Where have all the good Civic Type R's gone?
Discussion
If the brakes on the FN2 are crap, then the ones on the EP3 are also crap as they are basically the same.
Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
MRobbins1987 said:
No it's not, let's be clear. The only people who claim the fn2 is as good/better than the ep3 are the ricers that own them.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
Paul671 said:
What about a Megane R26? I just sold my EP3, it was disappointing compared to either Integra, it's not hardcore enough to compare to the best type R's and yet too hardcore to be a nicer daily than an FN2. A Megane might be a better bet?
Renault's just don't do it for me. I've had a go in a Clio 182, the driving position was horrible for someone my height and it just felt cheap. Vyse said:
If the brakes on the FN2 are crap, then the ones on the EP3 are also crap as they are basically the same.
Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
Does weight not play a considerable part in braking? The fn2 weighs a fair chunk more than an ep3.Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
MRobbins1987 said:
No it's not, let's be clear. The only people who claim the fn2 is as good/better than the ep3 are the ricers that own them.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
In comparison to other hot hatches I've owned/driven the fn2 lacks any real steering feel.
Mine didn't have a frsu, im sure it would make a small difference, but it still wouldn't turn in like a car with independent rear suspension that's carrying less weight.
MRobbins1987 said:
Vyse said:
If the brakes on the FN2 are crap, then the ones on the EP3 are also crap as they are basically the same.
Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
Does weight not play a considerable part in braking? The fn2 weighs a fair chunk more than an ep3.Steering lacking any feeling, haha don't make me laugh. The EP3 pre facelift was notorious for horrible feedback through the wheel, they fixed it a little with the facelift but even that has worse feel than the FN2.
Am going to assume the FN2 that you drove didn't have the geo on the left rear sorted as you keep talking about under steer.
MRobbins1987 said:
No it's not, let's be clear. The only people who claim the fn2 is as good/better than the ep3 are the ricers that own them.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
Worse power to weight ratio, check.
Crap ride, check.
Crap brakes, check.
Steering lacking any sort of feel, check.
Understeer at the wiff of a corner, check.
The only thing that a geo set up will help with is understeer, the rest is still going to be useless.
In comparison to other hot hatches I've owned/driven the fn2 lacks any real steering feel.
Mine didn't have a frsu, im sure it would make a small difference, but it still wouldn't turn in like a car with independent rear suspension that's carrying less weight.
Ultimately the EP3 IMO is slightly better overall for fun, due to its smaller size and a tad less weight.
BUT it is close between the two.
-With a good geo setup they both handle very well. Good enough for the road anyway. The FN2 rear suspension isn't as good, but can't say I notice it or care with fast road driving. Under steer can be reduced if required, I don't mind some anyway.
-Ride is poor on the FN2 but I have Tein springs which improve it slightly.
-Braking is similar on both models.
-Steering widely noted to feel a little better on FN2.
-FN2 chassis stiffer.
-FN2 worse power to weight, only 70kg aprox, but has 5.06 final drive instead of 4.7, so makes up the acceleration there.
By the way the practicality of the FN2 is very useful.
I would put them on the same level, both having pros and cons.
I agree with posters suggesting the negatives on the FN2 vs EP3 are similar to the EP3 vs EK9 etc. Unconscious bias there.
On the plus side the K20 engine is more flexible and tuneable.
Baz2000 said:
Renault's just don't do it for me. I've had a go in a Clio 182, the driving position was horrible for someone my height and it just felt cheap.
I'm not a Renault person either, just thought it might fit the bill. I've driven a few 172's and hated the driving position too, not driven the Megane though.
As an ex DC2 and FN2 owner who has test driven an EP3 also, I have to say I prefer the FN2 over the EP3 by a considerable margin. It was a hoot to drive, especially with the Hondata tuning box, and I found the steering offered more feedback and feel than the EP3, and was more comfortable and much better looking. I struggle to see any downsides over the EP3. They both lag well behind the DC2 though TBH.
