Japanese Gentlemens Agreements, German Power battles ?

Japanese Gentlemens Agreements, German Power battles ?

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J4CKO

Original Poster:

41,287 posts

199 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
Remember when the Lotus Carlton came out with 375 bhp and the press went into a frenzy about the irresponsibility of releasing a car with such power to the public, this was a time when 150 bhp caused wonderment, now that 375 bhp is now a fairly fiesty hatchback output, the top German stuff now is circa 600 bhp, yet not a peep from the press ?

What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?

When did the Japanese abandon their agreements and why ?

Where is this going, surely 600 bhp in a medium sized saloon is enough or is 700 bhp round the corner ? (already here with a simple remap I guess)


Meridius

1,608 posts

151 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
Theres a lot of hype and id imagine sales based purely off numbers.

And im sure the press and consumer would be quick to point the finger if one manufacturers next model was less powerful and slower than the last one, so they have to keep bumping it up.

J4x4K

235 posts

106 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
The thing with the Carlton was just the usual. Just politicians or journalists looking for an agenda.

But yes, today any idiot can drive a car close to 200mp/h on the motorway and not kill himself or others. Computer aids do all the heavy lifting. Unless you purposely do something stupid you won't lose control of the car. I know better not to underestimate idiots. But still. 375hp in 1989 was way, way more dangerous than 700bhp is today.

But the reason you don't hear much complain about it is probably just luck some politician or journalist is not looking for an angle to make a name for himself. biggrin

S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
IIRC it wasn't the power that caused the furor but the fact GM renaged on the gentlemans agreement to cap top speeds at 155MPH, the LC had no speed limiter and did 178MPH

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
...but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?
ESP is, of course, a legal requirement on everything now.

But you can turn it off. And the drive to the front wheels.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/new-...

Baldchap

7,510 posts

91 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
We still have the 186mph limit 'agreed' by Japanese manufacturers on bikes. Frankly, having done an indicated 190mph on a ZZR1100 (over-read aplenty, I'd imagine), I say it's quick enough for the public road.

We are slowly seeing electronic nannys popping up but bikes are still a place where you want to avoid fking it up if you can.

J4x4K

235 posts

106 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
ESP is, of course, a legal requirement on everything now.

But you can turn it off. And the drive to the front wheels.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/new-...
Now THAT would be the perfect super-saloon, if it only came with a manual gearbox.

Turning off the drive of the front wheels is the best of both worlds. Well done AMG! Now stick a manual in it and do it right.;)

ging84

8,832 posts

145 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
ESP is a big factor but there is also 25 years of development into all aspects of motoring safety, and generally everything is built to a far higher standard.
The likely hood of a an estate agent having an accident trying to make progress a 600hp rwd saloon car with no driver aids is probably still similar to what it would have been in the early 90s, but his chances of surviving and/or escaping serious injury in a modern car are so much better (or worse if you don't like estate agents).

J4CKO

Original Poster:

41,287 posts

199 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
ging84 said:
ESP is a big factor but there is also 25 years of development into all aspects of motoring safety, and generally everything is built to a far higher standard.
The likely hood of a an estate agent having an accident trying to make progress a 600hp rwd saloon car with no driver aids is probably still similar to what it would have been in the early 90s, but his chances of surviving and/or escaping serious injury in a modern car are so much better (or worse if you don't like estate agents).
Yeah, potential speed is only part of the equation, the ESP helps ham fisted drivers (including myself) deploy way more power than they have any business having at their disposal, my car will spin its wheels at sixty/seventy miles an hour in the wet (on good tyres) if the gearbox kicks down, the only drama being a little shimmy and the light on the dash, without it and taking liberties that could equal facing the way you came or a swift, unintended lane change.

So, if my car didnt have the electronics I would be very wary of that happening and not trifle with it in the wet, that is with 388 bhp and 391 lb/ft, have tried it without the electronics on in the dry and its fine, actually very predictable but when its wet and cold I am more wary. I think its the kickdown thing that I fond a little ususual, not quite like a manual in terms of fine control.

So, add another 200 odd bhp and a wedge more torque, probably lower down the rev range with FI, things must get pretty squirelly pretty quickly, especially with RWD.

Remember all the accidents the Police had with Sierra Cosworths and the early turbodiesel 325 TDS, the drivers just werent used to all that torque arriving in a big dollop at the back axle and there were no driver aids to pull them out of the mess, even pretty experienced traffic bobbies.

I wonder how the average driver of a 2 tonne 500 bhp plus SUV would get on without the electronics ? has anyone tried say a Cayenne Turbo without the electronics on ?


