’re the same car. I see my car as a fridge on wheels. I have no problems with anyone being specific about what car they want and/or needing to think they are saving £6/month. Lease is probably not for them.
Btw, Daemon will confirm that I might have written the exact same words as you a few years ago (but in an even more condescending tone ;-)) and then I pragmatically looked at it and integrated all the relevant parameters, not just the convenient ones.

[pmanson]

I've been following this thread from afar but to add a comment if I can.

Does the increase in 'credit' being used for cars correlate with a decrease in the use of company cars?

[tuffer]

pmanson said:

I've been following this thread from afar but to add a comment if I can.

Does the increase in 'credit' being used for cars correlate with a decrease in the use of company cars?

I do not have any Stats but I have always had a "car allowance" rather than a "company car", it may be the case the the former is now more popular than the latter. I do not currently have either but claim mileage if I do need to travel.

[twoblacklines]

RSK21 said:

so you would scrap the welfare state ?

Only for people who are not disabled and have never paid in.

If you are not disabled and have paid £0.00 in taxes (vat, road license etc doesn't count) then why should you be able to spend your whole life TAKING from those that do?

Then a severe clampdown on both people who are claiming disability benefit when they aren't disabled, and more importantly, a severe restructure of disability benefit for those who are disabled and get nothing. Getting rid of privatisation in that sector would work well, because as it stands companies like ATOS were giving quadrapligiecs (people with no arms or legs) 0 points saying they could reach and hold items when they have no arms, because presumably any money they save not giving goes into the executive bonus pool.

This would save us a lot of money, money that could be spent where it needs spending.

[DoubleD]

swerni said:

DoubleD said:

DoubleD said:

BigLion said:

MrBarry123 said:

DoubleD said:

I would be interested to see where you got your facts from?

Quite.

My guess is that he is just massively jealous of the guys and girls who drive around in nice cars and therefore uses the justification that they can't actually afford said cars as a way to make himself feel better as either a) he can't afford them or b) that they can't possibly be as successful as him*.

*He's probably not very successful.

Ultimately there's a large number of people on here who don't like the idea that someone far younger than them can drive around in a car they couldn't possibly have obtained when they were that age. They hate that what once was their status symbol - the new BMW, Mercedes, Porsche etc. - has been hijacked by young ruffians and that they now cannot elevate themselves above these trainer wearing youths purely through their choice of automobile.

Of course my friend, I aspire to one day be just like you...

I'm just curious to know what studies you've got these facts from?

BigLion


I'm still wondering where you get your facts from?

His arse?

I think that you are probably correct. He speaks with such authority on the subject that I presumed that he had read a study on it, rather than just voicing an opinion.

[gizlaroc]

BigLion said:

I speak the truth, sorry not to have a sheep like mentality. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but it's still the truth.

Try to ask someone who has PCP for example of explain to you how it works - I bet they don't even understand the interest they are paying or the construct of the deal and how much it is truly costing them.

How is your insular and narrow minded way of thinking any less sheep like that the people you are accusing of being sheep?

You are simply following the crowd who refuse point blank to see that leasing can be better than buying.


Financially PCP I agree is never going to be cheaper than buying (or it is very rare) but leasing can often be far cheaper.


But unless you know every single in and out of someones finances and life you can not possibly give such sweeping statements. It just makes you sound a bit silly.

[twoblacklines]

gizlaroc said:

How is your insular and narrow minded way of thinking any less sheep like that the people you are accusing of being sheep?

You are simply following the crowd who refuse point blank to see that leasing can be better than buying.


Financially PCP I agree is never going to be cheaper than buying (or it is very rare) but leasing can often be far cheaper.


But unless you know every single in and out of someones finances and life you can not possibly give such sweeping statements. It just makes you sound a bit silly.

Ironic because you don't know the intimate details of the people you are defending, instead you are sweeping them all into one big group of clever, well informed, responsible individuals, which they clearly aren't because as I said before, there are a multitude of car repo agencies, which would not exist if everyone who "owned" a car on finance were clever, well informed and responsible.

[daemon]

twoblacklines said:

gizlaroc said:

How is your insular and narrow minded way of thinking any less sheep like that the people you are accusing of being sheep?