Baz2000 said:
Heh.I bought my 55 Plate Premier back in 2008 for 8.5k and it had 28k on the clock.
DC5's are holding there value rather well, there barely any cheaper now than 5 years ago.
The FN2 looks a good buy, the interior is far nicer than the EP3.
TameRacingDriver said:
As an ex DC2 and FN2 owner who has test driven an EP3 also, I have to say I prefer the FN2 over the EP3 by a considerable margin. It was a hoot to drive, especially with the Hondata tuning box, and I found the steering offered more feedback and feel than the EP3, and was more comfortable and much better looking. I struggle to see any downsides over the EP3. They both lag well behind the DC2 though TBH.
You're the chap who had the Primera GT and the E36 328i aren't you? No wonder I agree with you. 
Both the FN2 and EP3 are electric steering aren't they? Same front suspension too? I always thought they felt about the same, i.e not a lot at all. Good for parking though.
Baz2000 said:
I did look at all the options before deciding on a EP3. Ideally I would love a DC2 or DC5. The thing that puts me off a DC2 is rust, I have spent far too much time on previous cars dealing/worrying with rust. This needs to be my everyday car. DC5's are just too expensive.
I agree it is much more easy to find a good FN2 and no doubt they are very capable cars, I just irrationally don't like them, the styling, dash etc I just don't like them, I prefer the basicness of the EP3 if that makes sense.
I would definitely consider a Accord Type R but from what I can see these are even harder to find a good one and are getting on a bit now and from what I have read age brings with it problems on these, weak gearboxes, rust etc.
Where abouts are you based? I need to sell my grey EP3 Premier in the near future due to work reasons. It doesn't have the correct seats, seems they were replaced by pre-face lift ones.I agree it is much more easy to find a good FN2 and no doubt they are very capable cars, I just irrationally don't like them, the styling, dash etc I just don't like them, I prefer the basicness of the EP3 if that makes sense.
I would definitely consider a Accord Type R but from what I can see these are even harder to find a good one and are getting on a bit now and from what I have read age brings with it problems on these, weak gearboxes, rust etc.
CaptainSlow said:
Where abouts are you based? I need to sell my grey EP3 Premier in the near future due to work reasons. It doesn't have the correct seats, seems they were replaced by pre-face lift ones.
South coast. How come the seats were replace? The Recaros are one of the biggest appeals of the Premier edition. I bought a brand new EP3 in 2002. Kept it for three and a half years, put 60k miles on it. Loved it. Loved the engine, loved the gearshift. Had just come from a series of Peugeots, so liked the throttle sensitive handling, liked the brakes, the seats, the simple functional interior, the materials on the touch points, the practicality and ability to pretend to be a van with the seats down. Didn't like the ride quality, especially in the back. Didn't like the steering, though it stopped bothering me within a few days. Liked the performance, it felt plenty quick enough.
Earlier this year, my sister bought one of similar vintage to mine, so I was very interested to drive it.
First thing - since the Civic, I've had an RX-8, 350Z and currently have an Elise 111R, Saab 9-5 Aero and a Z4M. The Lotus and BMW are similar power delivery with much more performance and the Saab is similar outright performance with huge mid range. So, no, it no longer felt fast. Just acclimation. But, even at high mileage, it still had a lovely engine, a fantastic gearbox and the interior felt solid. The steering felt odd - not numb like mine was, just odd. Suspect a geo and some proper tyres would transform it.
I think they still have a lot going for them. They're relatively light, simple, driver focused interior, revvy na engine, great gearbox, playful handling, good brakes - most of my hot hatch boxes ticked.
Earlier this year, my sister bought one of similar vintage to mine, so I was very interested to drive it.
First thing - since the Civic, I've had an RX-8, 350Z and currently have an Elise 111R, Saab 9-5 Aero and a Z4M. The Lotus and BMW are similar power delivery with much more performance and the Saab is similar outright performance with huge mid range. So, no, it no longer felt fast. Just acclimation. But, even at high mileage, it still had a lovely engine, a fantastic gearbox and the interior felt solid. The steering felt odd - not numb like mine was, just odd. Suspect a geo and some proper tyres would transform it.