J4CKO

Original Poster:

41,287 posts

199 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
J4CKO said:
...but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?
ESP is, of course, a legal requirement on everything now.

But you can turn it off. And the drive to the front wheels.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/new-...
Yeah, I am glad it is really,a nd glad it can be turned off, though not something I do often.

Nice they can do stuff where you get the option to make it RWD only, wonder if they can do front only, we learnt about the different handling characteristics as kids as my younger brother had an "Optima mid Custom" RC car, with an E30 M3 body and we used to remove the front or rear driveshafts, gave us a good feel for the three drive layouts.




SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
375hp wasn't the norm back then. It was like a bunch of 130-150hp hot hatches, a 200-250hp saloon here and there then bam.....a 375hp weapon.

For the past decade power has been increasing steadily across all brands, and there are now so many M and RS variants, each 50hp more powerful than the last one, no one really notices or cares anymore. As I've said before in a different thread, it's clearly a last hurrah from car makers before everything goes full electric.


kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Where is this going, surely 600 bhp in a medium sized saloon is enough or is 700 bhp round the corner ? (already here with a simple remap I guess)
700 is already here, the top of the range Tesla Model-S is 762bhp. Bearing in mind that it has a far simpler gearbox setup, it's power at the wheels will be considerably higher than an ICE powered car with the same flywheel power rating.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Model-S with more power at the hubs than a Veyron within the next couple of years.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th October 14:51

OverSteery

3,586 posts

230 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
J4CKO said:

...
What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?
....
My car is alleged to have 550bhp - no ESP fitted and the traction control has been off since I bought it. Despite not being powerfully built (I'm more overweight),or a company director, or a driving God, its really not that hard to drive it without killing myself.

I have to admit if it were auto I might worry about kickdown on a wet road.

Leins

9,422 posts

147 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
SuperchargedVR6 said:
375hp wasn't the norm back then. It was like a bunch of 130-150hp hot hatches, a 200-250hp saloon here and there then bam.....a 375hp weapon
I'll agree it set something of a new benchmark, but there were already quite a number of 300+ bhp "super saloons" on the market when the LC came along e.g. E34 M5, 500E and AMG Hammers, Alpina B10 BiTurbo

In fact the E12 Alpina B7 beat the LC to market as a "turbo nutter saloon" by over a decade, producing 330hp in S-form. Not exactly a common sight I'll grant you though


archie456

417 posts

221 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
What changed?
I think electronics and tyres have made driving cars much easier.

The Lotus Carlton with 'only' 375bhp has a power-to-weight ratio that is 80% of that of the F10 M5. I think that puts it into perspective.

J4CKO

Original Poster:

41,287 posts

199 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
OverSteery said:
J4CKO said:

...
What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?
....
My car is alleged to have 550bhp - no ESP fitted and the traction control has been off since I bought it. Despite not being powerfully built (I'm more overweight),or a company director, or a driving God, its really not that hard to drive it without killing myself.

I have to admit if it were auto I might worry about kickdown on a wet road.
Enthusiasts are a bit different, not always but generally, the fact you know how much power it has is a clue, and which wheels propel it, you know it will give you a kicking if you take liberties, we can all get caught out but by and large most enthusiasts will be aware, doesn't guarantee anything but its a better starting point.

I managed fine with my 944, not that powerful but still 200 odd bhp and no electronics.

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.



kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.
That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

rampageturke

2,622 posts

161 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
Leins said:
I'll agree it set something of a new benchmark, but there were already quite a number of 300+ bhp "super saloons" on the market when the LC came along e.g. E34 M5, 500E and AMG Hammers, Alpina B10 BiTurbo

In fact the E12 Alpina B7 beat the LC to market as a "turbo nutter saloon" by over a decade, producing 330hp in S-form. Not exactly a common sight I'll grant you though

alpina, bmw, AMG, and mercedes at the time were way above the name of vauxhall, who were seen as a manufacturer of small stboxes that everyone knew about

SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
Leins said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
375hp wasn't the norm back then. It was like a bunch of 130-150hp hot hatches, a 200-250hp saloon here and there then bam.....a 375hp weapon
I'll agree it set something of a new benchmark, but there were already quite a number of 300+ bhp "super saloons" on the market when the LC came along e.g. E34 M5, 500E and AMG Hammers, Alpina B10 BiTurbo

In fact the E12 Alpina B7 beat the LC to market as a "turbo nutter saloon" by over a decade, producing 330hp in S-form. Not exactly a common sight I'll grant you though

Ah, I forgot about ze Germans.

Maybe because the Carlton being British, it fired up the usual health & safety nut bags into a frenzy.

Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
quotequote all
/Cough/ 377bhp.

Pedants of Hethel unite.