Japanese Gentlemens Agreements, German Power battles ?

[Leins]

rampageturke said:

alpina, bmw, AMG, and mercedes at the time were way above the name of vauxhall, who were seen as a manufacturer of small stboxes that everyone knew about

Agreed, it really didn't have the same brand cachet, but there was still the likes of the Carlton GSi out on the roads to project the "sporting saloon" image

SuperchargedVR6 said:

Ah, I forgot about ze Germans.

Maybe because the Carlton being British, it fired up the usual health & safety nut bags into a frenzy.

Yes, I think that was a big part of it. I suspect the Omega equivalent didn't cause quite the same commotion over in Bonn at the time

[J4CKO]

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

It is still way more power than the average company driver had back in the 90s for example, even a 2 litre (for the chosen few) generally had not much more than 120 bhp and 120 lb/ft, at a much higher rpm as well, 300 lb/ft is plenty to unstick the rear if you want to, and then people stick cheapo tyres on as well.

[kambites]

J4CKO said:

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

It is still way more power than the average company driver had back in the 90s for example, even a 2 litre (for the chosen few) generally had not much more than 120 bhp and 120 lb/ft, at a much higher rpm as well, 300 lb/ft is plenty to unstick the rear if you want to, and then people stick cheapo tyres on as well.

Hmm, the 2.0 8v Cavalier in 1990 had 121bhp and weighed 1060kg so whilst yes it was lower, it was hardly in a different league. As you say the difference in low-rev torque to weight ratio is rather greater, though. As you point out, that wasn't the entry level car.

One question I've occasionally pondered is exactly what the difference in coefficient of friction (say on a slightly wet road) between a good 2016 tyre is compared to a good 1990 tyre. Are they 5% better? 10%? 25%?

[J4CKO]

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

It is still way more power than the average company driver had back in the 90s for example, even a 2 litre (for the chosen few) generally had not much more than 120 bhp and 120 lb/ft, at a much higher rpm as well, 300 lb/ft is plenty to unstick the rear if you want to, and then people stick cheapo tyres on as well.

Hmm, the 2.0 8v Cavalier in 1990 had 121bhp and weighed 1060kg so whilst yes it was lower, it was hardly in a different league. As you say the difference in low-rev torque to weight ratio is rather greater, though.

I used to drive my bosses 1.8i MK2 Cavalier, felt like a beast after my Mk 1 1.6 GT Capri and that used to scrabble all over the place with 110 bhp or so with RWD I may have binned it, I had some pretty lairy moments in the Capri !

that is more my stupidity and lack of skill but I would imagine 300 lb/ft coming in at low rpm in the wet might be a bad combination without ESP, ESP must have saved a lot of moments and crashes, a lot of the accidents I have known friends and family have would probably have been a non event had it been fitted back then, not sure it would have helped when I reversed our Galaxy into a neighbours visitors Megane though



Tyres are better now but people like to redress that with cheapo Chinese toss, that said, even back then the decent brands were pretty good.

[Leins]

J4CKO said:

Tyres are better now but people like to redress that with cheapo Chinese toss, that said, even back then the decent brands were pretty good.

I don't think I'd have fancied driving my old E34 M5 in the wet with RFTs either though

[phumy]

For those not sure of the car here is mine I bought a couple of weeks ago:

[aeropilot]

archie456 said:

J4CKO said:

What changed?

I think electronics and tyres have made driving cars much easier.

The Lotus Carlton with 'only' 375bhp has a power-to-weight ratio that is 80% of that of the F10 M5. I think that puts it into perspective.

The power-to-weight ration of my old Sunbeam-Lotus is about 90% of that of my BMW 135i.....but

I was 'relatively comfortable' about giving the old Sunbeam-Lotus its head on the public road, even though it didn't have a single electronic 'nanny control'.....and yet I can't say the same about the 135i, even with all the nanny controls left on!
The 135i is in a different century in terms of it's speed potential, even though the power-to-weight ratio is only a relatively small jump up from the Sunbeam....such is the tech advances in tyres, aero, chassis, transmission, and engine between the two.

[Leins]

phumy said:

For those not sure of the car here is mine I bought a couple of weeks ago:

Lovely! Best of luck with it

Nice combination with an RS2 in particular

[phumy]

Leins said:

phumy said:

For those not sure of the car here is mine I bought a couple of weeks ago:

Lovely! Best of luck with it

Nice combination with an RS2 in particular

Best of both worlds, one for shopping and one for going to the dump, both at warp speed

[Leins]

[Pickled]

I'd say with all the electronics and advances in tyres in modern cars that when things do go wrong, they happen at a lot higher speeds and when you've reached that point no amount of electronics can defy the laws of physics. Whereas in the LC era limits were reached a lot easier, and the Carlton was quite a forgiving chassis to start with, in fact it was probably easier for the average driver to hustle a LC than a 2wd Cossie with a lot less power.

[xRIEx]

J4CKO said:

Remember when the Lotus Carlton came out with 375 bhp and the press went into a frenzy about the irresponsibility of releasing a car with such power to the public, this was a time when 150 bhp caused wonderment, now that 375 bhp is now a fairly fiesty hatchback output, the top German stuff now is circa 600 bhp, yet not a peep from the press ?

What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?

Probably, because after all the massive hype and outrage around the LC, a grand total of nothing bad happened: drivers didn't end up backwards through hedges or killing themselves (any more than usual), children weren't run down and made it safely to school and the world didn't end. The media moved on to something else to get a frothing-at-the-mouth frenzy over, because they realised they'd look ridiculous (again) if they tried the same again.

[98elise]

SuperchargedVR6 said:

375hp wasn't the norm back then. It was like a bunch of 130-150hp hot hatches, a 200-250hp saloon here and there then bam.....a 375hp weapon.

Thats how I remember it...it would be like ford doing a 1000bhp mondeo today.

Suddenly all hot hatches and fast saloons looked pathetic along side the Carlton

[Kolbenkopp]

Leins said:

Yes, I think that was a big part of it. I suspect the Omega equivalent didn't cause quite the same commotion over in Bonn at the time

Yup, no fuss about the performance, rather admiration. And later on some press bhing about the reliability. Pretty much what you'd expect . At least that is what I recall. Think the "irresponsible" stigma was a UK only phenomenon.

Edit: I'm 100 % sure we would not see >300 PS in a fairly affordable hatch if it wasn't for ESP and handling tuned more for safety than agility. Press and certain colours of politics would be all over people hurting themselves in something deemed too powerful by the average Joe.

It's also so easy to market with power and acceleration stats, much easier than selling intangibles such as steering feel.

Edited by Kolbenkopp on Thursday 27th October 19:54

[s m]

phumy said:

For those not sure of the car here is mine I bought a couple of weeks ago:

Looks seriously nice

[S0 What]

J4CKO said:

I used to drive my bosses 1.8i MK2 Cavalier, felt like a beast after my Mk 1 1.6 GT Capri and that used to scrabble all over the place with 110 bhp or so with RWD I may have binned it, I had some pretty lairy moments in the Capri !

Mk1 capri GT had 88 bhp (standard), just felt like more because of the dire rear end at least the LC had coil springs on the rear