I think they still have a lot going for them. They're relatively light, simple, driver focused interior, revvy na engine, great gearbox, playful handling, good brakes - most of my hot hatch boxes ticked.
Ah, the Type R debate ...
I've owned both EP3 and FN2.
The only good thing about the FN2 is the seats - very comfortable and supportive.
The rest of it you can throw in the bin; the worst riding car I have ever owned - absolutely dire (I'm not sure if they fitted these cars with springs and shocks or just fixed the wheels to blocks of concrete). Handling was ok but you won't see which way a Renaultsport Clio or Megane went.
Interior is very Atari/ Sinclair ZX (that means it's s
te) and the plastics are quite low rent.
I also found the brakes crap - suffering from brake fade and judder after any attempt at spirited driving.
Rear visibility is bad - not only due to the spoiler but also the size/ shape of the rear screen.
The FN2 is an ugly car in my opinion - viewed from some angles from the rear it looks like a peanut.
It is also very wide - it won't fit through a standard garage door without folding the mirrors in.
Mine lasted 6 months and I got rid - I couldn't live with it.
The EP3 feels like a car from a different era - much more like a proper old school hot hatch. It feels much smaller and agile than the FN2 which feels big and heavy.
The EP3 has its faults but you can forgive most of them. You can't with an FN2.
I've owned both EP3 and FN2.
The only good thing about the FN2 is the seats - very comfortable and supportive.
The rest of it you can throw in the bin; the worst riding car I have ever owned - absolutely dire (I'm not sure if they fitted these cars with springs and shocks or just fixed the wheels to blocks of concrete). Handling was ok but you won't see which way a Renaultsport Clio or Megane went.
Interior is very Atari/ Sinclair ZX (that means it's s
te) and the plastics are quite low rent.I also found the brakes crap - suffering from brake fade and judder after any attempt at spirited driving.
Rear visibility is bad - not only due to the spoiler but also the size/ shape of the rear screen.
The FN2 is an ugly car in my opinion - viewed from some angles from the rear it looks like a peanut.
It is also very wide - it won't fit through a standard garage door without folding the mirrors in.
Mine lasted 6 months and I got rid - I couldn't live with it.
The EP3 feels like a car from a different era - much more like a proper old school hot hatch. It feels much smaller and agile than the FN2 which feels big and heavy.
The EP3 has its faults but you can forgive most of them. You can't with an FN2.
Edited by Red 4 on Thursday 27th October 02:19
Red 4 said:
Ah, the Type R debate ...
I've owned both EP3 and FN2.
The only good thing about the FN2 is the seats - very comfortable and supportive.
The rest of it you can throw in the bin; the worst riding car I have ever owned - absolutely dire (I'm not sure if they fitted these cars with springs and shocks or just fixed the wheels to blocks of concrete). Handling was ok but you won't see which way a Renaultsport Clio or Megane went.
Interior is very Atari/ Sinclair ZX (that means it's ste) and the plastics are quite low rent.
I also found the brakes crap - suffering from brake fade and judder after any attempt at spirited driving.
Rear visibility is bad - not only due to the spoiler but also the size/ shape of the rear screen.
The FN2 is an ugly car in my opinion - viewed from some angles from the rear it looks like a peanut.
It is also very wide - it won't fit through a standard garage door without folding the mirrors in.
Mine lasted 6 months and I got rid - I couldn't live with it.
The EP3 feels like a car from a different era - much more like a proper old school hot hatch. It feels much smaller and agile than the FN2 which feels big and heavy.
The EP3 has its faults but you can forgive most of them. You can't with an FN2.
I'm always amazed by how marmite responses to the FN2 are.I've owned both EP3 and FN2.