You are simply following the crowd who refuse point blank to see that leasing can be better than buying.


Financially PCP I agree is never going to be cheaper than buying (or it is very rare) but leasing can often be far cheaper.


But unless you know every single in and out of someones finances and life you can not possibly give such sweeping statements. It just makes you sound a bit silly.

Ironic because you don't know the intimate details of the people you are defending, instead you are sweeping them all into one big group of clever, well informed, responsible individuals, which they clearly aren't because as I said before, there are a multitude of car repo agencies, which would not exist if everyone who "owned" a car on finance were clever, well informed and responsible.

No one is saying "everyone" who finances or leases has the financial capability to do so or that "everyone" fully understands the implications, however the vast majority do.

There will always be a very small minority of people who want something thats beyond their means and havent the sense not to - this even happens with cash purchases - how many times do you hear of / read of people who have come in to significant lump sums through inheritance and otherwise who piss it up the wall in no time at all. Unfortunately sometimes finance facilitates that minority when it shouldnt.

However that doesnt make all finance / leases bad products.

As has been said your argument is the same as saying that everyone who goes into a pub becomes an alcoholic. My argument is the same as saying alcohol is fine in moderation.

I've used PCP deals before in the past and i've used cash in the past. When it comes to my next significant purchase, i'll review whats best for me and my financial circumstances at that time - whether that be cash, PCP, lease, HP or a loan. I would suggest people are open minded as to what might be the best option for them or others, rather than just "assume" - after all a cash purchased car will still depreciate, so its not like its a cast iron investment.

And where are all these repo agencies by the way? The amount of financed cars repossessed are a minute percentage of those financed successfully.

Edited by daemon on Tuesday 25th October 17:52

[gizlaroc]

twoblacklines said:

Ironic because you don't know the intimate details of the people you are defending, instead you are sweeping them all into one big group of clever, well informed, responsible individuals, which they clearly aren't because as I said before, there are a multitude of car repo agencies, which would not exist if everyone who "owned" a car on finance were clever, well informed and responsible.

No I'm not.

How did you come to that conclusion?


I said....

"How is your insular and narrow minded way of thinking any less sheep like that the people you are accusing of being sheep?

You are simply following the crowd who refuse point blank to see that leasing can be better than buying.


Financially PCP I agree is never going to be cheaper than buying (or it is very rare) but leasing can often be far cheaper.


But unless you know every single in and out of someones finances and life you can not possibly give such sweeping statements. It just makes you sound a bit silly."


I am saying exactly the opposite.

Edited by gizlaroc on Tuesday 25th October 17:53

[daemon]

gizlaroc said:

twoblacklines said:

Ironic because you don't know the intimate details of the people you are defending, instead you are sweeping them all into one big group of clever, well informed, responsible individuals, which they clearly aren't because as I said before, there are a multitude of car repo agencies, which would not exist if everyone who "owned" a car on finance were clever, well informed and responsible.

No I'm not.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Because hes thrashing about and venting on here most likely because some neighbour / sibling / relative has got themselves a car he deems they arent in the financial position to be worthy of driving....

How else would he have such a large chip on his shoulder?

[gizlaroc]

That is the conclusion I am coming to as well.


I don't lease my cars, but the only reason is I don't want to be tied into something for 2 years, I tend to get bored at around 6-12 months.
So I make the decision to buy them, even though it costs me considerably more to that more often than not.

But I don't think it is a financially sensible option to ignore lease options.

[gizlaroc]

I should add I have used finance with a balloon to be in a car newer than I could afford to buy with cash, because it meant it was on a better part of the depreciation curve and thus cost me less than buying the older car cash.

I have done that a few times now, but don't anymore as it is gambling and you have to constantly watch prices and then sell when you can see it dropping. It all gets a bit of a chore.

[daemon]

gizlaroc said:

That is the conclusion I am coming to as well.


I don't lease my cars, but the only reason is I don't want to be tied into something for 2 years, I tend to get bored at around 6-12 months.
So I make the decision to buy them, even though it costs me considerably more to that more often than not.

But I don't think it is a financially sensible option to ignore lease options.

+1

I dont lease for similar reasons, however i can see that for a lot of people it makes sense.