The only good thing about the FN2 is the seats - very comfortable and supportive.
The rest of it you can throw in the bin; the worst riding car I have ever owned - absolutely dire (I'm not sure if they fitted these cars with springs and shocks or just fixed the wheels to blocks of concrete). Handling was ok but you won't see which way a Renaultsport Clio or Megane went.
Interior is very Atari/ Sinclair ZX (that means it's s
te) and the plastics are quite low rent.I also found the brakes crap - suffering from brake fade and judder after any attempt at spirited driving.
Rear visibility is bad - not only due to the spoiler but also the size/ shape of the rear screen.
The FN2 is an ugly car in my opinion - viewed from some angles from the rear it looks like a peanut.
It is also very wide - it won't fit through a standard garage door without folding the mirrors in.
Mine lasted 6 months and I got rid - I couldn't live with it.
The EP3 feels like a car from a different era - much more like a proper old school hot hatch. It feels much smaller and agile than the FN2 which feels big and heavy.
The EP3 has its faults but you can forgive most of them. You can't with an FN2.
"Wouldn't see which way a Renault Sport went". I've had 2x RS Clios, a 172 and a 182. They were certainly capable of decent speeds on the back roads, but the FN2 was pretty damn good as well, I was always surprised just how HARD I could push it and it just kept obeying my commands. Therefore, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Interior - way better than the EP3.
Brakes - never had a problem. Didn't take it on track admittedly. Hardly ever had to rely on the brakes too much anyway (see paragraph #1)
Rear visibility - no arguments there
Too wide - really?! I doubt its any wider than a Focus.
I'm afraid I find many of the arguments against the FN2 sensationalist, emotive b
ks frankly. It's nowhere near as bad as some make out, just like the EP3 is nowhere near as good as some like to suggest!I have a 182 cup at the moment it covers ground on a bumpy b road at a pace that the fn2 could only dream of, makes me giggle too. The fn2 is too stiff for uk roads and left me frustrated as it struggled putting power down as the tyres were skipping over the surface and the front end always tried to push wide unless you gave it a dollop of left foot brake, not exactly confidence inspiring.
TameRacingDriver said:
I'm always amazed by how marmite responses to the FN2 are.
"Wouldn't see which way a Renault Sport went". I've had 2x RS Clios, a 172 and a 182. They were certainly capable of decent speeds on the back roads, but the FN2 was pretty damn good as well, I was always surprised just how HARD I could push it and it just kept obeying my commands. Therefore, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Too wide - really?! I doubt its any wider than a Focus.
I'm afraid I find many of the arguments against the FN2 sensationalist, emotive bks frankly. It's nowhere near as bad as some make out, just like the EP3 is nowhere near as good as some like to suggest!
I owned a Renaultsport Clio RS200 a few cars after I owned the FN2."Wouldn't see which way a Renault Sport went". I've had 2x RS Clios, a 172 and a 182. They were certainly capable of decent speeds on the back roads, but the FN2 was pretty damn good as well, I was always surprised just how HARD I could push it and it just kept obeying my commands. Therefore, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Too wide - really?! I doubt its any wider than a Focus.
I'm afraid I find many of the arguments against the FN2 sensationalist, emotive b
ks frankly. It's nowhere near as bad as some make out, just like the EP3 is nowhere near as good as some like to suggest!The difference in handling was vast - the Clio actually had a comedy value about it; it was one of the best handling cars I have owned (unlike the Civic which would try and spit you onto the other side of the road if you hit a bump mid-corner - like I said the suspension is simply harsh and doesn't do it's job.
I've owned a Ford Focus ST too - the Civic is wider (or maybe it just has big mirrors).
I also much preferred the Focus - bags more character and quicker (after a plug and play re-map).
I'm not being sensationalist here - I just don't like the FN2.
I've owned many cars. The Civic was one of the worst (reliablity aside).
It should never have been marketed as a Type R in my opinion.
And they should have sorted the suspension - not gone backwards.
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